Dumbing-down?

[David Bailey]

Inspired by a conversation with GarlicGirl (err, Lory) yesterday, I was thinking about levels of dancing. I tailor the level of moves and dancing to the level of my partner (or perceived level if I don’t know her).

So I’ll do basic moves for beginners, and hopefully rise to the challenge of advanced moves for advanced dancers – obviously, the better a partner gets, the more advanced moves I’ll attempt. I always assumed this is the right thing to do, to avoid confusing beginners with weird and wonderful innovations like the FOOFAB (TM) move and to ensure we both enjoy the dance.

But now I’m wondering – is this approach correct? Do others do this? Or am I just being patronising, and should I just do my own thing consistently for all dancers, even if it means stretching them quite a bit?

[MartinHarper]

Mmm, garlic.
Regardless of who I'm dancing with, most of my moves are simple beginner moves. The "dumbing down" or "tailoring" happens with the remainder. This is what works for me - your dancing may vary.

I generally simplify my move selection somewhat when dancing with advanced women. When a girl can make a side-by-side look jaw dropping, it seems kinda silly to be saying "oh yeah? Well I lead this double pretzel walkaround sway!!". Dancing with advanced women is much more reactive, and I'd rather not be busy recalling which hand starts the Accordion Comb Pull Crab at a critical moment.

Moves that are not advanced, merely complex, work well for unreconstructed intermediates. Advanced stuff tends to get a failed lead/follow, and an optional glare. This is a good opportunity to try to remember whatever pointlessly over-complex configurations of arms and legs teacher have come up with this week.

Improving intermediates get a lot of simple advanced moves. It's a good opportunity for me to experiment with some lead/follow concepts, some elements of musicality - that kinda thing. Because they're improving, when I invariably mess up they're not stressed about it. This is where I'd try out a "FOOFAB", for example.

Beginners it's harder to generalise about. Some want to do the class routine a few dozen times. Some want to learn a hundred different moves on their first night. Some want to actually dance. Some are only pretending to be beginners. Regardless, I don't worry too much about being scary or confusing, because I regard that as somewhat inevitable.

[Gadget]

But now I’m wondering – is this approach correct? Do others do this? Or am I just being patronising, and should I just do my own thing consistently for all dancers, even if it means stretching them quite a bit?

Personally, I always try and challenge my partner and push them a little bit. Obviously this falls flat when my partner is way better than me - but that just leads to some very cool "wow" moments in a dance.

[David Bailey]

Personally, I always try and challenge my partner and push them a little bit. Obviously this falls flat when my partner is way better than me - but that just leads to some very cool "wow" moments in a dance.

Yes, I think I should maybe move in the "push" direction myself, I'm probably just being a little lazy sometimes...

[Katie]

Inspired by a conversation with GarlicGirl (err, Lory) yesterday, I was thinking about levels of dancing. I tailor the level of moves and dancing to the level of my partner (or perceived level if I don’t know her).

So I’ll do basic moves for beginners, and hopefully rise to the challenge of advanced moves for advanced dancers – obviously, the better a partner gets, the more advanced moves I’ll attempt. I always assumed this is the right thing to do, to avoid confusing beginners with weird and wonderful innovations like the...snip

But now I’m wondering – is this approach correct? Do others do this? Or am I just being patronising, and should I just do my own thing consistently for all dancers, even if it means stretching them quite a bit?

Your post made me smile for some reason, probably because you think about these things (i'm not saying that others don't ) and that you consider each dancer individually.... that's nice. If it works for you and you are able to remember a large amount of moves of differing degrees of difficulty, then keep it up! I know many men i've danced with over the years who do the same old thing week in week out regardless of the girl's ability or potential even. I suppose i'm guilty of the same thing when I lead as a man but that's kinda different

DavidJames, it isn't always about the moves.... just because you dance with an advanced dancer doesn't mean the moves need to be more complex... play with the music or let the girl do her thing. This has been discussed in lots of other threads.

[David Bailey]

it isn't always about the moves.... just because you dance with an advanced dancer doesn't mean the moves need to be more complex...

Oh yes, and I'm certainly no move monster - I don't generally like lengthy, choreographed or overly-complex moves.

I'm probably using "complex moves" as a shorthand for a blend of improvisations, interpretations and just plain "make it up as I go" which tends to be my approach to dancing with advanced dancers

Other than that, thanks for the advice - I'll try to push a bit more, as I said, but it doesn't appear I'm doing anything wrong. So that's good

[Andreas]

I always test the waters first, if I notice the girl follows well I slightly increase the complexity of the dance. Does not necessariy mean that I increase the difficulty of moves, could be musicality ...

There is little reason to believe that this is a bad approach. The girls I have spoken to usually told me that they like a particular dancer when they first danced with because they could feel he 'tested' how much he could do.

