Dancing by numbers....

[ChrisA]

I do recall feeling annoyed as I miss simple breaks as I'm in the middle of something else. (I just love it when the music breaks - watch me dancing at a club and I'm the one trying to anticipate the breaks coming in, feeling the tension, and then the release as music kicks back in. It's almost a reason for living.)

If this is true, then I would lay money that the time will come when you really like 'All That Jazz'.

I really hate "all that jazz", (and it's got lots of breaks which would freak me out, and now it's stuck in my head! )

Hopefully someone around will remember to tease you about this when that time comes

[Gadget]

Don't think I said "boring" OR "monotonous" ??? "Simple".. "easy" maybe and I meant "less challenging"...

as I said - I think I missed what you were saying. I have not noticed any "challenging" tracks between lessons - but I've not been listening out for them *shrug*. I wouldn't really know. {actually more accuratly; I wouldn't really remember }

A beginner man cannot POSSIBLY know what to do at a break after a couple of classes

?? breaks? I didn't say breaks; I said musicality. This can be as little as changing between moves to match the phrasing of the track or taking one beat more/less within a move or ending with the track.
Personally I think that keeping this sort of thing only to workshops is a shame - I think it should be taught to beginners in parallel with leading: not just how to lead, but when to lead and how to listen.

What you seem to want to do is create your own little patches here and there and have the man weave the rest of the pattern round these forms you create.

Yeah.. sounds good to me...

It's bad for the man to expect the lady to follow his interpretation, but he should bend the dance to follow hers? Is that not double standards?

Yes, the majority of good leads can do this, but that's only because they can addapt to what the follower does - normally it's inexperienced dancers doing something unusual or unexpected.

If both dancers are 'in tune' with each other (and hearing the same music), then the lead will open the framework for the follower to express the music just as they want to have some room for expression.
If the lead sets up a frame for the follower to fill and they don't fill it, then the lead has missjudged their partner.
If the follower 'breaks' the lead and inserts their own 'expression', then the lead has no idea of the framework that the follower is working to; obviously they are hearing different music, so that gives little clue. The lead has to wait for the follower to close her own frame before they can resume the dance.

Too kind...

I think I've gone deaf in my left eyeball.

I'll do some market research for you, if you like...

Please do... in fact I think a poll may be required; El Salsa?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Please do... in fact I think a poll may be required; El Salsa?

Oh no. I'm not going there again - you'll have to make up your own poll. However, if you want, I'll interpret the results for you so you get an opportunity to tell me how wrong I am. How's that for a generous offer?

[Wendy]

I have not noticed any "challenging" tracks between lessons

I have found simply "too fast" or "too slow" to be a challenge to beginners .. (sorry don't know the BPMs)... And "challenging" is personal and possibly depends on what you like or know as someone pointed out. I still think beginner men would struggle to lead well to All That Jazz (they can't lead ANYTHING well yet!!!) if they were hitting breaks and interpreting the music ...whether they knew and loved the track or not... and the same goes for those clubby ones which seem to have huge "gaps" in the middle... I must remember to note particular tracks as All That Jazz is a particular case and I'm sure CJ would never play it till later in the evening anyway

Personally I think that keeping this sort of thing only to workshops is a shame - I think it should be taught to beginners in parallel with leading: not just how to lead, but when to lead and how to listen.

I think that would be great too but feel it would suit intermediate dancers better. I feel beginners have enough to take on board as it is. And remember, every week someone brand new will be doing the beginner class...

It's bad for the man to expect the lady to follow his interpretation, but he should bend the dance to follow hers?

If "bending" the dance is allowing me to spin slower than usual at a slow bit or wiggle a bit longer during a comb at a wiggly bit or go up and down his back and then nudge him forward (into the normal catapault postition) at, what I consider to be, an appropriate time in the music then "yes".... I wonder what you think I want here ????? This is partner dancing... and sometimes I feel like some dancers think they are taking their dog to obedience classes

I think I've gone deaf in my left eyeball.

That explains a lot

Please do... in fact I think a poll may be required;

Maybe the next time a lady's face turns to stone as she looks to the floor and avoids eye contact, you could ask her what she thinks. It might just be a mis-match, of course....

Wx

[Lou]

If "bending" the dance is allowing me to spin slower than usual at a slow bit or wiggle a bit longer during a comb at a wiggly bit or go up and down his back and then nudge him forward (into the normal catapault postition) at, what I consider to be, an appropriate time in the music then "yes"....

Well said!

[Gadget]

I have found simply "too fast" or "too slow" to be a challenge to beginners ..
~snip~I still think beginner men would struggle to lead well ~ if they were hitting breaks and interpreting the music ...

