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Thread: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

  1. #41
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    When I was going to Ealing Franco used to do a progressive class. This weeks 4 moves tacked onto the end of last weeks, and we would get the chance to dance a choreographed routine. In Ceroc Central freestyles the class is periodically a choreographed routine. "Big Spender" is on track that comes to mind.

    This amounts to line dance for partners. There could be a marketing opportunity to sell MJ to line dancers on that basis, and also developing the skills pf the MJ community..

    Line dance was not for me - I did not like the discipline, have the required memory, or control of my feet. These are, however, attributes that good dancers need. The big plus of Line dancing is that the routine is choreographed, and usually by someone who has some real ability.

    I have suggested that someone opening a new venue ran a formation class in parallel with the beginners class. The idea was that this would get the vital experienced dancers along to the venue, and do them, and the venue, the power of good.

    It is outside my area of expertise, but I imagine that dancing proper choreography to a set track, or tracks, would help in enabling dancers to work out their own. I would love to do "Fever" or "Moondance", or indeed any track, real justice. I have small snippets of choreography that I can apply to particular tracks, and, generally, partners love it.

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    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    It is outside my area of expertise, but I imagine that dancing proper choreography to a set track, or tracks, would help in enabling dancers to work out their own. I would love to do "Fever" or "Moondance", or indeed any track, real justice. I have small snippets of choreography that I can apply to particular tracks, and, generally, partners love it.
    I had my first taste of trying a choreographed routine at Scarborough (just to the start of 'Perhaps', Amir's class) and really enjoyed it (though I have forgotten most of it now!). For me at least, it was a useful exercise in musicality as well.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    AFIK You can line dance to a wide range of music, probably anything you can MJ to.

    Early American line dances were allegedly a single sex non-partner cowboy around-the-campfire dances. There are other antecedants in Greek, African and Jewish dance, and probably many other cultures.

    Is there partner line dance, where all of the "guys" are doing one step, and all of the ladies another? ( :sitting duck: comment ?)
    1/ You can line dance to a waltz, but not MJ to a waltz
    2/ Line dances started where truckers/treckers and the like, mainly guys, may have been in a bar/ truck stop and music was put on the juke box.
    The just wanted to dance and the space was limited. rather than butch guys holding on to their partenrs they danced routines in lines...hence... line dance.
    3/ As the routines become more popular the country and western influence moved the line dance routines to the mixed ballrooms/events, and the "partners" were able to take up routines, going round the outside of the floor,with the line dancers on the centre.

    I have been to a venue near Springfield Missourri, where in one venue there was a bar about 200 yards long (delightful), there was a buck riding ring at the far end, and in the middle was a fenced dancefloor more like a coral.
    The inner dancefloor was for the jivers and line dancers, and there was an outer fence making like a track around the centre floor, that was for partner dancers (when will we see this at Ashtons).
    It was crazy, but it worked well.

    when will we see this at Ashtons
    I started most of my early line dancing at Ashtons about ten-eleven years ago, at that time, mainly to American Country Rock. The floor was so packed, up to 600 dancers, that the partner dancers had to go around the balcony if they wanted some space to dance.
    Impressive was an understatement.

    Within 6 months of line dancing I started my own club in Watford, which grew to the largest in the area, with classes at 4 venues a week, and socials twice monthly.
    The decline came about 3 years ago as the POP music made it's in roads, and the choreography became more complex. too complex IMHO, and that discouraged a lot of newcomers.

    I had the BBC come to film on a number of occasions, with interviews etc, but when (IF) it got to the screen, it was once again given the image that became it's downfall.

    Due to my involvement with MJ now, I have no time left in my week to keep the club going myself, so have handed the one remaining night over to en ex pupil, and it survives, and may even grow with this new portrayal.

    The Gingham & Stetson brigade is still there, but they have their fairly strict guidlines such as ONLY COUNTRY MUSIC.

    In my time on the scene, the more modern the music, sometimes the more popular the dance that had been choreographed to it. Some choreographers were not even in their teens, but still managed to make up an interesting routine.

    Like a lot of dance forms Line Dancing has it's world competitors, some of whom have also made impacts in both West Coast Swing, and Modern Jive, and have taken the USA at their own disceplines. Well done those guys.

    Some of the more compelling tunes used today in MJ have come from dance routines done many times, over 10 years ago. One such track is "Eat At Joes" by Suzi Boguss, that I introduced a few weeks ago at Ashtons, and is now asked for each week. It's also a GREAT Foxtrot, so look out for it on any dancefloor.

    Line, MJ, WCS, what the heck, they are ALL enjoyable dance forms, its just that the neg rep LD has had over the past years has never moved it forward. Pity the program never went out sooner.

