Cool Catz Closes .......

[Gus]

Doomed to Fail?

So … after a relatively short life Cool Catz is closing. It was designed to bring something new to the existing MJ public in the North West …. An opportunity to learn how to dance than how to do ‘just’ moves, a chance to experience new music, it was challenge to the status quo ……. And this week it holds its final event.

Maybe I’m too close to the project to see why it failed. All the feedback we got was superb. The music was lauded, people found the WCS lessons inspiring, they took on board the techniques and approach from the advanced lessons …… but in the final analysis not enough people kept on coming.

Is there a future for ‘advanced’ clubs? I don’t really know. I look at Jango in London. It’s the best club I’ve ever been to in the midst of the best dancers in the UK …. But even there the numbers are small (but wonderfully proportioned ).

One of the key problems in North West is that the dancing population is ‘less educated’ and possibly doesn’t know what is possible. The hard core of dancers who wanted to improve and enjoyed the new music stood with us … but they are in the vast minority. The MJ clubs continue to churn out move monsters and make for a nice social night out ... but few are inspired or trained to develop as dancers.

So …. Will the North west continue to be a desert barren of dancing excellence (just look at its performance in Champs over the last 4 years) or does it need something different to start a transformation. Either way, Cool Catz opens its door for the last time this Friday at Knutsford …… one final last night of something special …..

[Chicklet]

shame

seriously, do you have any way of telling / finding out if it was the Friday night that was the issue?

I know I can only drag my tired and lazy backside off the couch for something VERY special (and only once a month) of a Friday.

C

[Gus]

seriously, do you have any way of telling / finding out if it was the Friday night that was the issue?

We did have Saturday nights ... but the decline was still evident. Our last event was on the same night as a normal Ceroc freestyle ... depsite everyone telling us how wonderfull we were, they still went to a bog-standard MJ night Being philisophical ... it was case of use us or loose us ... they've now lost us so the punters have themsleves to look to if they suddenly decide they want more advanced music/coaching.

The more I think about it I come to the conclusion that although many people say they want to be better, maybe they dont want to put any effort in to it ..... maybe they've just got used to it being easy ... or maybe Cool Catz was just a cr*p product and people voted with their feet

[David Bailey]

Sorry to hear that, old mate. I know you'll have put your heart and soul in it.

Is there a future for ‘advanced’ clubs? I don’t really know. I look at Jango in London. It’s the best club I’ve ever been to in the midst of the best dancers in the UK …. But even there the numbers are small (but wonderfully proportioned ).

Good question. I'd say the problem is that advanced dancers are total tarts, from venue-loyalty point of view (perfect gentlemen / women otherwise of course ). They tend to go where they want, when they want, and don't often stay with the same place to such a degree - they're willing to travel, experiment, and try different locations much more than beginners would be - and word-of-mouth seems to be the only effective way of promoting a venue to this particular audience.

So, from a business point of view, they're the floating voters of the dance community, and you can't guarantee numbers on any particular day. Hence most MJ clubs and classes steer clear of this approach - the financial downside of alienating the non-advanced crowd is worse than the upside of attracting some of the advanced crowd. I wish it were otherwise, but I think that advanced venues will be niche, small, and probably financially delicate. I'd love to be proved wrong though!

[Yogi_Bear]

I am sorry to hear that. From all I have read Cool Catz sounded like an excellent idea - the Hipsters of the north? - and I was looking forward to paying a visit next month...all the way from Norwich. I hope all the benefits won't be lost and that something equally good will arise to take its place.

[Andreas]

Sorry to read that, Gus. It is always the hardest job to teach something that is not immediately absorbable by joe block. Perhaps you should give it another try in London, much larger market

[Dance Demon]

Sorry to hear this Gus. It's always difficult trying to get the masses interested in something new. If NW England is anything like Edinburgh, you will always get the hard core of people who come along for the dance more than the social aspect, but as often as not, there aren't enough of them to justify keeping things going.We persevered with Route 66, and are now into our third year, but we have had to tweak thing a bit along the way. We used to have a basic icebreaker class at the beginning of the night, but eventually scrapped it and turned the night into a freestyle, concentrating on the music choice. This has worked in the long run, and our nights are busier now than they have ever been. Maybe if you made Cool Catz a freestyle with different music from the normal MJ nights, perhaps with the occasional blues or WCS class, it might work. Would be a shame to let all your hard work go to waste.