In the past I have been guilty of 'assuming' the level. A girl was recommended to me as being a fabulous dancer. So I through her in at the deep end and it ended up being a not so great dance for either of us: me because I felt she was not as great as I was told, and her because she must have felt like a beginner. The simple reason was because I assumed that she, as a great dancer, would have her weight sorted and follow easily. Well, very fast music, her with her weight back and mostly on a long arm ... it certainly wasn't pretty. Had I slowly tested her it could have been a really nice dance because she certainly was a nice dancer.

[David Bailey]

In the past I have been guilty of 'assuming' the level.

I've done that too - I usually base my guess on clothes though.

It's stupid, I know, but I've occasionally find myself getting a bit miffed if a girl dresses in "serious dancer" outfit* but turns out to be a beginner, all my assumptions get shot to hell. Stupid because, of course, she can wear what she wants, and my misconceptions shouldn't be her problem. I try not to let that show!

Blimey, all this thinking, it's amazing I can even do a first move sometimes...

* Don't ask me what this is, but I know it when I see it.

[Katie]

I've done that too - I usually base my guess on clothes though.
It's stupid, I know, but I've occasionally find myself getting a bit miffed if a girl dresses in "serious dancer" outfit* but turns out to be a beginner

Maybe this could be a new thread......along the lines of 'what we wear gives the impression that....'?

[stewart38]

I've done that too - I usually base my guess on clothes though.

It's stupid, I know, but I've occasionally find myself getting a bit miffed if a girl dresses in "serious dancer" outfit* but turns out to be a beginner, all my assumptions get shot to hell. Stupid because, of course, she can wear what she wants, and my misconceptions shouldn't be her problem. I try not to let that show!

This has happened to me ! Ive had great dancing with women dressed 'plainly' and those in shiny sequins not so good

[jivecat]

"serious dancer" outfit*..................

* Don't ask me what this is, but I know it when I see it.

I've just got to ask you (or anyone) what this is in case I need to rush out and buy one now.

[David Bailey]

I've just got to ask you (or anyone) what this is in case I need to rush out and buy one now.

Slightly serious mode, I think it's more a "look" than a set of clothes... So, I dunno, maybe clothes and shoes that are clearly appropriate for dancing in; usually trousers*, dance-able shoes**, a top that isn't going to fall off the shoulder with too many spins*** - all of it still looking good, of course.

Boy, that's what I call a loose description... Told you not to ask me


* with the honorable exception of such ladies as ZW, who makes her own rules of course
** Don't have to be black-and-white!
*** - Unless it's supposed to

[El Salsero Gringo]

Slightly serious mode, I think it's more a "look" than a set of clothes... So, I dunno, maybe clothes and shoes that are clearly appropriate for dancing in; usually trousers*, dance-able shoes**, a top that isn't going to fall off the shoulder with too many spins*** - all of it still looking good, of course.

Boy, that's what I call a loose description... Told you not to ask me


* with the honorable exception of such ladies as ZW, who makes her own rules of course
** Don't have to be black-and-white!
*** - Unless it's supposed to

David, just a quick polite request here: would you please quit with the asterisks? It's bloody hard to put your wonderful posts back together after you've cut them into chunks and distributed them all over the page. It would be so much nicer to have all the words in their natural order, so be a good chap, and oblige me... So kind, so very kind. Thank you, thank you.

(what a lovely chap that DavidJames is, really he is. And did you know his trousers are bigger on the inside than on the outside? You didn't know? They are, honestly.)

[David Bailey]

David, just a quick polite request here: would you please quit with the asterisks? It's bloody hard to put your wonderful posts back together after you've cut them into chunks and distributed them all over the page. It would be so much nicer to have all the words in their natural order, so be a good chap, and oblige me... So kind, so very kind. Thank you, thank you.

Hey, I can quit any time*

* No I can't

[Trish]

Maybe this could be a new thread......along the lines of 'what we wear gives the impression that....'?

The female equivalent to the "men in black" thread - ie Men in Black are the ones you think are going to be good dancers, the middle aged ones in beige trousers are the ones you avoid! Not always good advice though, I danced with a really bad MIB the other day, and one of my favourite dancers is beige trousered! Can't remember if it mentions women's dress sense in that thread, or it keeps to the men.

[Katie]

The female equivalent to the "men in black" thread - ie Men in Black are the ones you think are going to be good dancers, the middle aged ones in beige trousers are the ones you avoid! .

Ah I see, I have not read that thread.

[Clive Long]

Warning - alcohol-fuelled posting coming up

<< snip >>
a top that isn't going to fall off the shoulder with too many spins*** - all of it still looking good, of course.
<< snip >>

Another bang-on-the-money post from David James of the North London posse.

Why, oh why, oh why do ladies wear strappy tops with "vertical" straps front to back when dancing, then fiddle with them throughout a dance as the straps slip over their shoulders??? (oh, go on, for those who want one)

Please wear lycra (if crop-topped, then evidence there is a god) or halter-neck or straps that cross-over at the back. No fiddling with straps when dancing with me.

::ducks::

Clive

[MartinHarper]

.....

[David Bailey]

OK, due to overwhelming popular demand, I've started the What women wear thread...