    WHAT AM I SAYING...... Maybe if it had, I wouldn't have got into MJ, and that would have been a disaster.

  4. #44
    Registered User bobgadjet's Avatar
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    there are a few routines used in other dance forms, not labelled as Line dances, but can only be described as routines danced in lines.........

    Try telling that to Lindy Hoppers who are dancing a STROLL

    They will NEVER accept it as a line dance, but it IS I can assure you of that.

    I also noted at a venue LAST SATURDAY, that the Salsa class STARTED with aq routine that can only be akin to line dancing.

    It gets evereywhere, and is GREAT training in musicallity, more so if the routine has a "phrased" choreography.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobgadjet
    ... and the choreography became more complex. too complex IMHO, and that discouraged a lot of newcomers...
    This is what I have been warning against in MJ, the drive towards excellence taking us away from the beginners.

    A very interesting post thanks.

  6. #46
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    This is what I have been warning against in MJ, the drive towards excellence taking us away from the beginners.
    This is another example of the way you take some random example of something going on in some other organisation, and use it in your campaign against improving standards in MJ.

    Any drive towards excellence that excluded beginners would be foolish, but it's the exclusion of beginners that would be foolish, not the drive towards excellence.

    No one is suggesting that we take the beginners classes and make them more difficult or inaccessible in any way.

    No one is suggesting that we remove the beginners classes and replace them with advanced classes.

    And I'm sure everyone realises that without fostering beginners, making them welcome, meeting their needs, the dance is doomed.

    I don't understand why anyone thinks that there's any conflict here.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobgadjet
    Try telling that to Lindy Hoppers who are dancing a STROLL
    They will NEVER accept it as a line dance...
    Actually they will: I'm not the only one who calls the Shim Sham the Lindy Line Dance.
    (but otherwise, nice post)

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    This is another example of the way you take some random example of something going on in some other organisation, and use it in your campaign against improving standards in MJ.
    Eh?
    I assume that Line Dancing is just the one class, rather than beginners & the rest. As such, making the routines harder would to some extent isolate and exclude beginners. (IMHO)

    I think that the point BigDJiver was making is that to extend the 'intermediate' classes to become more 'advanced' would put more distance between beginners stepping up to 'intermediate' and have the same sort of effect as above.
    Hopefully not, because by that time they would be hooked , but I can see that it's a valid argument and nothing to do with any capaign against improving standards.

  9. #49
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Eh?
    I assume that Line Dancing is just the one class, rather than beginners & the rest. As such, making the routines harder would to some extent isolate and exclude beginners. (IMHO)
    Exactly. MJ nights usually have two classes, however, one of which is for beginners. So citing a difficulty with a Line Dance event as a potential problem for MJ is completely irrelevant. If someone was proposing abolishing the beginners class in favour of one class that was too hard for beginners, then he'd have a point, but no one is, so he doesn't.

    I think that the point BigDJiver was making is that to extend the 'intermediate' classes to become more 'advanced' would put more distance between beginners stepping up to 'intermediate' and have the same sort of effect as above.
    Well I don't think there's much of a proposal for this either. In point of fact, you'll find that different venues have intermediate classes of different average difficulty - some are not much harder than beginners classes, while others are much harder.

    This gives people the opportunity to find a venue that suits them, and move up elsewhere when and if they feel like it.

  10. #50
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    to extend the 'intermediate' classes to become more 'advanced' would put more distance between beginners stepping up to 'intermediate' and have the same sort of effect as above.

    Hopefully not, because by that time they would be hooked
    I think this is so - by the time someone has invested the time and effort in becoming a proficient beginner, able to do all the beginner stuff and dance it nicely in freestyle, it's very unlikely that they'd be put off by an intermediate class that was hard.

    In any case, the improvers classes that more and more venues seem to be offering bridges the gap, so IMO it's a complete non-argument.

    In fact, I think the danger of keeping intermediate classes too easy is far greater. The challenge evaporates, the good dancers go elswhere, or don't do the class, and the venue gets stuck in a rut of mediocrity.

  11. #51
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Eh?
    I assume that Line Dancing is just the one class, rather than beginners & the rest. As such, making the routines harder would to some extent isolate and exclude beginners. (IMHO)
    Not any LD venues where I've been......most classes start with AT LEAST one beginners dance, plus a more challenging one.
    It's not really a posative move to try to teach morfe than 3 choreographys in one night anyway, and the routines have to be repeated for at least 3 weeks to have a good response on the d'floor.
    In most cases, as I have seen on many a MJ floor also, beginners are helped by the more accomplished dancers.
    This also has a very welcoming effect for beginners.

