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Thread: Cool Catz Closes .......

  1. #61
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    Re: Elitism

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    ... which is a bad thing in what sense?
    At the Orchid ballroom there were no lessons, basically all freestyle. There was a minority who could and would dance, and they mostly shuffled around very amatuerishly. I only ever remember a few very old geezers who could dance, reliving a bit of the good times, and they stayed together. At the few beginners classes I did there was the teacher, and us beginners. I never saw, let alone danced with, an intermediate. The music was still there, the ballrooms were still there, but ballroom dancing was in sad decline. If I had known the likes of the Strictly Come Dancing team I, and many others, might still be doing ballroom today. Somewhere the champions were practicing and performing, but I never saw them.

    At Ceroc I see people. who have travelled around the world on the basis of their dancing ability, dancing with beginners on their first night. I fear it is a culture that is eventually doomed by good intentions, but I want to keep it for as long as possible.

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    Registered User Daisy Chain's Avatar
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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus

    …… but in the final analysis not enough people kept on coming.
    ...which is why I stopped coming. I had a great time until the numbers dropped off and would have continued to be a regular customer. The early sessions were great with fab music and dancers and I thought you were onto a winner and was very surprised that dancers have been staying away in recent weeks. I guess it didn't help to have Cool Catz on the same nights as ordinary freestyles.


    In a similar vein, I went to Blitz Bowden last night for the first time in ages on a Tuesday. Packed with dancers..............but mostly women There were female wallflowers at least 2 deep around the walls and consequently 100% overworked men who didn't have the energy to keep us all even remotely satisfied. I won't be going there again so Blitz have lost a potentially regular customer. I wonder how many other women left early muttering the same vow?

    Daisy

    (An Uncool Little Wallflower)
    Last edited by Daisy Chain; 23rd-March-2005 at 01:25 PM.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    Somehow dancers become advanced. We may not know exactly how the system works, but it does.
    True ... but the current 'hit and miss' development is extrememly inefficient and many good dancers miss the opportuntity to develop. In area without role models, where there are few 'advanced level' teachers ... what chance do dancers have?

    Dancers who have the benefit of the likes of Central Regions depth of teachers, or London dancers who have access to the great independant teachers are you lucky minority. For the rest of the UK, regardless of the standard of some teachers, there is not the environment for them to develop to such an extent. (IMHO)

    Re these dancers being an 'elite' ... well I think some would find the term insulting. To use a much over-used example ... turn up to Jango on night, regardless of your standard. I've seen up to 12 nationally rated dancers there ... and not a suggestion of eliteisim. You can have the likes of Will, Kate, DaveB, Lily etc. dancing with people who have limited dance expertise ... and taking time to coach as they do. I see far more 'elitisim' at any Ceroc club than I have seen with these dancing legends!

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Chain
    In a similar vein, I went to Blitz Bowden last night for the first time in ages on a Tuesday. Packed with dancers..............but mostly women There were female wallflowers at least 2 deep around the walls and consequently 100% overworked men who didn't have the energy to keep us all even remotely satisfied. I won't be going there again so Blitz have lost a potentially regular customer. I wonder how many other women left early muttering the same vow?
    Funnily enough, although I lived round the corner, I used to drive across to the Chester club because I loathed the Bowden venue so. The music sucked, the dancefloor was too packed to dance and many of the good dancers ended up standing out lamenting the demise of the club Of course the management are crying all the way to the bank with the numbers they get

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    This is true but I suspect it's likely to be down to them drawing on previous dance experience/background
    Which could be why there's so much interest in the current ballroom / Latin lessons - maybe the people don't want to Cha-cha, they want to improve their MJ by adding cha-cha style?

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy Chain
    ...which is why I stopped coming. I had a great time until the numbers dropped off and would have continued to be a regular customer.
    I think there's a critical mass for dance venues - if it gets too small, people hear that it's quiet, and don't go. OTOH, good reputation similarly works to draw people in (Hipsters and Jango in London) - you seem to get both negative and positive feedback cycles, and it's usually word-of-mouth from what I can tell. I only find out about the cool places a year later, so I'm way behind everyone else...

  7. #67
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Re these dancers being an 'elite' ... well I think some would find the term insulting. To use a much over-used example ... turn up to Jango on night, regardless of your standard. I've seen up to 12 nationally rated dancers there ... and not a suggestion of eliteisim. You can have the likes of Will, Kate, DaveB, Lily etc. dancing with people who have limited dance expertise ... and taking time to coach as they do. I see far more 'elitisim' at any Ceroc club than I have seen with these dancing legends!
    ....

    Well said.