"Too fast" and "too slow" is challenging no matter what your level - just that the boundaries get pushed back a bit as you get better.
I'm not suggesting that challenging tracks be played for beginners to cut their teeth on - just that you don't have to play uninspiring music.

{re: teaching musicality in parallel with leading} I feel beginners have enough to take on board as it is. And remember, every week someone brand new will be doing the beginner class...

Perhaps beginners may lead (/learn) better if they were shown how a move could tie into the music? Just a theory.

If "bending" the dance is ~stuff*~ at, what I consider to be, an appropriate time in the music then "yes"

but what if he doesn't think it an appropriate time? What would you do if the lead gave you room to do stuff* at an 'inappropriate' moment?
How would you react/feel if the lead stopped you in the middle of doing stuff* and took the lead back again? Is this any different to what you have done by stopping the lead?

.... I wonder what you think I want here ????? This is partner dancing

Yes - partner dancing. Dancing with your partner. When you do stuff*, are you dancing with them?
It's a "lead and follow" dance. The lead leads, The follow follows. What do you think I want here? The follower to follow my lead perhaps?

... and sometimes I feel like some dancers think they are taking their dog to obedience classes

A dog only goes to obedience classes if you have a problem controlling it. There, it learns to walk to heel with a lead... hmmm, my may have a point{*duck* ... erm...not that I would call any ladies dogs either... where's that shovel? }

Maybe the next time a lady's face turns to stone as she looks to the floor and avoids eye contact, you could ask her what she thinks. It might just be a mis-match, of course....

... she is avoiding eye contact and looking to the floor - how can I tell if her face has turned to stone? (what does that look like anyway? normally any stony face I get is accompanied by a red-hot glare )

The amount of times I've tread on toes, bashed my partners and collided with them, I'm surprised they still accept a dance If I do something less obvious than this to upset someone, I am unlikely to notice (especially with a smile and "thanks" at the end of the dance) - please tell me. (hints don't work)

[David Bailey]

Perhaps beginners may lead (/learn) better if they were shown how a move could tie into the music? Just a theory.

I suspect that's a good way of reducing beginner retention numbers. Hell, I didn't even think about interpretation until I'd been dancing a few years, although I am a slow learner. Most beginners will just want to know the moves, any style tips should be left to when they reach intermdiate level I think.

It's a "lead and follow" dance. The lead leads, The follow follows. What do you think I want here? The follower to follow my lead perhaps?

Now that's just crazy talk...

[spindr]

It's a "lead and follow" dance. The lead leads, The follow follows. What do you think I want here? The follower to follow my lead perhaps?

Ah, a student of the "Me Tarzan, you follow!" school of dance, eh?

The lead is supposed to be an invitation -- the follower can accept or decline -- if they accept they do something that matches the invitation.
If they decline, lead something else.

Of course, if they keep declining there's no dance. And if they throw in too many exciting bits, then that'll kill any plans for musicality -- but then feel free to throw in your own unexpected embellishments in that case -- salsa shines are brilliant for that

Argentine Tango dancers tend to express the ideal dance as: "One dancer, four feet".

SpinDr.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Argentine Tango dancers tend to express the ideal dance as: "One dancer, four feet".

And in many cases, all of them Left.

[Wendy]

Ah, a student of the "Me Tarzan, you follow!" school of dance, eh?

The lead is supposed to be an invitation -- the follower can accept or decline -- if they accept they do something that matches the invitation.
If they decline, lead something else.

Of course, if they keep declining there's no dance. And if they throw in too many exciting bits, then that'll kill any plans for musicality -- but then feel free to throw in your own unexpected embellishments in that case -- salsa shines are brilliant for that

Argentine Tango dancers tend to express the ideal dance as: "One dancer, four feet".

Wxxx

[Magic Hans]

...
The lead is supposed to be an invitation -- the follower can accept or decline -- if they accept they do something that matches the invitation.
If they decline, lead something else.
...

Agreed, however, this comes down to the fundemental of what lead is .... and what leading is not.

I fully agree that leading is not:

"This is what I'm demanding that you, how to do it, and where and when to finish it!"

This is simply exerting overt control.

I propose that it is not the other extreme either:

"I'm inviting you to do this. However, what you do, how you do it, and where you end up (anywhere on the dance floor) is completely and entirely up to you" [Try this with a beginner!!]


For me, leading necessarily includes the invitation, and politely asks for a destination (I really need to know where my follow is going to end up, otherwise I will struggle with my next lead!).However, leave the choice of move, how this do it and timing up to my follow.

Some self-help book somewhere describes:

Leading as deciding direction and destination, and

Management as how to achieve the above.

Where I do want to lead my follow, I don't want to manage her.

Make sense?

