It annoys me most when someone...

[David Bailey]

I have never, ever,ever, seen MJ in any of its forms taught as travelling in a circle. ...
So if you find you are dancing in a circle it is because you are not doing what you were taught.

I usually dance in a circular way, but maybe I'm just doing it wrong, too old to change now though

It certainly feels like a circle-style dance. I guess the reason it's taught "slotted" is simple practicality - you can fit more people in rows than in a big circle, and it's easier to remember?

So (in a last desparate effort to remain OT), are circular dancers more annoying than "slotty" ones?

[TheTramp]

Sorry - MJ is naturally a circular dance. If it was naturally a slotted dance, then everyone would do it slotted, and you wouldn't have to actively keep it slotted.

Sorry. Disagree....

MJ is both a slotted, AND a circular dance. Depending on who is doing it. My own style is much more for the slotted dance. And there are plenty of people who naturally do it that way - and for me, from way before I'd even heard of the difference or tried any specific slotted dancing.

Just to add, that I don't think it's wrong, doing it in either way. It's just a personal preference....

[Gadget]

If the dance floor is that crowded, then you start doing blusier moves - I have no problem with that If there is a lot of space, you cen get a bit more flamboyant in moves and stylings {I also have no problem with that }. I can't say that any dancer's floorcraft annoys me while they are dancing.

I am annoyed by tracks being cut short or blended into each other.

I am annoyed by disco lights blinding me in lessons.

I am annoyed by the one or two smokers that are inconsiderate.

and it annoys me that fruit juce is twice the price of any other drink.

Assides from that, I'm really difficult to wind up (honest!)

[MartinHarper]

I have never, ever, ever, seen MJ in any of its forms taught as travelling in a circle.

One MJ teacher local to me often says that dancing in lines is a convenience for the class and that "in freestyle it doesn't matter if you don't get all the way round" (etc).

[David Franklin]

Sorry - MJ is naturally a circular dance. If it was naturally a slotted dance, then everyone would do it slotted, and you wouldn't have to actively keep it slotted.

Given that it is taught in a slot, I think there's room to suggest the circular nature is more bad technique than anything else. Certainly among the dancers I consider "advanced", slot dancing is more the norm, rather than the exception. (And I think you'll see the same thing if you look at successful competitors).

WCS is naturally a slotted dance. It is very hard to make it rotate.

I don't pretend to know much about the history of WCS, but I do have a DVD with some of the early US Open routines. And if you look at the earliest classic routines (e.g. Joe Marchione and Patricia Michaels in 1984), the dance is hardly slotted at all. The woman goes 'round' the man in much the same way as MJ. Obviously as WCS is taught now (or even 15 years ago), it would be very hard to rotate it. WCS has changed and evolved - and I think a lot of the parallel changes are happening with MJ.

[Chef]

A bit harsh, and incorrect, to boot. There are many MJ moves that involve the follower walking around the leader, or the two dancers rotating around each other. Coming back to the same starting point is merely a convenience to make a lesson in rows practical, not an intrinsic feature of MJ.

If you really want to pursue the "your fault for not following the lesson" line then you would have to conclude it's the WCS dancer's fault - since WCS is never ever ever ever taught at Ceroc classes.

Chef, I hope your day rapidly improves from this point onwards!

The moves that involve the partners walking around each other have always been taught so that the end of the move results in the partners ending up back within theri dance slots. It is convenient in class situations that this happens so that the whole class ends up not walking over each other. It also happens that it is also convenient in freestyle that the whole room does not end up walking on each other. It is an intrinsic feature of MJ because that is the way it is taught and it is taught that way because it works that way.

The only reason that people whizz around in circles bashing people out of the way is because they can't dance the dance they were taught. It is nothing about there being a natural momentum in the clockwise direction, just that the blokes won't get out of the womans line of dance and so forces them to go around the man in a clockwise direction - it then becomes a habit. Which is why MJ women have extreme difficulty being led down the mans left hand side.

As for the other WCS dancer being in the wrong for dancing a slotted dance on your dance floor. It is each couples responsibility to avoid invading another couples dance space. It is not for them to get out of your way because you are careening out of control across the dance floor.

It is true that I have never seen WCS taught at Ceroc classes. I have seen tango, cha cha, samba, and hip hop taught quite regulary at Ceroc classes. I have also been told that Argetine tango "Ochos" are a new Ceroc registered move. Really! a 150 year old move is now a Ceroc registered move? Why not register the whole of waltz while you are at it. Be that it as it may. It still doesn't give you excuse for crashing into someone elses dance space just because you don't have the discipline to dance the dance you were taught.

