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Thread: Footwork

  1. #21
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    I think it's great there's NO specific foot work you HAVE to do, this way, everyone gets to develop their own unique style.

    If we had to the same footwork all the time and there was a right and wrong way, we'd end up like robots!

    Just to contradict myself, I do feel a great sense of achievement when I follow/mirror a mans footwork though some intricate manoeuvre though.
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    I keep seeing this argument (or variants), and I'm sorry, but I think it's ridiculous. To take it to the obvious extreme, I've invented a new dance form, inarguably the best ever:

    • No footwork rules - we all know beginners find footwork hard, and by having no rules the experts can do any footwork from any dance.
    • No beat requirements - dancing on the beat is hard too. Besides, by having no requirements, we're not limited to 4/4 music like so many other dances.
    • No set moves - remembering moves is hard. Besides, by not having a set list of moves, you can use any move from any other style.


    Clearly anything you can do in MJ, you can do in my style (in honour of the month, I think I'll give it the traditional name of Lirpa Loof), plus you can waltz or do freestyle wrestling in my style as well, so it must be better...

    Funnily enough, the queue of people outside my front door waiting to learn this style hasn't materialised. I don't understand it. Maybe it's because you need some level of structure if you want certain things to work well?
    And your "new" dance differs from my MJ in what way?

  3. #23
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    And your "new" dance differs from my MJ in what way?
    Obviously, it's new and improved Lirpa Loof, not old boring Ceroc. Come, on, pay attention

  4. #24
    Registered User Katie's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    I think it's great there's NO specific foot work you HAVE to do, this way, everyone gets to develop their own unique style.

    If we had to the same footwork all the time and there was a right and wrong way, we'd end up like robots!

    This is why I love MJ so much, you can choose to put fancy footwork in, especially when the guy lets you improvise. With Ballroom dancing, I became fed up with being told where to put my feet and arms - I do however, love to watch it!

  5. #25
    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget

    The "Ceroc bounce" is something I don't think I have witnessed/experianced too much - as such, I don't consider it a problem.
    I do. Far too many syncopated, metronomic, horizontally challenged ladies reared on a diet of monotomously vertical club music.

    Fortunately, there are exceptions.

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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Bad dancers, of all forms, end up bouncing every time they take a step. It is this problem that gives rise to the "MJ bounce" - the technique-lite approach of MJ allows it to flourish. Because Lindy uses triple steps, bad Lindy dancers look bouncier than bad MJ dancers. The standard of MJ at an MJ venue tends to be higher than the standard of Lindy at an MJ (sic) venue. I suspect this is why Lindy has a reputation as being "bouncy" amongst Ceroc folks.

    IMHO some dances may or may not be bouncy, but what is unpleasent as a lady following is having your hand / arm bounced up and down. I was once told that although people perceive Lindy as being bouncy it is so from the feet, but the lead is smooth.

  7. #27
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I think Lynn was referring to the fact...
    Or Lou even?

  8. #28
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    Or Lou even?
    Yeah, her too.













    (oops.)

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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitebeard
    {re: bouncing} I do. Far too many syncopated, metronomic, horizontally challenged ladies reared on a diet of monotomously vertical club music.
    Just thinking a bit more on this and how it relates to footwork: Since there is no footwork pattern to mark time with the beat, the MJ dancer marks time with their hands; the timing of the moves, each postion on a beat, the changes of direction,... So perhaps this would explain the 'bounce'? just marking time with the hands because people are not shown any footwork to mark time with?

  10. #30
    Registered User Whitebeard's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget

    Originally Posted by Whitebeard
    {re: bouncing} I do. Far too many syncopated, metronomic, horizontally challenged ladies reared on a diet of monotomously vertical club music.
    I was a bit scathing there (emulating the dreaded one) , wasn't I ? Certainly didn't mean to imply there are a lot of these overly bouncy ladies; it's just that one is too many. Plenty of fellas offend in this way too and, because men are usually stronger, I've often watched and wondered and sympathised with the ladies in the vicelike grip* of such a partner.

    * The vicelike grip and bounce pretty well go together I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget

    Just thinking a bit more on this and how it relates to footwork: Since there is no footwork pattern to mark time with the beat, the MJ dancer marks time with their hands; the timing of the moves, each postion on a beat, the changes of direction,... So perhaps this would explain the 'bounce'? just marking time with the hands because people are not shown any footwork to mark time with?
    I don't know, you're the analyst; in a dance I'm just wondering what to do next and, if in the clutches of a bouncer, longing for the music to stop. You may have something there. Do they bounce to the beat?, to the half-beat?, or to both? I've gone into denial.