    I'm completely sick of the way the word 'elite' has all these negative connotations, and mostly the most vocal whingers are the ones that never actually go and find out what the reality is.

    Just as school kids that want to succeed academically mark themselves out as different and get labelled and ridiculed as swots, dancers that aren't satisfied with mediocre mark themselves out as different from all the people that are happy to dance for years without caring a damn that they aren't improving, or are just a yanking lead or a random follow. And just like school kids that are labelled, the dancers get labelled as elitist, no matter what the reality of how much they give back to the dance, and to dancers not as accomplished as themselves

    If no one aspired to be a better dancer, a better performer, a better teacher there would be no one for the rest of us to emulate, no one to be entertained by, no one to learn from.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    Somehow dancers become advanced. We may not know exactly how the system works, but it does.
    I think we do know how the 'system' works - but I don't think it's a system.

    It starts with someone that enjoys dancing and wants to improve. So they practise lots, and actively seek out good teaching (workshops, weekenders, advanced classes where they're available). They get better, and dance more with better dancers. And keep practising, and seek out more good teaching...

    In other words, they take responsibility for their own development.

    Maybe it's simply the situation that nowhere, except possibly London, are there enough people that want advanced classes to make such a thing a commercial success, and the people that do want to become advanced will succeed in doing so anyway - eventually, in the hit/miss way that is the norm without good teaching...

    The point is that people such as Nigel, Nina, Amir, Will, Kate, David, Lily, Gus to name the ones I'm aware of, are seeking to make advanced dancing more accessible, not less.

    Those that associate accomplishment with elitism in a purely negative way are just not thinking straight.

    And no one is holding a gun to people's heads and making them go to advanced classes if they don't want to, so why are people so antsy about giving people the opportunity to become better dancers if that's what they want to do?

    As Gus says, the people at the very top put a lot of effort into helping those that are coming up behind them, and to suggest that they're elitist in any sense other than just wanting to promote excellence is just an insult.

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    Registered User Rhythm King's Avatar
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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    ....

    Well said.

    I'm completely sick of the way the word 'elite' has all these negative connotations, and mostly the most vocal whingers are the ones that never actually go and find out what the reality is.

    Just as school kids that want to succeed academically mark themselves out as different and get labelled and ridiculed as swots, dancers that aren't satisfied with mediocre mark themselves out as different from all the people that are happy to dance for years without caring a damn that they aren't improving, or are just a yanking lead or a random follow. And just like school kids that are labelled, the dancers get labelled as elitist, no matter what the reality of how much they give back to the dance, and to dancers not as accomplished as themselves

    If no one aspired to be a better dancer, a better performer, a better teacher there would be no one for the rest of us to emulate, no one to be entertained by, no one to learn from.



    I think we do know how the 'system' works - but I don't think it's a system.

    It starts with someone that enjoys dancing and wants to improve. So they practise lots, and actively seek out good teaching (workshops, weekenders, advanced classes where they're available). They get better, and dance more with better dancers. And keep practising, and seek out more good teaching...

    In other words, they take responsibility for their own development.

    Maybe it's simply the situation that nowhere, except possibly London, are there enough people that want advanced classes to make such a thing a commercial success, and the people that do want to become advanced will succeed in doing so anyway - eventually, in the hit/miss way that is the norm without good teaching...

    The point is that people such as Nigel, Nina, Amir, Will, Kate, David, Lily, Gus to name the ones I'm aware of, are seeking to make advanced dancing more accessible, not less.

    Those that associate accomplishment with elitism in a purely negative way are just not thinking straight.

    And no one is holding a gun to people's heads and making them go to advanced classes if they don't want to, so why are people so antsy about giving people the opportunity to become better dancers if that's what they want to do?

    As Gus says, the people at the very top put a lot of effort into helping those that are coming up behind them, and to suggest that they're elitist in any sense other than just wanting to promote excellence is just an insult.
    and the same for Gus' comments too, on the quality, humility and total lack of cliqueyness demonstrated by the so-called elite. Incidentally, from my background, the true elite were to be respected, admired and aspired to, not villified.

    R-K

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    ....

    Well said.

    I'm completely sick of the way the word 'elite' has all these negative connotations, and mostly the most vocal whingers are the ones that never actually go and find out what the reality is................................................ ..........

    As Gus says, the people at the very top put a lot of effort into helping those that are coming up behind them, and to suggest that they're elitist in any sense other than just wanting to promote excellence is just an insult.



    can't give you rep Chris - excellent post

    ........................ and what Gus said

    Elitism is in the eye of the beholder, it seems to me

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    My dictionary has Elite - the best of a group. I should be insulted like that. Nobody should be ashamed to aspire to being among the best in a group.