I hope so!

|an

[Wendy]

There is a new lead and follow thread.. can some of this (really good stuff) be moved there ???If not, I won't know WHICH one to follow

Apart from over-rotating, where can we really end up ? I know I've done (multiple usually ) spins and end up not facing the guy sometimes If a beginner lady has learned the moves doen't she know roughly where to end up ?? I dance with a lot more beginner men in freestyle so don't really come across this but I'd be really interested to know where they go wrong as I have beginner women in the revision class...

Wx

[Gadget]

Apart from over-rotating, where can we really end up ?

You could end up dancing 2miles away (well, the 'm' is either miles or meters...) - the main reasons are:
The lady takes big steps back
The man propells the lady and she travels in her turn/return
The man also takes big steps back
The man expects the lady to move one way but she moves another
...
The actual position and facing on the floor of the lady can vary drastically. But should the lady always try and dance in 'quadrants', or is it soley up to the man to lead her position and facing as well?

[spindr]

Apart from over-rotating, where can we really end up ? I know I've done (multiple usually ) spins and end up not facing the guy sometimes

Well, if you end unbalanced / relying on the leader for balance that's not great.

Similarly, if you think to step back automatically after a turn, but while the leader's still turning that's not so great either.

Too close/far away, will also mess up the tension/compression in the handhold as well.

SpinDr.

[Wendy]

Well, if you end unbalanced / relying on the leader for balance that's not great.

Yeah ... that reminds of a time I attempted a multiple spin and really lost my balance and my partner just watched.. I came VERY close to falling over....scary... still don't know how I managed not to....

Similarly, if you think to step back automatically after a turn, but while the leader's still turning that's not so great either.

Now that's an interesting point. The class is taught (roughly) "step in, turn the lady and (both?) step back". I only realised on Tuesday that this step back should be LED and the guy shoud push when he does that painting thing ....( a bit like the semi circle) so I guess I step(ped) back cos I SHOULD...

Too close/far away, will also mess up the tension/compression in the handhold as well.

Am really guilty of that.. arm is too straight... I know I know ...

We don't really get that far away though do we?? And could it be argued that if your lead was better these things wouldn't happen ? Or are some ladies "uncontrollable" ? I haven't really come across these things so maybe I'm a better lead than I thought .. and I mean when I'm meant to be ! Honest !!!

Wx

[MartinHarper]

I came VERY close to falling over....scary...

I've fallen over a couple of times while dancing. It's actually not that painful. Also, once you've fallen once, you don't need to be scared of falling over any more, and that makes you a better dancer.

[Wendy]

I've fallen over a couple of times while dancing. It's actually not that painful. Also, once you've fallen once, you don't need to be scared of falling over any more, and that makes you a better dancer.

Another great workshop idea - How to fall and make it look like it was expertly led !!!!! I know Boris Becker learned how to fall so he must be a good dancer !!!! I have fallen a couple of times - just not in that "oh-my-god-this-is going-to-be-horrendous-as-I-flatten-people-like-bowls-across-the-dancefloor-all-in slow-motion" kind of way !

Wx

[David Bailey]

I only realised on Tuesday that this step back should be LED a

Don't worry about it, I only realised (remembered) that the stepback is also lead myself a while back - beginner's classes are great to remind you of this stuff!

are some ladies "uncontrollable" ?

I don't believe so - some need stronger leads than others, but there are so many techniques (e.g. this comment) for controlling a partner that any lady should be pretty much controllable to the degree required (sounds a bit authoritarian, that... !)

Of course, that's not to say the lady will enjoy that level of control (vice-like grips etc), but I believe anyone can be lead - that's the main benefit of being a leader

[Graham]

Apart from over-rotating, where can we really end up ? I know I've done (multiple usually ) spins and end up not facing the guy sometimes If a beginner lady has learned the moves doen't she know roughly where to end up ?? I dance with a lot more beginner men in freestyle so don't really come across this but I'd be really interested to know where they go wrong as I have beginner women in the revision class...

I can't say for certain what Magic Hans meant, but when I read his post I didn't interpret it in the same way as you (and Gadget and spindr). If you're leading a follower who simply follows, then as a lead you're constantly thinking (perhaps subconsciously) about what's coming next. When a follower contributes to the dance a lot, as you do, then you still have to work out what you're going to do next, after whatever it is that the follower is doing. Of course you can only do this if you have some idea of how the follower is going to finish the interlude (which hand, at what height, etc.) Obviously you can just wait and react when you realise that she's finished, but this can be a little stressful (what if I can't think of anything to do from that position? ), and it's easier if you can tell a couple of beats beforehand, and work out some kind of plan. I'm not sure why, but some partners I find much harder to "read" than others (and it is nothing to do with how much they "take over").

[bigdjiver]

...I'm not sure why, but some partners I find much harder to "read" than others (and it is nothing to do with how much they "take over").

A theory from my last freestyle - Alcohol?