    With regard to MJ only, there are some venues that have less challenging improvers classes, and as mentioned, one would probably choose the venue that most suits the dancers requirements in lesson difficulty, but, as a lot of you will have noticed, ALL venues have the dancers that turn up around 9.30, so they DON'T have to dance with beginners.....or learners.

    Maybe they think they are SO good, they don't need any more lessons ?

    Are there ANY venues that are brave enough to charge a smaller fee, say £3, for entry before 8pm, maybe £5 for entry between 8 & 9pm, then the full fee after 9pm ?

    This would give beginners an incentive to return for a cheaper entry & lesson, and get people thru the door earlier and improve the atmosphere that is OH SO drab at the beginning of most nights.

    Maybe an offer should be made to experienced dancers, such that if they enter before 8pm and TAKE PART in the lesson, and actually dance with less accomplished dancers, they get maybe £2 off, or a free drink at the bar

    Returning to the thread, I did just this on a number of occasions, and it paid off, but only for a short term.

    Got to be worth a try in MJ also I would have thought.
    Last edited by bobgadjet; 29th-March-2005 at 10:42 AM. Reason: correcting twyping eras adn smelling pistakes

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobgadjet
    I also noted at a venue LAST SATURDAY, that the Salsa class STARTED with aq routine that can only be akin to line dancing.
    Salsa places have been doing this as warmup and cooldown routines for years. However, I agree, they seem to have got much more choreographed in the past few years, with proper named moves and everything ("Bow Tie", "Susie Q", don't ask me what they mean ), all called out by the leader.
    There's a place in Winchmore Hill (North London) that has a whole, long routine as a warm-up, I think the routine last a good 90 seconds or so (long time in dancing!), so you only repeat it once in the track. I'd call that line-dancing. (Hmmm, is La Rueda classed as line dancing?)

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Salsa places have been doing this as warmup and cooldown routines for years. However, I agree, they seem to have got much more choreographed in the past few years, with proper named moves and everything ("Bow Tie", "Susie Q", don't ask me what they mean ), all called out by the leader.
    There's a place in Winchmore Hill (North London) that has a whole, long routine as a warm-up, I think the routine last a good 90 seconds or so (long time in dancing!), so you only repeat it once in the track. I'd call that line-dancing. (Hmmm, is La Rueda classed as line dancing?)
    I always thought it was a deliberate attempt to make beginners and people new to the venue feel small, stupid and uncoordinated, since only the in-crowd and regulars know the steps. The painful memory of how dumb they feel at the beginning and end of every salsa class is what persuades new people to come back week after week for more punishment.

    Unfortunately Ceroc doesn't do that, which is why we have Ceroc classes of hundreds instead of the nice cosy six or seven at your average Salsa class. Perhaps with the new Ceroc Essentials warm-up we're going to correct this fault...

    (And before anyone argues, yes, actually a lot of new people *do* have trouble stepping side to side on the beat.)
    Last edited by El Salsero Gringo; 29th-March-2005 at 12:02 PM.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I always thought it was a deliberate attempt to make beginners and people new to the venue feel small, stupid and uncoordinated, since only the in-crowd and regulars know the steps. The painful memory of how dumb they feel at the beginning and end of every salsa class is what persuades new people to come back week after week for more punishment.
    That must be it - although for some reason I never went to the class again. Surely you're not suggeting that salsa is elitist??? Everyone knows it's a much nicer and friendlier scene than those nasty elitist competitive arrogant MJ-ers...

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    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I always thought it was a deliberate attempt to make beginners and people new to the venue feel small, stupid and uncoordinated, since only the in-crowd and regulars know the steps.
    Couple of reasons why it works well -- any (exercise) instructor worth their salt should make sure that their students have a guided opportunity to warm up -- this is how salsa teachers tend to do it, not quite sure how MJ teachers do it tho'

    The steps are often called -- but the teachers also demo from the stage, so you can simply follow their feet. The steps are used in Salsa shines and as improvised footwork with say cross-body moves. Oh and it teaches you how to do spins -- every week.

    Better teachers also teach body isolations during the warmups.

    If people arrive late -- they only miss the warmup -- but at their own risk.

    SpinDr.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    This is another example of the way you take some random example of something going on in some other organisation, and use it in your campaign against improving standards in MJ.
    Standard :- a specification against which others should be judged.

    If you raise the standard you make it more difficult for beginners to reach it.

    Any drive towards excellence that excluded beginners would be foolish, but it's the exclusion of beginners that would be foolish, not the drive towards excellence.
    If you raise the standard you will exclude some beginners.

    No one is suggesting that we take the beginners classes and make them more difficult or inaccessible in any way.
    You just did, I guess, without intending to. By all means raise the ceiling, but do not raise the floor, and make it clear that, for most, the ceiling is just there to admire, not a place to be.