    In the beginning it was all hands and feet. How to retain hand contact through all those turny spinny things without bones breaking, and what on earth to do with those feet when 'teach' didn't tell. But, gradually, these issues resolved themselves. Almost imperceptabley the feet started to look after themselves (most of the time anyway) and one night you find yourself going through a series of moves with barely fingertip to fingertip contact with your partner. That is sublime.

    I highlighted the bouncers but there are many ladies, and these include beginners too, who really are pure delight to dance with; smooth, light, responsive. They make me feel good about myself.

  11. #31
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Just thinking a bit more on this and how it relates to footwork: Since there is no footwork pattern to mark time with the beat, the MJ dancer marks time with their hands; the timing of the moves, each postion on a beat, the changes of direction,... So perhaps this would explain the 'bounce'? just marking time with the hands because people are not shown any footwork to mark time with?
    I have noticed this with some guys - I have seen them 'lose' the beat and then 'find' it again by bouncing their hands up and down (and often their arms and body too). I don't have to think about the beat at all, its just 'there', so it took me a while to figure out this was what they were doing. And to be honest I would rather dance with a 'bouncy' lead who was on the beat than one who didn't bounce but danced off the beat. (Of course a bouncy lead off the beat isn't too comfortable!)

    Its often the same with 'footwork' for me. I don't think about it, its just there, the music seems to ask for it and my feet move to fit a certain part in the song. Maybe I should start to think about it more...

  12. #32
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    Re: Footwork

    Ok, lets get down to some facts, then debate.

    In UK for some reason, the establishment likes to tout the line that there is no Ceroc footwork, which is their line, but it is not the truth. What is true is this: they truly dont TEACH it, but they still do it.

    YOU will acknowledge that we step to a 4/4 time (commonly heard as the teacher brings you in on "5-6-7-8!" (or "5&6&7&8")

    Now, when they count us in using "5 and 6 and 7 and 8" (I know there are other ways but this is prevalent) the "number" is a step (or step replacement by a suitable pause), so too is the "AND" is a step. (or associated pause, as you please).

    Now lets look at those first two beats or steps..

    Once they count you in "7 & 8" you then commence by doing your prescribed "semi circle for beginners" to start the move as you step back on the "AND" and you will then take a step (or a selected associated pause) on what would be the "one"

    You are stepping or you are pausing... If you arent doing this then you are dancing off the beat.

    SO to the common count of " &1 &2 &3 &4 &5 &6 &7 &8 " there are 16 beats = 16 steps (or a combination of steps and assocaited pauses that will equivalently match the 16)

    If you arent doing this then you are dancing off the beat. If you fancy yourself as an advanced / uninhibited freestyler, you can of course work in some additional combinations of pauses, triple steps, double times etc, but you will still acknowledge they fit into the same beat framework over the song.

    SO if you arent sticking to that beat, then you are doing something else. But not MJ. Maybe Lindy / Slasle etc etc but not MJ.

    THEN once you have the structure of the beat and the footwork, you can start to ignore it and do slower (double beat / quad beat) steps.

    For those of you who say there is no footwork, what beat do you move back on? (HINT: "AND 1" = 2 beats for the backward movement)

    I look forward to seeing you doubtful people in person and observing tuthfully what you are doing, lets do it, and I will show you that you are doing 16 beats with a combination of 16 steps or associated pauses to a standard 4/4 ceroc / MJ song.

    Modern Jive DOES have footwork.

    MJ is NOT a salsa step (but you can throw them in)
    MJ is NOT a Lindy step (but you can...)
    MJ is NOT a triple step (blah blah)
    MJ is NOT a cha cha (yada yada)
    MJ is NOT etc, etc etc (but you can orrow from these) and so you will start to see the picture building up by ruling some others out.

    Anyway, I look forward to hearing how you explain the beats and the feet in other terms.. if you can.

    And as for the ceroc bounce, oh my lord! What is with it over here?? Who's idea was it? Hey, have fun, and bounce from time to time, but try not to bounce for every beat of every song!! PLEASE!

    You might disagree with me on the above points, but it will come down to the fact that if you were standing in front of me in a room and doing whatever footwork you like, and I was counting, it will all come out as the same thing.
    16 beat bars = 16 steps or step / pause combinations.

