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Thread: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

  1. #61
    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr
    Couple of reasons why it works well -- any (exercise) instructor worth their salt should make sure that their students have a guided opportunity to warm up -- this is how salsa teachers tend to do it, not quite sure how MJ teachers do it tho'

    Better teachers also teach body isolations during the warmups.
    Sorry, but no.
    Yes, that all makes sense in abstract. And when I started learning, the teacher did indeed do a stretch session, and a simple warmup - great idea, no problem with that gets you warmed up, used to moving to music, solid concept. I believe (ESG shpuld know) that the Monday Finchley sessions also have a warmup for beginners.

    However, in most salsa places I've been to recently, this has degenerated into a "show off the moves" session, which no beginner could hope to understand. I'm rusty, but I've been salsa-ing a while, and I couldn't follow more than 50% of this stuff, beginners wouldn't have a hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr
    The steps are used in Salsa shines and as improvised footwork with say cross-body moves
    Sure, and they may well be helpful in those situations - but possibly not something a beginner will be needing to know?

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr
    The steps are often called -- but the teachers also demo from the stage, so you can simply follow their feet.
    Again, the "stage" at most salsa venues I've been to, assuming there is one, is less than ideal for beginners standing at the back(*), who are trying to see some intricate footwork performed at the front, in a dark room, whilst simultaneously trying to hear Spanish-named move descriptions, in a room with less-than-ideal acoustics (where's that darned tongue-in-cheek icon again.... )

    * They always stand at the back

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    [QUOTE=Gadget]I think that the point BigDJiver was making is that to extend the 'intermediate' classes to become more 'advanced' would put more distance between beginners stepping up to 'intermediate' and have the same sort of effect as above. [QUOTE]I am in favour of the intermediate class being pitched at a level to suit the paticipants, their "level of proximal development" as a teacher might say. Provided it is 45 mins tuition aimed at someone who has not done that 45 minutes before I do not have any objections to what is taught. If the teacher spends only 7 minutes on a new move, and 23 minutes on new style tips then I would think that would benefit everybody in the class.
    If it ever got to the stage where if you were not there last week you cannot do this weeks lesson, then that would be too advanced in my book. It is only when we start making the wrong assumption in an intermediate that "they all know that" that we would start raising barriers to beginners.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobC
    Well reading between the lines of what has been said, and the info on sites that have been posted here - (No I haven't got any experience of Line Dancing myself) it would seem that a Line Dancing couple could easily pass as a MJ showcase or cabaret, given that their routines are choreographed. However, the fact that it is choreographed is the major difference - MJ is a freestyle dance.

    Oh come on, how many COMPETITIVE MJ dancers are truely freestyling in competitions??? (SDF is a competition)
    I've seen them practice routines, and even danced with some (obsessive) competitive MJ'ers who get upset when you can't follow some weird routine because its not led properly coz its part of some fancy routine they've made up or been taught.
    MJ may be a freestyle dance, in freestyle nights on the social dance floor, but we can't compare that to what people will be doing on SDF!!!

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    [QUOTE=bobgadjet]The inner dancefloor was for the jivers and line dancers, and there was an outer fence making like a track around the centre floor, that was for partner dancers (when will we see this at Ashtons).
    It was crazy, but it worked well.

    when will we see this at Ashtons

    Please can we make sure that at Ashtons (strictly no sequins) the Jivers are in the CENTRE and the ballroom dancers go round the outside!!!!

    Please don't make us foxtrot in an inner ring!!!

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    .....
    Last edited by Gadget; 1st-April-2005 at 02:30 PM. Reason: deleted: off topic and posting just for the sake of posting.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ballroom queen
    Oh come on, how many COMPETITIVE MJ dancers are truely freestyling in competitions???
    I know at least one.

    That was usually because I didn't meet up with my partner until the day before (or possibly the day of) the competition though

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    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ballroom queen
    Oh come on, how many COMPETITIVE MJ dancers are truely freestyling in competitions??? (SDF is a competition)
    Er, most of them, in the freestyle competitions, I would say, in the UK at any rate.