    And naturally we want to be led by the best.

    And, as sure as night follows day, this perfectly natural tendency leads to, with absolutely no negative connotations, -

    Elitism - a recourse to, or advocacy of dominance of a select group.

    My posts contained nothing of the elements of refusing to dance with the plebs. (That speration works both ways. I have still sometimes the feeling that X would not want to dance with mere moi, and do not ask.)

    When the elite want, quite naturally, to dance with their peers, and they leave Hicksville for the long trip to Hipsteria, they may dance with every local yokel that they meet there, but the fact is that the beginners at Hicksville are deprived of their presence, inspiration and guidance.

    It is not behaviour limited to the stars. There is still an Elite in Hicksville, even though in some Hicksville it is someone who can use 8 different moves in freestyle, and usually get them right.

    It is not a planned system, it is how it works. People develop, migrate and congregate.

    You are all reading insults I have not written. I migrate the other way. I recently went to a venue that is struggling, just as research to find out what they were doing wrong. The answer was - nothing that I could see. I liked the venue, teacher, DJ and crew. They told me that as soon as any newcomer reaches intermediate stage they migrate to other venues with better dancers. I am sure that they are met at those other venues with the same friendly helpful ethos that I have found everywhere throughout modern jive.

    I do not know where the ballroom elite danced in my day, I suspect that it was the Hammersmith Palais. At my local venue there was no-one to inspire me, and no-one I found that could help me develop. I discovered Jive, and learned by observation, and, like most of my generation, abandoned ballroom. It is not that the elite are deliberately exclusive, is is just that they can only be in one place at one time, and that is often not their local venue. As it happens there were a couple of top class dancers visiting Hicksville when I was there, dancing with the beginners, and telling them that real dancers do Lindy.

    I have no negative feelings about anyone. It is just the way things are.

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    And while I am at it: System - "a set of connected things or parts that form a whole and work together". In the worlds of Systems Analysis, Operations research and the Theory of Games one becomes familiar with the idea that attempting to make things better in one small corner can make things worse in the bigger picture. It is possible for people to be using all of their efforts with the purest of hearts to make things better, but in fact do the opposite.

  12. #72
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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    It is possible for people to be using all of their efforts with the purest of hearts to make things better, but in fact do the opposite.
    It is possible ..... but that does not apply here. The development of better dancers in the North can be directly related to the arrival of Viktor and N&N workshops in the North in 1999 to 2001. These workshops had a snowball effect in terms of dancers being inspired and other dancers developing enough to become teachers and thus pass on the word of 'advanced dance'.

    I still believe there is a future for advanced clubs. Giving better dancers an environment to experiment, dance to the edge of their limits and be more creative allows these dancers then to take this new experience/confidence out to the masses.

    Another way forward is the use of 'advanced lessons' at normal clubs. However, the problem I've seen in these lessons is that the students may not be up to the standard of the lesson. This does bring in the whole debate about vetting who does classes although I have no idea how to make it happen, I believe this needs to take place to make sure that the dancers in a focused class are of an appropriate level. Please note that I'm NOT saying that you have to be advanced to do an advanced lesson ... I think how we defined it is that these lessons were for dancers who want to [i]become[/] advanced ... a small but important difference.

    OK ... ramble over

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Maybe the people don't want to Cha-cha, they want to improve their MJ by adding cha-cha style?
    Perhaps true. Learning to cha-cha would allow them to add a cha-cha style to their MJ, but I suppose it's hard work - an MJ "Latin workshop" offers a shortcut. I had imagined that the sorts of people who go to "advanced" workshops would be more willing to put the work in, as opposed to seeking the easy option. Perhaps this is one reason why clubs like Cool Catz have difficulties?

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    Registered User El Salsero Gringo's Avatar
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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    It is possible for people to be using all of their efforts with the purest of hearts to make things better, but in fact do the opposite.
    Someone had better tell this to McGregor.

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ... The development of better dancers in the North can be directly related to the arrival of Viktor and N&N workshops in the North in 1999 to 2001. These workshops had a snowball effect in terms of dancers being inspired and other dancers developing enough to become teachers and thus pass on the word of 'advanced dance'.

    I am all in favour of workshops, or of importing guest teachers, or even just the odd visit from a dance god / godess.