[QOUTE=alex]Since when has cha cha been a slotted dance? I doubt you could even force it into a slot if you tried. [/QUOTE]

It has always been a slotted dance. It is just that the line of dance runs parallel or perpendicular to the mans body. One or both partners can orbit each other but the move always returns to the origional line of dance. Perhaps your experience of cha cha has been watching as it has been danced (badly) rather than watching it as it has been taught, in a similar way to MJ is not danced as it is taught and that is where the confusion lies.

[Chef]

One MJ teacher local to me often says that dancing in lines is a convenience for the class and that "in freestyle it doesn't matter if you don't get all the way round" (etc).

Does he also say that it doesn't matter which foot you step back on?

I don't suppose it really matters to your local MJ teacher if people are crashing into each other as long as nothing happen that they can be sued for. They have, after all, excercised their duty of care by teaching it to you correctly. If it doesn't matter if you don't get all the way around then why bother teaching it at all? Why not just say something like "turn around as far as you feel like"

When I explain Nuclear Magentic Resonance spectroscsopy to sixth formers I don't explain it to them in terms of quantum spin states. When their level of understanding increases to a level when they can grasp its importance I will will explain that to them.

The level of coaching increases with the competance of the student. Making the steps on the learning ladder too big just discourages the student but the end point of the ladder should not change.

[El Salsero Gringo]

My. We are in a tizz, aren't we?

{Big snip}

{another snip}

{slightly smaller snip}

It is not for them to get out of your way because you are careening out of control across the dance floor.

Aha! So you *have* been watching me dance! What did you think of my "controlled falling-over before hitting the wall" technique? Cute, no?

It is true that I have never seen WCS taught at Ceroc classes. I have seen tango, cha cha, samba, and hip hop taught quite regulary at Ceroc classes. I have also been told that Argetine tango "Ochos" are a new Ceroc registered move. Really! a 150 year old move is now a Ceroc registered move? Why not register the whole of waltz while you are at it.

Can you tell me what you mean by a "registered move"? Registered with whom? In what kind of register? And for what purpose? I've never heard of such a thing, and I doubt it exists. If on the other hand you mean, an 'official' move that Ceroc internally recommend to their teachers with a formal teaching method, then great! About bloody time too!

Be that it as it may. It still doesn't give you excuse for crashing into someone elses dance space just because you don't have the discipline to dance the dance you were taught.

Quite right. It all comes down to discipline. That's what we need more of. Discipline.

[Sheepman]

It's quite annoying when threads go so off slot, sorry I mean off thread, that it's all been discussed before, for example slotted dancing
Greg

[bobgadjet]

If the dance floor is that crowded, then you start doing blusier moves - I have no problem with that If there is a lot of space, you cen get a bit more flamboyant in moves and stylings {I also have no problem with that }. I can't say that any dancer's floorcraft annoys me while they are dancing.

I am annoyed by tracks being cut short or blended into each other.

I am annoyed by disco lights blinding me in lessons.

I am annoyed by the one or two smokers that are inconsiderate.

and it annoys me that fruit juce is twice the price of any other drink.

Assides from that, I'm really difficult to wind up (honest!)

Easy to annoy though

I think it's about time the govenment got control of drinks prices and put a lid on what can be charged for non-alcoholic drinks.
Why don't they state that non-alcoholic drinks CANNOT be more than 60% of the price of a similar sized beer, ie: pint for pint?

[alex]

Given that it is taught in a slot, I think there's room to suggest the circular nature is more bad technique than anything else.

By the same token it is taught with a "semi circle with the hand and step back". So is the semi-circle good technique?

Certainly among the dancers I consider "advanced", slot dancing is more the norm, rather than the exception.

There are a few who dance in a slot, but there are quite a few who don't. The only advanced dancer I know on first name terms does MJ in a slot because he always dances at the edge of the floor for safety reasons.

And I think you'll see the same thing if you look at successful competitors

Aren't they told to do that so that they always present it to the judges? The whole dancing in a slot came from Dean Collins doing Lindy for films. It was done because it looked better for the camera. It had nothing to do with crowded dance floors or a good skill for advanced dancers to learn.