[Lynn]

Sorry to hear that. It sounded like a great idea, and I'm sure you had a core of regulars who loved it.

We don't really have MJ here (I'm sure you all know that by now!) but there has been a thriving salsa scene for years - yet from what I hear, very few seem to want to progress beyond learning more intermediate moves.

I think a lot of people in MJ are happy to stay at a 'competent intermediate' level indefinitely (not a level I feel I have reached yet myself alas! )

[bigdjiver]

I have been wiped out through a failed business, but have recovered. It can be done. I am not religious, but I watch T.D. Jakes in "The Potters House". The Rev. Jakes has been through many a hard time too. One show he told us how he cried and fretted because he did not get a small church that he wanted. He turned around and said "It would just about fit in that little corner over there." He was preaching in what looked like a baseball stadium, with seats filled everywhere the camera looked, as far as it could see.

In his words: "If you get it, its good. If you don't get it, it's still good." "Its all preparation."

I'd bet you have memories.

I'd bet you would not remember the nights watching TV you could have had instead.

[Lounge Lizard]

Really sorry to hear about the closure, i know how hard you have worked on cool Katz

It is not an area thing, as you say Jango does not get big numbers, at 'The Ritz' (our Twickenham venue) we have Nina Daines, Simon Selmon & Rena (from Andy & Rena) as our regular teachers for blues & musicality.
between them the have won 1 world title and 11 national titles in dance yet we struggle with numbers.
Hipsters (Wednesday's) had Nigel, Viktor, Amir Roger, Franco - the biggest & the best in teachers, orghanisers & DJ's - yet it closed

DavidJames got it about right, if it is a bit off the mainstream you will not get big numbers.

It is so tempting for us to take the MJ route and go for mainstream dancers, our venue has a fantastic floor, easy access, parking, bar etc. but like you we really want to offer that little bit more, and make the blues accepted as a dance form in the same way ML, Lindy, WCS, are. and not an excuse for sleazy UCP moves.

There is interest in this dance style (just look at the other threads on this forum covering UCP, Blues & moves) but whether that interest ever makes our venture popular enough to be a success, or (as is the case at the moment) everyone says how good but go back to their regular MJ venue.

We are aiming to bring in new dancers, but like your Cool Katz the nature of what we teach is a long way from the basic MJ beginners class and developing newbies needs time and experienced dancers in the venue.

Hipsters (Tuesdays) gets good numbers but the average MJ club gets lots more in comparrisom
Hipsters Wednesdays closes
Jango is the best out there it seems, but has low numbers
The Ritz has low numbers at the moment
Cool Katz closes
Bisley WCS closed

Is there the demand for clubs that offer that extra something? - Perhaps not.
Are we trying to take the dancers further than they want to go? wish I knew the answers to this one

Sorry, did not mean to steal your thread Gus, but it does make me wonder if the effort to open a 'special' club is worth it - I personaly think it is cos if we don't try it we will never know if it can be successful.

What would the dancers like (if anything) in a 'special club' that goes that bit beyond the basic MJ model?
and if we provided the ideal model to fit the dancers wants how far or how long would you travell to get there? ANd most immportantly how often would you go there?
Peter

[jivecat]

Is there the demand for clubs that offer that extra something? - Perhaps not.
Are we trying to take the dancers further than they want to go? wish I knew the answers to this one
..............
What would the dancers like (if anything) in a 'special club' that goes that bit beyond the basic MJ model?
and if we provided the ideal model to fit the dancers wants how far or how long would you travell to get there? ANd most immportantly how often would you go there?
Peter

Really sorry to hear that it's closing, Gus, it was good to see something like Cool Cats provided outside London.

In theory I would be prepared to travel up to an hour and a half on special occasions but not on a Friday night. I'm tired & the motorway's busy. Realistically, I don't really go anywhere that takes more than about an hour.

I don't know if this is at all workable, but why not offer advanced lessons at venues which are operating successfully as a general, social venue? Just as the beginners are withdrawn for a top-up lesson, could not some space be found to conduct advanced lessons based on the features that have been discussed in other threads at the same time that the intermediate lesson is going on? Or, if that is not practicable, hold advanced lessons alternately with intermediate lessons, or every fourth week, for example. And inform the punters that this is what will happen and what the content of the lessons will be. Or hold a short advanced lesson in a separate room at around 9:45 while everyone else is doing freestyle? (This wouldn't require anything extra in terms of teachers/money/space.) Beginners/intermediates could be shortened to 3 moves only to make time for it.