    I still believe there is a future for advanced clubs.
    So do I, and I am sorry that your brave attempt failed.
    Giving better dancers an environment to experiment, dance to the edge of their limits and be more creative allows these dancers ...
    All good stuff

    ...then to take this new experience/confidence out to the masses.
    but why? Why not stick with your peer group where you are more comfortable, and can develop further, faster. It is the old "the wealth will trickle down" argument.
    In some circumstances it does, in others it gets concentrated, and the poor get poorer. I suspect that Kool Katz was having a great positive effect on the general standard of dancing just because it was not retaining regulars at the hoped for rate. They were going back to their regular venues and passing on what they had learned.

    Another way forward is the use of 'advanced lessons' at normal clubs.
    Or, another way, as seems to happen in my local venues, little bits of more advanced ideas are trickled into the normal classes, or are passed on person to person. We do not get Viktor or Amir, but I think we do get bits of them, and at a pace we can absorb them.

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ...
    Another way forward is the use of 'advanced lessons' at normal clubs. However, the problem I've seen in these lessons is that the students may not be up to the standard of the lesson. This does bring in the whole debate about vetting who does classes although I have no idea how to make it happen, I believe this needs to take place to make sure that the dancers in a focused class are of an appropriate level. Please note that I'm NOT saying that you have to be advanced to do an advanced lesson ... I think how we defined it is that these lessons were for dancers who want to [i]become[/] advanced ... a small but important difference.

    ...
    You might be interested then in what happens here in Sydney?

    There are regular "intermediate/advanced" lessons (monthly at most venues, weekly at the "flagship" venue). These are more challenging lessons, taught instead of the intermediate class. Intermediates and more advanced dancers do the class at the same time, but in separate rotations (i.e. there are intermediate lines and intermediate/advanced lines). To be allowed to join the I/A line you need to do a "driving test" with an I/A teacher, who'll give you either a "license", or instructions on what you need to improve.

    With some people the "license" system is a real motivator to improve (if nothing else, some people just love collecting badges/certificates), with some people it's a de-motivator. I'm not sure what the proportions are.

    They were also running for a while "advanced" lessons, which ran at the same time as the intermediate lesson, in another room. This hasn't happened for a while, partly because it's hard to find three teachers/rooms (beginner progression, intermediate, advanced).

    Also, Nicky/Robert have just finished running a six-week "becoming advanced" course of two-hour workshops. The workshops were open to anyone, and were mainly focussed on style and musicality rather than moves and more moves. They were very popular and very successful (there has been very obvious improvement in the dancing of the people who attended).

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ...Another way forward is the use of 'advanced lessons' at normal clubs. However, the problem I've seen in these lessons is that the students may not be up to the standard of the lesson...
    As BidD said - why focus on the one small corner? why not try the blunderbuss approach and add in some 'advanced' stuff to standard 'intermediate' classes - perhaps do one less move, but spend more time on something "special"?

    In this way, everyone gets exposure, the best take it in, the next are aware of it even if they can't yet assimilate it and it's over the new intermediate dancers heads. An improvement to the whole populous instead of just an improvement to those who are already good.

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    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    As BidD said - why focus on the one small corner? why not try the blunderbuss approach and add in some 'advanced' stuff to standard 'intermediate' classes - perhaps do one less move, but spend more time on something "special"?
    This is a nice idea, but the fact is that many teachers would themselves need considerable training before they could teach the sort of thing that some are fortunate enough to have access to.

    The other thing, as Gus has mentioned, there is the issue of the ability of those in the intermediate class. Often, the average is such that many cannot get through a normal intermediate class well enough to be able to lead the routine. Loading on more advanced material would be wrong, and many wouldn't even want it - mostly they want moves, not technique.

    And when there is some material in ordinary classes that hints at a higher level, most of the people ignore it and just dance the moves anyway.

    You can make things a little more difficult in the intermediate class, but that is way different from advanced teaching.

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    Someone had better tell this to McGregor.
    Hey, I've got a pure heart

    But, to answer the comment. It is unlikely that things will get better by chance. It needs a few people with vision to create an improvement. And those improvements are always brought about by people who are willing to change. But, please remember change is not always better. It might even be worse. But, no change is almost always wrong.

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    Re: Cool Catz Closes .......

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    You can make things a little more difficult in the intermediate class, but that is way different from advanced teaching.
    I confess, I'm ignorant to "advanced teaching" - I am likening it to a good workshop, but taught from stage: is this accurate?

    I agree that this method would make teaching harder (you have to appeal to a wider base without loosing any of your 'core' people) but would the effort to get teachers up to this standard not be worth it? (assuming the teachers want this)

    From the teachers I have seen, there is a lot they could and perhaps would like to put into a class, but have to exclude on the grounds of the ability level of the class and time restrictions. Could this not be pushed ever so slightly so some little bits seep out?

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