I don't pretend to know much about the history of WCS, but I do have a DVD with some of the early US Open routines. And if you look at the earliest classic routines (e.g. Joe Marchione and Patricia Michaels in 1984), the dance is hardly slotted at all. The woman goes 'round' the man in much the same way as MJ.

I've seen that DVD. It is from the US Open Swing Dance Championships. The rules have always allowed any style of Swing, so it doesn't have to be WCS. Ryan Francois and Sing Lim competed in the '90s doing Lindy. Michael Norris has won it doing Carolina Shag. I never figured out what the early showcase couples were doing, but it looked more like a cross between Lindy and Rock'n'Roll than West Coast Swing. I have to admit though my main recollection of the first part of the DVD was embarrassment at the costumes.

I have nothing against dancing in a slot. My only complaint was people expecting a full-length slot to be theirs for the entire dance, at the expense of other couples dancing on a crowded floor.

Perhaps your experience of cha cha has been watching as it has been danced (badly) rather than watching it as it has been taught

No. It has been from learning it from an ISTD qualified teacher, and watching people like Sammy Stopford & Barbara McCall demonstrating a basic Cha Cha. (I'm showing my age now!)

It still doesn't give you excuse for crashing into someone elses dance space just because you don't have the discipline to dance the dance you were taught.

Neither does it give them the right to crash into me just because they are doing what they have been taught irrespective of how crowded the floor is.

And I was taught that MJ is circular. Originally by Janie and more recently by DavidB.

The only space you have any right to is the space you are currently occupying. A MJ dancer who is dancing in a circular fashion doesn't have exclusive rights to a circle 5 feet in radius around the man. By a similar token a couple dancing in a slot (WCS or MJ) doesn't have exclusive rights to 5 feet of space immediately behind the man. You use it if it is there. You do something else if it isn't. If everyone was being nice then here would be enough spare room for everyone to have a good dance.


Alex

[David Bailey]

Quite right. It all comes down to discipline. That's what we need more of. Discipline.

Yes, so stay on-thread, you slob

I've decided what annoys me most is thread mutation.

I think it's about time the govenment got control of drinks prices and put a lid on what can be charged for non-alcoholic drinks.
Why don't they state that non-alcoholic drinks CANNOT be more than 60% of the price of a similar sized beer, ie: pint for pint?

You too!
Oh, OK then, I can never resist a good whinge.... The profit margin on soft drinks is massive, much more than on alcoholic drinks (especially the dodgy soft drinks at Ashtons ). I'm always surprised that venue organisers don't cotton on to the fact that MJ dancers don't drink alcohol, and get their act together when it comes to soft drinks. A soft drinks "bar" like at Hipsters is fine for at least 90% of dancers, and costs so much less to set up.

Hey, at least I heroically resisted the temptation to dive into the slot debate (although I resent being told I have bad technique, especially if it's true...)

[David Franklin]

I think it's about time the govenment got control of drinks prices and put a lid on what can be charged for non-alcoholic drinks.
Why don't they state that non-alcoholic drinks CANNOT be more than 60% of the price of a similar sized beer, ie: pint for pint?

Worst offender I've seen is a certain venue we both know well that (often) only serves coke in 125ml bottles at roughly 7 pounds per pint. Maybe it's just me, but I find almost all the prices absolutely shocking there. And then they wonder why people sneak in bottles of water (which I don't condone, but I understand the temptation).

[ChrisA]

When I explain Nuclear Magentic Resonance spectroscsopy to sixth formers I don't explain it to them in terms of quantum spin states. When their level of understanding increases to a level when they can grasp its importance I will will explain that to them.

Actually been working today, so haven't been reading the forum till now.

But I'd like to nominate Chef as "fave forum member of the day" for providing humour (well, it's amused me ), and for saving me a ton of typing.



Just to stir the pot a little, two points that haven't been made for a while:

A lot of the circular nature of MJ that happens "naturally" (as opposed to being led) happens because a lot of ladies can't do a return on the spot. They invariably travel a little during the return, thus rotating the slot a bit. Do this every couple of moves, and of course the slot rotates and the dance becomes circular.

But it is poor technique (not just from the ladies; a lot of guys just don't lead a return on the spot, but I'm not sure if this is just taking the line of least resistance ) - and it leads to floorcraft problems too. This is because when the lady rotates out of the slot, unled, the guy will not have been able to ensure that the space she's moving into is clear, because he can't predict where she's going.