I gather that in New Zealand there is some arrangement whereby advanced lessons happen during ordinary weeknights. Can anyone tell me more?

I think it's important that everyone knows that progress doesn't stop after you reach intermediate level. Move monsters assume that is all they need to know and nobody really informs them otherwise. There might even be some macho, competitive desire to attend advanced classes which might open up a whole new world for some, though I've always been an advocate of moving up a level only when previous skills have been mastered.

Sorry, I'm sure all these things must have been mentioned on previous threads, I just started thinking about it again.

[Chef]

I am extremely sorry to hear this Gus. I wished this venture all the best (even though it was from afar) from the very start.

Specialist venues will attract those people that have been dancing for quite a while and want something that is different from what they have been getting most nights of the week for all those dancing years.

I would love to be able to get to Jango or Hipsters on a regular basis because they have the teaching, music and other dancers of a level that are a challenge for me to rise to. The problem is that that it is an hour and forty five minutes to get to these venues for me and I get back home at between 2 and 3am (on a work night). Friday nights at Hipsters at least doesn't have the prospect of having to go to work the next day but after a full week of work and other dancing commitments I end up entering the venue feeling utterly exhausted before I even start dancing. If only they could do it on a Saturday night.

Lounge Lizards venue falls just at my outer limit for a specialist dance venue for a workday night (it takes me an hour on the motorway from work and one and a half to get back home) and I will try to get there as often as I can. I travel there because it is a specialist blues venue (the only one I know) but I now see that he wants to be playing more latin style tracks in his evening. This is starting to make the journey marginal for me. I get latin music to dance to everywhere I go and it breaks up the blues mood of the evening as you constantly change between styles. For me, this stops the mood of the dance to sink into my bones.

A lot of dancers want to master other styles or dance to more challenging music and turn up at these new ventures. The trouble is that they find themselves back down at the bottom end of the learning curve and don't like it. As a result they get disheartened. It is much easier for them to go back to their standard MJ event where they can be looked on as "advanced dancers" than to find themselves as smaller fish in a bigger pool. I know when I go to Hipsters I have that feeling of "Oh gosh, they are all so good here".

I wish I knew the answer to your problem. If I did I would keep it to myself, open a venue and make lots of money . I get bored very quickly if I feel I am not improving at something. I dread the feeling fo being stuck on a dancing "platuea" which is why I go to a great deal of effort to get to venues, like yours, that have a Unique Selling Point.

The failure of your venture, where you tried to bring top quality teaching and music to dancers, will be a sad day for dancers in your area. I just fear that it will take them a few years to realise that.

Best wishes in your future ventures.

Happy Dancing.

[DianaS]

I'm so glad we came last Friday, it was a great night and not spoilt by knowing it would be almost the last. We thought it was the beginning for us and had already decided we would be coming back for more Let us know what your next exploit is Gus it was good to meet you.

[David Bailey]

it does make me wonder if the effort to open a 'special' club is worth it - I personaly think it is cos if we don't try it we will never know if it can be successful.

From a purely business point of view, I don't think so It almost has to be more precarious than a standard venue; you're appealing to a smaller audience, who are less local, and who probably can't make it there every week. As you say, even for renowned venues like Hipsters, with superb style teaching, the numbers are lower than a standard class. Of course, you could charge more - but then probably even less people would come. I suspect the only viable option for advanced classes is to keep the venues small - less overhead, less risk. But small dance venues in good locations are difficult to find.
However, I'd like to say that I for one appreciate the effort other organisers (and Gus of course) are putting into trying to raise the game for some venues - as a dancer, it's great to know that there are advanced sessions I can go to. But short of someone from the "mainstream" organisations officially marketing and promoting these advanced venues as a natural next step, I suspect they'll stay niche...
[/QUOTE]

[Andy McGregor]

Three cheers for Gus

Gus, I'm really sorry to hear that you're closing. It was courageous of you to start this venue and it takes an even braver man to close something that is his dream

I'm certain that it won't be long before you're back with something new to impress us all

[Gadget]

Real sad to see it fold Gus

I think that people do want to learn, and are willing to put in some effort, but that effort & focus is generally on weekenders and specific specialist workshops. A regular night is less of an 'event' to get psyched up for.

