What you actually wrote was "no interesting music". What you apparently meant was "no difficult music". If you write what you mean, then that'll probably help the discussion along a bit.Originally Posted by Wendy
Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
Beginners can use the skill, talent and wisdom, support and encouragement of taxis till that time so it seems like a good cut off point to me....and many go home in tears at that point anyway having spent an evening with me...Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
It depended on how "decent" you meant too.. but I decided not to go there.... same thing with "decent" music.... I can have a great time with some dancers to that yamaha piano thing Gadget was suggesting - in fact with some people we'd get along just fine with no music at all I expectOriginally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
The music sets the pace the pauses etc IMHO and I follow the music without any arguments whatsoever !!!!! When a lead fills in ALL the breaks and NEVER notices that I want to play too, then I don't feel like I'm partner dancing at all... I feel like an extension of his over-developed ego !!!!!!!! And many dancers dance the same way to every single track.... so I don't see how they can think they are interpreting the music at all..Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
This conversation doesn't really fit the thread I fear... is that cos I took the lead and it's all fallen apart ????
And since you guys are hitting it off so well, I'd love to watch you dance together.. taking the lead in turns.... and then seeing what you both think...
WxWx
Last edited by Wendy; 5th-April-2005 at 06:38 PM.
What you actually wrote was "no interesting music". What you apparently meant was "no difficult music". If you write what you mean, then that'll probably help the discussion along a bit.Originally Posted by Wendy
Again, we hit commercial reality. One of the aims of improving retention for new starters of modern jive is to emphasize the "modern" part of it. To prove to new punters* that MJ can be danced to any(-ish) pop track, and so get them to connect to the dance, relate it to their own club experiences, and hopefully come again, I imagine most DJs pretty much have to play more modern, standard pop tracks, at least early on.Originally Posted by MartinHarper
And "difficult" is not exactly the same as "interesting", sure - but they're not too far apart in this sense I feel.
* who are paying more than the freestylers, and have as much "right" to the venue and the music they want as any "oldtimers" do.
Ceroc run dance classes, and they give their pupils a chance to practice what they have learned. As had been complained about incessently they do not teach very much interpretation, hitting the breaks, allowing the women their space in a normal class, and they are in no obligation to give us the opportunity to practice those things. In practice they do give us some more adventurous music.
That is the system that got Ceroc where it is today, and us where we are now. The majority is not where we are now, but back where we were, thinking there is no dance class that we would like, or that we could not do it if we tried. I think that ceroc should maintain the mission that it has shown it can accomplish, teach newcomers to dance, and expand their network to give the same opportunity to others.
If it is deficient anywhere, IMO, it is in running enough workshops and freestyles to give the more advanced dancers a greater opportunity. It should keep the normal class format just about as it is, but giving it small tweaks this way and that and see exactly how those small changes pan out.
I think that I'm tending to side with Wendy a little bit here. It strikes me that it's a pretty difficult balance to try to ecstatically please allcomers, despite dancing ability/experience and musical tastes, during the 1-1 1/2 hours (8:30ish - 9pm, 9:45ish - 10:30pm) of freestyle music at a typical weekday event.Originally Posted by Gadget
Playing just popular, steady beated music back-to-back for all that time might prove a great training ground for beginners, but might bore more experienced dancers to death, scare them off and provide beginners and improvers less opportunity for advancement.
Equally, playing more obscure music varying from the very slow to the very speedy could well have beginners simply tearing their hair out!! Whilst satisfying more of the more experienced.
Certainly, after taxi-ing, I do like to "pay" myself by selfishly having 2-3 good dances with good dancers!! [ ... well ones I like to dance with]
I kind of agree here, I suppose !! It depends on how musical interpretation is defined. I guess I see musical interpretation as connecting with the mood of the music, identifying the musical phrases whose length might differ markedly, and can sometimes be very subtle.Originally Posted by gadget
I feel very, very fortunate that my parents introduced me to music (piano lessons) before I was ten, and I believe that those 20+ years of exposure to such varied music truly helps me to connect. Sadly, I see precious few men creatively expressing themselves to music, except at weekend events and some freestyles.
But I guess, underlying any sort of interpretation is an understanding of basics such as identifying the beat. Which I guess, is an underlying requisite for any type of dancing, [although less vital when soloing!]
However, leading is IMO more important than any deeper understanding of musical interpretation is.
!an
Apologies.. and what I really meant was challenging music now I think about it...Originally Posted by MartinHarper
And I'll try harder to say what I really mean.
Wx
Good point !!!!Originally Posted by ChrisA
I usually just sit it out as I feel I've interpreted it to death
Next time I dance to it (cos I'm asked) I'll try hard to do no interpreting of the music...
Here's an idea - Maybe girls should get lessons in that so we can tune in better to our partner's musicality...didn't they have a chip for that in that Stepford Wives film ????