    Not in the showcase, obviously - that is a choreographed routine competition. But in the freestyle comps, most people freestyle. There is a tendency for some people that do showcases as well to reuse some of their showcase moves in the freestyle if they're also competing in that category - and I think in some cases it can get a bit predictable and dull as a consequence. But other than that I think you'll find freestyle competitors are very much freestyling.

    At the more advanced levels, musical interpretation is judged more and more, and if anyone dances a prepared routine to music that it doesn't fit, they should get marked down IMHO.
    I've seen them practice routines,
    Routines as opposed to moves? For the freestyle comps? Are you sure?

    and even danced with some (obsessive) competitive MJ'ers who get upset when you can't follow some weird routine because its not led properly coz its part of some fancy routine they've made up or been taught.
    Where have you found this? I know quite a lot of people that compete and I can't imagine any of them would try to do chunks of their showcases with anyone except their showcase partner.

    Actually on reflection, I can think of one competing couple that do a lot of drops and things completely off the break on which you'd normally expect such a thing, so maybe they are just doing something largely pre-prepared. I do agree that it looks crap when it doesn't respect the music.

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    But in the freestyle comps, most people freestyle. There is a tendency for some people that do showcases as well to reuse some of their showcase moves in the freestyle if they're also competing in that category - and I think in some cases it can get a bit predictable and dull as a consequence. But other than that I think you'll find freestyle competitors are very much freestyling.
    Large agreement - couple of thoughts:

    A lot of music has similar phrasing - there is nearly always a grouping into counts of 8 (or 16/32). So it's often surprisingly easy to dance parts of a choregraphed routine to another piece of music. I don't think there's a particular intent to reuse the choreography - it's just that it's so practiced that using it is almost the default option unless there's a reason not to. (Generally that reason comes up fairly often - musicality, or floorcraft issues - but I certainly see small segments of showcases crop up from time to time). As far as I'm concerned - if there's still lead and follow and the option to move into/out of the choreography - then it's still freestyle, though possibly not the purest kind.

    In the categories that allow lifts, one of the hardest things is to have clean entries and exits - in particular, it is very difficult to use lead and follow when your arms are occupied holding your partner in the air! Undoubtably the most visually appealing way of handling this is to work out an "entry move" that flows cleanly into the lift, and an "exit move" the lift flows into. But when you do that, no question about it, that's a choreographed sequence. (Any changes in position during the lift more-or-less have to be choreographed too). I see this a lot, but I think it's entirely reasonable within the restraints of a competition - although I've never been keen on that approach personally because I don't trust myself not to do the "entry move" by accident!

    Going back to the "choreographed Line Dancing v.s. freestyle MJ" question - I think one thing Strictly Dance Fever has really bought home to me is how much the normal MJ class really isn't about dancing for spectators. We do very well at having enjoyable dances with lots of different partners, but there is very little training about making the movements look good. I can think of very few MJ dancers who would look good as solo dancers. A choreographed routine lends itself much more to worrying about how things look, so I would assume the whole emphasis is very different with Line Dancing.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    Large agreement - couple of thoughts:

    As far as I'm concerned - if there's still lead and follow and the option to move into/out of the choreography - then it's still freestyle, though possibly not the purest kind.
    I agree, and this is probably the same as the "choreography" that many MJ'ers perceive ballroom to be.

    As for "who and Where" I may have been dancing with competitors / watched people practice etc, I can't possibly comment! But it happens. Not all the time, not even often, but it does happen.

    As David said, MJ most of the time is about DOING not WATCHING, and enjoying your dance with your partner.

    "Dance like nobody's watching..."

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobgadjet
    ... Are there ANY venues that are brave enough to charge a smaller fee, say £3, for entry before 8pm, maybe £5 for entry between 8 & 9pm, then the full fee after 9pm ?

    This would give beginners an incentive to return for a cheaper entry & lesson, and get people thru the door earlier and improve the atmosphere that is OH SO drab at the beginning of most nights...
    If the beginners class is attracting a lot of extra ladies I try and turn up early. If the numbers are more even I usually arrive for the last 15 minutes of the beginner class.

    I am not sure that the sparse, drab atmosphere at the beginning of the night does not actually work best for first-timers. It seems to me very intimidating to walk into a class of 100 people all perceived of as better than you. It softens the blow if they trickle in.