All that said, Amir sometimes teaches a circular style of MJ, as a specific stylistic variation on dancing in a slot. But it's got a different look and feel, from the randomly revolving nature of a lot of MJ dancing.

For the record, I have no objection to intentionally rotating the slot through any arbitrary angle to suit the conditions, the dancers, or anything else for that matter. But it works much better, and reduces the risk of collisions, if it's led and followed.

[frodo]

I'd hate it too- at a WCS night. But at a MJ night you could argue that WCS dancers have no right to expect their slot to be reserved for them, especially when they only occupy 50% of it at any one time.
MJ on a busy floor is dependent on people fitting the gaps that other people have just left. Otherwise you would get far fewer people on the floor. So why should WCS dancers be entitled to more room than anyone else?

(was quoted inside bobgadjet's post below)

Eerrrrm, scuse me, but I AM making a comment about dancing in the FREESTYLE session of the night.
I take that to mean ANY style of dance that fits the music, and the space available.
If a cha cha cha came on, and I had a particular passion to dance a cha cha cha with the partner I may have specifically chosen as she also might want to cha cha cha, then a cha cha cha I will do.
I was led to believe, so are many others, WCS in particular was designed to take up so much less space on the floor to any other form of jive. This has been demonstrated to me during lessons on many occasions.

Provided the music is right, if a dancefloor is very busy, I choose to WCS BECAUSE it takes up less space.

Anyway I was making a point MORE ABOUT those who, when I am dancing along the side of the floor, walk or dance THRU the space I am taking.

By your reply I would expect that "on a MJ night" you would not want anybody doing a rumba, or a cha cha cha, or a lindy, or a ballroom jive, or anything BUT MJ

I think it might be put that you can't expect people at a modern jive night to understand WCS ect. dances in a slot etc. and so what space should be your space.

[Little Monkey]

If the dance floor is that crowded, then you start doing blusier moves - I have no problem with that

I would have a problem with that - if it was to fast music (swing, rock'n'roll etc). Bluesy moves are good for bluesy music.... Or at least slower music....

If the music is fast (or there's limited space on the floor), there's lots of other ways of taking up less space on the floor, like doing less travelling moves, keeping arms "short", girls could try to spin more on the spot etc etc etc.... List could go on and on, but I'm too tired to think.....

LM

[Gadget]

If the music is fast (or there's limited space on the floor), there's lots of other ways of taking up less space on the floor,

If it's fast music and that crowded, I will dance in a corredor, on the carpet, somewhere between seats, ... (if everyone is on the floor, there's bound to be some space off it somewhere! )
Fast track generally means lots of spins and blocks with a tighter, closer lead anyway; if it resorts to "combat dancing", then it's no longer fun - and if I'm not having fun, what's the point of dancing?

[Little Monkey]

If it's fast music and that crowded, I will dance in a corredor, on the carpet, somewhere between seats, ... (if everyone is on the floor, there's bound to be some space off it somewhere! )

Fast track generally means lots of spins and blocks with a tighter, closer lead anyway; if it resorts to "combat dancing", then it's no longer fun - and if I'm not having fun, what's the point of dancing?

Good boy.

And yeah, dancing has to be FUN, or what's the point??!!

LM

[ChrisA]

I think it might be put that you can't expect people at a modern jive night to understand WCS ect. dances in a slot etc. and so what space should be your space.

The vast majority of people that dance Ceroc or any other variant of MJ have done every lesson they've ever participated in, in a slot.

This is slightly harder than not giving a damn about your orientation, and, give that floorcraft is very rarely taught, people tend to revert to the slightly easier circular dancing.

You don't have to understand WCS to dance in a slot, just do it the way you were taught in the class.

[Chef]

OK guys. You do what you want. The bottom line is that if you dance out of my dance slot then I can guarantee not to hit you, if you whizz around like a dervish then I can't. Your choice.

I will be talking to DavidB about him teaching the dancing in random directions assertion by Alex. I have never seen David and Lilly dance like that, nor have I ever heard them teach this. My Monday night dance teachers (who teach me Cha Cha) are also ISTD qualified so maybe the teaching method has changed over the years. I am not sure what Anton Du Bekes' qualifications are.

I have no problem dancing on crowded dance floors. I am a survivor of Camber many times over, after all. Crowded is one thing. Poor floor craft is another, Not being able to dance without falling over is yet another thing.

ESG. No I haven't knowingly see you dance but if yours is an accurate description of your own dancing then I can say I have seen many many examples of it, and no, it isn't cute.