Wxxx
I think beginners do leave early which is understandable as they are in learning mode most of the time... Think that sounds like a sensible approach.Originally Posted by bigdjiver
Wx
Never had the chance to try to interpretit this. The version I have is 5.04 - far too long for me. What version is favoured where it is played ??Originally Posted by Wendy
Ceroc patterns are not generally taught in a way which is timed to fit a musical phrase, and they are different lengths, so in freestyle you could start and finish any move on any beat of a phrase. In a way, therefore, it doesn't make much sense to teach them to a particular phrasing, but by convention (I assume) they are always taught starting on the first beat of a phrase, hence the 5,6,7,8 introduction.Originally Posted by MartinHarper
Nigel Anderson, for example, plays around with the introduction and says things like 23..7..19..go, but he does still do it to the 5,6,7,8 of the musical phrase!Originally Posted by MartinHarper
And I am one who has complained. I think it's a shame these things aren't included in the intermediate class... and really don't understand why they can't. The intermediate class could cover the same moves that are covered in the beginner class but with musicalily style .. more emphasis on lead follow etc. Maybe not every week.. but once in a while... Intermediate classes do little to help women improve IMHO...Originally Posted by bigdjiver
I agree...Originally Posted by bigdjiver
(I DID think I could dance BTW before I went to ceroc (solo dancing of course... ) and I expect most women do too...In many ways I have had to un-learn the way I danced to do ceroc)
Absolutely agree.Originally Posted by bigdjiver
Wx
Thanks for listening!Originally Posted by Wendy
I never noticed this ceroc beats vs. real beats thing. There's a difference? And here I thought I had a fairly good sense of rhythm.I don't think it matters that a whole move takes 8/16 beats (it might later when you want to end a song in a particular postion or something .. dunno,... I'm not that good at leading to know )..
I don't think I'm getting it wrong, but I don't know - I'm aware of our teacher and the taxis telling us not to rush through moves but to follow the beat. I'd like more time dancing with someone who can tell me if I'm getting things like this wrong.but it DOES matter if your partner is expecting you to turn out on 3 and and you do it on 2 or on a half beat - even worse !!!!!...
My experience is that even non-beginners will freak out a bit if I add the slightest variation to a move. I guess they are maybe going a bit into "auto-pilot" as they're dancing with a beginner after all!A beginner is learning the moves/beats as you are (even although she is meant to be following).. if you don't want women to back-lead then you might as well learn it to the "correct" counts etc at first.. and then when you know the basics you can add pauses and variations that will make beginner women either squeal with delight or think are getting it WRONG and be terrifed !!! Beginner women can't follow yet - they are learning moves too and want to get it "right"...
Dancing with anyone who is not in time with you (no matter who is at fault) feels pretty awful.If a lady took 2.5 beats to do a turn/return you'd know how awful it can feel when it's "wrong" (and I'm talking timing-wise not movement-wise.... (jeez some guys come out in a rash when I take longer than I "should" even although I'm keeping to the beat !!!!!)
Counting in marches never goes above 4, and there really are only 2 basic moves (left and right!) I suppose there are things like turns... Anyway, that must make it a bit easier to get right.Is something like marching not taught to numbers ??? I am just thinking of Clive Dunn in Dad's Army... and imagining someone singing in a choir at the wrong time.....
What I'm saying is that once you get into higher numbers it doesn't help because you can't remember which number is which move. (Or is it just me?) And isn't there a reason why they use marching songs rather than just calling out numbers?
I feel you're being a little unkind to beginners here. We might not be fantastic at it, but both are natural skills. Have you ever owned a dog? You lead, it follows. If it's big enough, occasionally it leads, you follow.Each part is SUPPOSED to be lead... however, beginner men don't know how to lead and beginner women don't know how to follow.... so that ain't going to work.... well not right away...
I think I've got it. There has to be a clear separation between the sweep out and the turn back in.I'm just trying to work out why so many men don't get the yoyo
This is a move I was taught at the Edinburgh workshop but have yet to properly master. Maybe I'm just waiting for the right woman to try it on...Glasgow men do some fantastic combs !!!!!
A brief aside...
Is changing hands meant to be hard?Originally Posted by tsh
Back to the main thread...
I totally agree with you here. first, I really hate "all that jazz", (and it's got lots of breaks which would freak me out, and now it's stuck in my head! ), and although I love Meatloaf, "paradise..." is just tooooo long to expect me to make it all the way though it alive. I'd be praying for the end of time.Originally Posted by Wendy
I assume when you say "9.45" you mean half an hour after the intermediate class finishes. Round my way that'd be 10 pm. And, yep Tsh, I do go home once the music gets too complicated!
That'd be cool with me! Love that track!Originally Posted by Gadget
I thought I understood what was going on until I read this thread. I haven't been taught what the "MJ count" is, or how it relates to the beat. That said, I usually don't seem to have a big problem finding it, so I must be doing something right?Originally Posted by spindr
Yeah, but I'm just a big woose! (and how do you spell "woose" anyway???)Originally Posted by Wendy
It's funny, but I have almost zero recollection of any of the music our resident (fabby ) DJ plays. I do know I've usually been able to dance to it. I do recall feeling annoyed as I miss simple breaks as I'm in the middle of something else. (I just love it when the music breaks - watch me dancing at a club and I'm the one trying to anticipate the breaks coming in, feeling the tension, and then the release as music kicks back in. It's almost a reason for living.)