    Stand up in front of your computer, put a tune on, and count yourself in to a few starts before you reply.. see how the 16 beat combinations work.. then hit me with your thoughts. If you have another way to explain it I am very keen to hear it.

    All the best

    Simon B (Aussie Instructor)

  13. #33
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by Simonsays
    Now, when they count us in using "5 and 6 and 7 and 8" the "number" is a step.
    No. A step is when I move my foot from one position to another position and transfer weight onto it. A number is a concept used in arithmetic. A number is not a step. Even in Australia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simonsays
    You then commence by [stepping] back on the "AND" and you will then take a step (or a selected associated pause) on what would be the "one".
    No. I come from a JazzJive/Lindy background. I typically do a weight transfer or a stomp-off on the "AND", and then take a rock step on the following "one AND". Alternatively, I'll do a "prepare" on the "AND", followed by a twist-twist on "one AND". Then again, I might do something else. Sometimes I don't move my feet at all, but just shift my weight a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simonsays
    I look forward to hearing how you explain the beats and the feet in other terms.
    Ok.

    1) The beats are the things in the music.
    2) The feet are the things on the end of your legs.
    3) Your body should ideally reflect the music in some way.
    4) One way to reflect the music in your body is to step on every beat, like you're in the army. This is cool.
    5) There are lots of other ways. They are also cool.

  14. #34
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    Re: Footwork

    what Martin says.
    Quote Originally Posted by SimonSays
    In UK for some reason, the establishment likes to tout the line that there is no Ceroc footwork, which is their line, but it is not the truth. What is true is this: they truly dont TEACH it, but they still do it.
    The "Ceroc Two-step"? where the foot is placed to mark the beat (alternate beat to be precise), like marching. This is not footwork: this is marking the time with the feet. Like marching.
    Unlike marching however, we can add in some stylistic elements and change the timing to be whatever we feel suits the music. It does not have to be placing the foot on every count. The timing of the placement can be delayed, snappy, strutting, sliding,... it can skip a count, go on half-counts, insert a pattern (like tripple steps), remain rooted if desired,...
    It can do any of these. However, they are not part of the 'core' elements that make Modern Jive: they are style and movement highlights to musical inspiration.

    You are stepping or you are pausing... If you arent doing this then you are dancing off the beat.
    To say that the feet have to mark every beat to be dancing on-time is a little nieve. I was going to write "nonsense", but thinking on it, yes - there are loads of times that I do not mark the beat. Especially with my feet. However I have never been accused of dancing out of time and can only rmrmber two occasions in {..erm...} lots of years where my timing has clashed with my partners - which is what your "off the beat" seems to be suggesting.

    Modern Jive DOES have footwork.
    No; it has advice on how to move to get your body into a better position. But there is no specific technique to the placement of the feet, no specific movement of the body that synchronises with the feet, no specific weight distribution or movement. In fact, the only common thing between your definition of "Ceroc Footwork" and any other style of dance's footwork is that they both move their feet in order to move their body.

    Sure - there is common ground between all forms of dance, (and martial arts) that governs movement, weight distribution, and moving the feet to position the body: this may be taught, but to say that it's "footwork" is {IMHO} streaching the definition.

    Anyway, I look forward to hearing how you explain the beats and the feet in other terms.. if you can.
    Beats? - they are the marking points of rhythm in music.
    Feet? - those things at the ends of your legs that stop you from falling over.
    Where they meet? - wherever you want. Or don't want.
    It's a simple thing to teach beginners to march to mark time. Like it's a simple thing to teach beginner men that you move your hand and the lady follows it. You teach patterns to follow with the hands to lead the lady (ie moves). Just because you know the pattern, does that mean you know how to lead? That you must stick with that pattern? That you must mark every position in a move with a hesitation as is seen on stage?
    Why must feet follow a set pattern? Why must every step/beat be marked out?

  15. #35
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    No. A step is when I move my foot from one position to another position and transfer weight onto it. A number is a concept used in arithmetic. A number is not a step. Even in Australia.
    Martin, you're just being argumentative. You know exactly what he means.

    Simon - the bit you've completely skated over is the concept of weight-shifting. For what it's worth, the bit that's almost totally absent from Ceroc tuition, at least in this country, is the concept of moving your body-weight from one standing leg to the other without taking a step. It might not be strictly footwork, but it certainly isn't 'armwork' so it might as well be considered in this thread, and in fact, Martin mentions it in his post.