    And I'm sure everyone realises that without fostering beginners, making them welcome, meeting their needs, the dance is doomed.


    I am all in favour of dancers and the dance getting better. However, it is so easy, with all the best of intentions, for the dancers to get better at the expense of the dance.

    From BobGadjets description of the fate of linedance it sounds like Ashtons was the Hipster equivalent, a meeting place for the brightest and the best. If they were at Ashtons they were not back where they came from, leading and inspiring the beginners. The branches flourish, but the roots wither.

    The Ceroc model of teaching the basics on class nights, extending abilities on workshops, and arranging freestyle nights at widespread locations for the more adventurous to meet and practise and extend themselves is probably the right model for sustained growth and a long life for the dance.

    The elite migrating to special venues on a permanent basis may damage the overall growth of MJ. In a competitive environment it is probably an inevitable process.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    << snip >>
    If you raise the standard you make it more difficult for beginners to reach it.
    If you raise the standard you will exclude some beginners.
    << snip >>
    In what way?
    A good counter-argument is made by a certain bigdjiver ....

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    By all means raise the ceiling, but do not raise the floor, and make it clear that, for most, the ceiling is just there to admire, not a place to be.
    << snip >>
    and
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I am all in favour of dancers and the dance getting better. However, it is so easy, with all the best of intentions, for the dancers to get better at the expense of the dance.
    I don't see the connection at all. Please explain a little more

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    << snip >>
    The elite migrating to special venues on a permanent basis may damage the overall growth of MJ. In a competitive environment it is probably an inevitable process.
    If I go to my local ice rink I don't expect to see competitive skaters on the ice at the same time as me - nor too partner them. Their absence does not diminish my enjoyment and I can see them compete and still aspire to what they do if I am prepared to make the sacrifices.

    Clive

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    I did line dancing a couple of times and really enjoyed it. The problem I foud was where I went didnt really cater for beginners so I spent most of the time totally out of my depth.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    If you raise the standard you make it more difficult for beginners to reach it.
    But no one is suggesting making the beginners class more difficult. Why do you keep fighting against a suggestion no one is making?

    How on earth does it make anything at all more difficult for beginners to raise the standard of, for example, of competitions? Or advanced classes? Or even intermediate classes, given that there is increasing provision for improvers as well as beginners and intermediates.

    If anything, the provision is getting better at the beginner end of the spectrum, not worse.

    If you raise the standard you will exclude some beginners.
    Tosh - see above.

    By all means raise the ceiling, but do not raise the floor, and make it clear that, for most, the ceiling is just there to admire, not a place to be.
    It's not any different from this anywhere, AFAIK. Again, I don't think anyone disagrees with this. No one is forcing people to learn advanced techniques when they don't want to. In fact people seem to agree that more damage is done by people going to more advanced things before they're ready.

    If they were at Ashtons {the brightest and the best} were not back where they came from, leading and inspiring the beginners. The branches flourish, but the roots wither.
    This bears no resemblance to any reality I've encountered in my MJ time.

    The brightest and the best go to the more advanced venues as well as, not instead of, the others.


    I really think you're creating an issue where none exists.

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    Re: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    But no one is suggesting making the beginners class more difficult. Why do you keep fighting against a suggestion no one is making?
    It was you that used the words "raising the standard", and "the standard" is defined as something against others will be judged. Your use of words, and your thinking is lax.

    If anything, the provision is getting better at the beginner end of the spectrum, not worse.
    You keep mis-representing what I am saying. Where have I said that the provision for beginners is getting "worse"?

    What I am trying to say is that it is very difficult to tell what is "better" and what is "worse" for the long term health of the dance, and those of us who want the dance to expand and persist had better learn the lessons of all of those dances that boomed and bust.

    In Ceroc Central we now have simple footwork exercises at the beginning of the class. Being naturally inept with my feet I would have found that an instant extra deterrent when I started dancing. It would not be that it was in any way difficult footwork (though I still find myself out-of-phase on occasion), but, for me, the memories of struggling with ballroom footwork.

    I would like to see the before and after stats for that change. I suspect that they would show a significant (statistically) small decline in second time returners. The dancing gets better, the dance grows more slowly.

    Perhaps we stop clapping enthusiastically in the beginners class, because we have forgotten how hard we found it. Perhaps that makes a difference.The standard is higher, the scene declines. Perhaps most of us come in special shoes, and specially bought clothes. The standard improves, the beginners feel more isolated. Perhaps more of us talk about our last weekender, or our next 50 mile trip to dance. The beginners see a bigger mountain to climb. Most of us are looking up, we do not see down.

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