Either way, it's not been the music on a class night that has put me off dancing, though it was a factor at the Edinburgh party. But I don't think Wendy's going to start saying only easy music should be played there for the likes of me, is she?
Last edited by ducasi; 6th-April-2005 at 12:27 AM. Reason: tidying up grammar
Let your mind go and your body will follow. – Steve Martin, LA Story
Our versison is 17.06 minutes I thinkOriginally Posted by Whitebeard
Wx
Er, I think it's the Ute Lempur version (4:01), not that I know any others particularly. The DJs will know. Well the good ones, anywayOriginally Posted by Whitebeard
Well I wouldn't ask for "easy" music at a party night, no...not even for one of my Tuesday beginners I took G to a party when he was a beginner and he was miserable (an Edinburgh party as it happens but can't say if the music was a factor or not). Personally I don't enjoy a lot of the music at Edinburgh parties and only go cos there are some fabulous dancers around.Originally Posted by ducasi
Too much to quote sweet Ducasi but it's time for bed...
Wx
Ceroc counts are two beats - two 'counts' to a 4-beat bar.Originally Posted by ducasi
When the teacher goes "5 and 6 and 7 and 8" those are Ceroc counts - two musical bars worth, in fact.
When the teacher goes "5,6 - 5 6 7 8" - then the first 5 and 6 are Ceroc counts, and the second set of 5,6,7,8 are musical beats, four to a bar.
A ceroc move always takes an even number of beats, even if it has an odd number of counts - because the number of beats is twice the number of counts.
So you always start a move on a down beat (beat 1 or three in the bar, or beats 5 or 7 if you're counting 8 beats over two bars.)
I think.
It's "wuss".
There is, but it's somewhat arcane. I can't add much to DavidB's post that started the thread on musical interpretation. The "MJ count" is counting only the downbeats.Originally Posted by ducasi
I misunderstood your post - you seemed to be saying that boring, monotonous tracks should be all that you allow the beginners to dance to. You keep saying that they dance through the breaks and don't have any appreciation for the music: why should it matter if there is some Van Morrison or Kylie played?Originally Posted by Wendy
Why? I was under the impression that it was a lead and follow dance? If I am leading, I will give the lady's room where I think they should develop the music. I am weaving the pattern of the dance. The lady is filling in the colours and details. This is leading. With beginners, you create a simpler pattern and guide her through most of it. With more experienced ladies, you give them a patch to fill in, and then resume the rest of the pattern.speechless....Yup - but I'm leading. She goes by my interpretation.
What you seem to want to do is create your own little patches here and there and have the man weave the rest of the pattern round these forms you create.
When dancing, I will attempt to listen to requests from the lady to find her own space (hesitations in some areas, slightly more resistance in others, taking more time to do a return, ...) - but I will then try and find a place in the music and in my pattern that will accommodate her.
OK; it takes two to dance - one to lead and one to follow. They are different skills. I stand by my statement: I'm leading - I will lead the breaks and structure of the musical interpretation. The lady is following - I expect her to embellish my lead and put her own interpretation into the framework I give her. Is this egotistical? Is this just dancing for myself?That'll be based on that old Chinese proverb "It takes one to tango!"
{BTW Chris - the post was written outside of the forum, then cut & pasted - it almost broke the spell-check }
Don't think I said "boring" OR "monotonous" ??? "Simple".. "easy" maybe and I meant "less challenging"...Originally Posted by Gadget
Don't think I said that either. But since 96% of intermediate cerocers dance through the breaks, I'd be surprsied if beginners were any different !!!Originally Posted by Gadget
Never said that either.. and wouldn't assume such a thing..and as I have said before, musicality or appreciation or whatever is VERY personal/subjective ..some hear the guitar solo and others hear the drums .. so I don't think there are rights or wrongs.... Musical appreciation and being able to express that (never mind lead it!!!) physically are two very different things..Originally Posted by Gadget
A beginner man cannot POSSIBLY know what to do at a break after a couple of classes (well I've never met one so far and I've probably danced with hundreds of beginner men - have you ?????) and most certainly hasn't learned how to communicate what he is getting from the music or how to LEAD the woman into his musicality la la land.... and I wouldn't expect him to ...
To a lot of people it doesn't matter one bitOriginally Posted by Gadget
Yeah.. sounds good to me...Originally Posted by Gadget
Too kind...Originally Posted by Gadget
I'll repeat that : "TOO KIND" !!!!
I said "TOO KIND" !!!!!
I'll do some market research for you, if you like...Originally Posted by Gadget
W
Last edited by Wendy; 6th-April-2005 at 01:48 AM.
Re: All That Jazz
I think "All that Jazz" actually has too many breaks - it's fine doing dramatic pauses and poses for the first minute, but after that I get bored with them (possibly because my range is limited...).Originally Posted by Wendy
Also, it's difficult to get a decent momentum of moves going if you have to stop every 10 seconds for a break, I feel I'm forced to dance to the breaks instead of the music. So now I'm not so keen on dancing to that track, I'll sit it out too
Last edited by David Bailey; 6th-April-2005 at 08:25 AM.
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