    I have noticed that first timers that arrive to a room full are more likely to "just watch", and then more likely not to return.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Q: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    A: Yep -- and they dance to trendier music!

    SpinDr.

    P.S. Anyone seen the new "Kings of Leon" video?
    P.P.S. Any DJs playing it for MJ?

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    If the beginners class is attracting a lot of extra ladies I try and turn up early. If the numbers are more even I usually arrive for the last 15 minutes of the beginner class.
    Ooooh, can I have your crystal ball? What's the lottery numbers going to be? {}

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr
    Q: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    A: Yep -- and they dance to trendier music!

    SpinDr.
    << snip >>
    Sounds to me you have a DJ problem where you dance. Tell him / her the music being played is pish. You'll probably get dismissed with sneering disdain ....

    Clive

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I am not sure that the sparse, drab atmosphere at the beginning of the night does not actually work best for first-timers. It seems to me very intimidating to walk into a class of 100 people all perceived of as better than you. It softens the blow if they trickle in.
    Hmmm, I'd have thought the opposite - a big empty room seems more intimidating to me than a big room full of other beginners, all looking as nervous and miserable as me* ... I guess this is very much subjective though; it'd be nice to hear any other opinions?

    * For a certain value of miserable.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Maybe it is just my perception, but I would rather make a fool of myself in front of ten people, than in front of 100. I would find it easier to start to build a relationship with a few people I kept getting paired with than with 50 that I mostly only met once.

    It is too small a sample to be significant, but it seems to me that latecomers are more likely to join a small class than a big one. It is also true that if there are fewer there there are less likely to be anybody sitting out. Newbies then have to choose between sitting out alone, or trying to hide in the herd.

    Come to think of it, newbies are very visible if they are sitting out alone, and I, and others, will usually try to persuade them to join the class.

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    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive Long
    Quote Originally Posted by SpinDr
    Q: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    A: Yep -- and they dance to trendier music!

    SpinDr.

    P.S. Anyone seen the new "Kings of Leon" video?
    P.P.S. Any DJs playing it for MJ?
    Sounds to me you have a DJ problem where you dance. Tell him / her the music being played is pish. You'll probably get dismissed with sneering disdain ....

    Clive
    Sorry -- too enigmatic -- the new Kings of Leon video is basically a whole line dance. And KoL must be trendy if they're supporting U2.

    SpinDr.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    Maybe it is just my perception, but I would rather make a fool of myself in front of ten people, than in front of 100. I would find it easier to start to build a relationship with a few people I kept getting paired with than with 50 that I mostly only met once.
    It's funny, but I have totally the opposite view - I'd think "100 people? Great, I can lose myself in anonymity". Or I'd think "Only 10 people? Oh God, they'll see every mistake I make."
    It's just so subjective...

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    It's funny, but I have totally the opposite view - I'd think "100 people? Great, I can lose myself in anonymity". Or I'd think "Only 10 people? Oh God, they'll see every mistake I make."
    It's just so subjective...
    The the 100 people remark seemed good tripping off the fingers, but the actuality is, in general, that everybody is absorbed with their partners, and you usually only make a fool of yourself in front of them. They are whisked away, seldom to return in a big class, but soon back in a small one.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    This is another example of the way you take some random example of something going on in some other organisation, and use it in your campaign against improving standards in MJ.

    Any drive towards excellence that excluded beginners would be foolish, but it's the exclusion of beginners that would be foolish, not the drive towards excellence.

    No one is suggesting that we take the beginners classes and make them more difficult or inaccessible in any way.

    No one is suggesting that we remove the beginners classes and replace them with advanced classes.

    And I'm sure everyone realises that without fostering beginners, making them welcome, meeting their needs, the dance is doomed.

    I don't understand why anyone thinks that there's any conflict here.
    Interesting thread

    I did line dancing for 2 yrs shortly after I started Jive about 10yrs ago but at that time seem 95% women and it put me off a bit ?

    However beginners classes in ceroc are becoming far harder then they were (foot work ,spins, style, 5 moves etc) so it will be interesting to see what happens.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    I did line dancing for 2 yrs shortly after I started Jive about 10yrs ago but at that time seem 95% women and it put me off a bit ?
    95% women. And that put you off?!?

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