    Moving on:
    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    4) One way to reflect the music in your body is to step on every beat, like you're in the army. This is cool.
    Actually I think stepping on each beat like you're in the army ("marching") is extremely uncool. I wonder if a bit more attention paid to "weight transfer" would help?

  16. #36
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    Re: Footwork

    have read much of this thread with interest - and have to say that I find the concept of there being no footwork in Ceroc a very disturbing concept

    Perhaps it is a UK thing - but here in the land down under as a beginner you are taught specific foot work for specific moves for example

    first move
    - girls step back left, guys step back right then both step in feet together side to side
    -then as the guy opens the lady out both pivot on their inside foot stepping back with their out side foot( guys left girls right)
    -then as the guy brings the girl to face him he steps back with his right foot (getting it out of the ladies way) bringing his feet together - the girl pivots on her left foot
    -following on from here the the guy turns the lady, stepping back left. the lady does this turn on her right foot ending up back right)
    -finally the move is completed by a return - the lady turning on her left foot finishing back left and the guy stepping back right.

    This is not complicated footwork by any stretch of the imagination and causes beginners to transfer their weight in the right directions hence making much of the move feel more natural.

    Obviously once you know the moves and as you progress to intermediate and then advanced moves and style etc - then you can bend, meld the steps to suit the music, your mood and space.

    For me it is a case of you have to know the rules before you can break them.

    I think that if you aren't being taught foot work from the get-go you are being gypped - as while MJ does only have simple stepping foot work - it does have footwork!

  17. #37
    Registered User Doc Iain's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    I think the idea behind ceroc being "sold" as a dance with little or no footwork is that there is no repetative constant foot movement as in say: Rock and roll, Jive, Salsa or (i believe) Lindy Hop or WCS... of course it does have footwork though, but it is easy to learn and tends on the whole to follow thge upper body work and therefore often falls into place when teaching beginners. Now as one gets better you can do as much or a little extra as you want. Personally I love the walky moves... bit of a tango or waltz never did anyone any harm :p

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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Martin, you're just being argumentative. You know exactly what he means.
    Actually, I don't. I can make a few educated guesses, but I could well be wrong, so I'd prefer that he told me. Is it that a number is when Cerocers should step? Is it that a number is when Australian Cerocers are taught to step? Is it that the numbers in the counts are somehow conceptually representing steps? Is it that, during the count-in, we should all be marching to the count? Is it something else?

    Sorry, but I really am this stupid.

  19. #39
    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by Yliander
    For me it is a case of you have to know the rules before you can break them.

    I think that if you aren't being taught foot work from the get-go you are being gypped - as while MJ does only have simple stepping foot work - it does have footwork!
    Yliander, I think we've taken it as given that we've all learnt the footwork that's taught as part of the moves, and you will have read my post on that subject. The point that's being made is that there's no single footwork pattern common to all the moves and fixed in time with the music as there is in Lindy (rock-step, triple-step, triple-step etc.) or Salsa (one-two-three, five-six-seven), Cha Cha, or many other styles of dance.

    Don't panic. No-one is being gypped here in the UK. We *do* have competent teachers here too, you know.

  20. #40
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Footwork

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Yliander, I think we've taken it as given that we've all learnt the footwork that's taught as part of the moves, and you will have read my post on that subject. .
    Ahhh.. but my Gringo friend, in Australia, and in Bristol, specific footwork is emphatically taught. I taught it myself last night at St Bon's. But, to the best of my knowledge, this footwork isn't taught elsewhere in the UK (which is why I get quite excited when I see someone write
    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    And what about "Ladies step back with the left foot, men step back on the right?"
    as that's a key part of our footwork pattern - the Lady starts back on her left. I'm a footwork nerd. So shoot me.)

    This footwork is drilled into me, and it actually influences the style of the dance, as it can limit the different combinations of moves (due to the lady being back on a particular foot - some moves work better together than others - which can feel downright awkward at times).

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    The point that's being made is that there's no single footwork pattern common to all the moves and fixed in time with the music as there is in Lindy (rock-step, triple-step, triple-step etc.) or Salsa (one-two-three, five-six-seven), Cha Cha, or many other styles of dance.
    Of course there's no fixed footwork pattern for everything. MJ is too loosely structured for that. But, in some places in the world, MJ is taught with fixed footwork patterns for particular moves, which is a fair point. So, I can totally understand where Yliander is coming from.

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