I like the idea of a night with 'more challenging' music. Would it work if you had an 'informal' type of workshop an hour before hand for dedicated people, then open the doors to the general populous?
Less preperation, more a sort of "I thought we would look at X this week - any comments?" and wing the rest of it.

[Trousers]

You intimated you were on the verge of closing when DianaS, Northants Girly and I dropped in at Knutsford.
I think it sucks when the independents get pushed to the wall. You guys bring more to the scene than someone trying to make a buck or two and I for one will miss your input. But like Andy Mc says roll on the next venture 'cos it's bound to be another cracker.
Respect!

[bigdjiver]

... Of course, you could charge more - but then probably even less people would come...

People were / are coming long distances to get to these specialist, "something extra", venues. The effective price they are / were paying is far above the admission. An extra £2, £3, or £5 would deter very few from "trying it once" but could make the vital difference to the organiser. If Gus has the stats, I suggest that he go back through them and see how many people came just the once (no reflection on the venue) and do the simple math - that many * £(guess).
Then think what might have happened if he had spent that extra money on even more promotion.
Even a crude business model on a spreadsheet can give a good feel for a business, and the results can be surprisingly accurate. I tried to convince the two computer companies I was dependent on to change their policy based on my business models. One's reaction was "It's all guesswork." Even more depressingly the others was "What's a spreadsheet?". They both went out of business, to the month, just as I predicted. Alas, I had preceded them.

It is "All preparation".

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.

[Gus]

Some thought provoking posts. Also, many thanks for all the support and best wishes

few quick thoughts of my own...

I'm certain that it won't be long before you're back with something new to impress us all

Not likely! To be honest the experience with loosing my main club has put me off organising for life ... TOO much hassle.

But short of someone from the "mainstream" organisations officially marketing and promoting these advanced venues as a natural next step, I suspect they'll stay niche...

We did try to work with the Big Boys but they were only interested in their market share etc .... think they thought we were as a threat where as we were only too keen to promote other clubs. I always thought it would be a symbiotic relationship. How naive...

Sorry, did not mean to steal your thread Gus, but it does make me wonder if the effort to open a 'special' club is worth it - I personally think it is cos if we don't try it we will never know if it can be successful.

Well put (liked the rest of your post as well). at the end I didn’t just set up CC out of altruistic motives. It was there to satisfy a need in me to teach at a higher level and bring music to the masses that isn’t heard outside London (excluding Scotland of course). Teaching at that level helped me to become a better teacher (I hope) in the same way that dancing in competitions makes you a better dancer.

Maybe if you made Cool Catz a freestyle with different music from the normal MJ nights, perhaps with the occasional blues or WCS class, it might work.

.. actually thats exactly what we were .. TOTALY different to anything on offer ... as was the music. The nearest to our product is Jango .... though the music was probably a bit 'safer' that that of the awesome TWK

Trying to put all in context .. it was a great experience for all concerned ... some of our dancers will now challenge their dancing levels and start to take things on on their own. Maybe the music challenges will make people go out and challenge the status quo. Despite all the hardships and heartache I think all the crew had a great time doing it. If it wasn’t for the trouble with Blitz and me now being out of the area ... then we probably would have persevered. I said I wouldn’t do it again ... but I suppose I should never say never. In London we have Jango, which meets many of the needs which I set up CC to address. If Jango ever take the concept of the road, maybe I could be part of that.

If I have one thought that stays with me ... I think its for those who have access to these events but who always think ... "maybe I'll go next week". These clubs need support to survive. There will always be a standard MJ club in your area, advanced clubs are rarer than hens teach .... USE THEM OR LOOSE THEM!!

[Minnie M]

....... the experience with loosing my main club has put me off organising for life ... TOO much hassle.........

Please please do not give up Gus, the MJ world needs people like you to help it move on - it may just be a case of they are not ready for it yet

Hipsters on a Tuesday is for the more confident dancer and it has proved there IS a requirement.

Jango on the other hand is one level up from Hipsters as some of the music is challenging (I think it is fantastic). I would go EVERY week if it was nearer, the word has just to get around, plus IMO Monday is not the best day in the week to go dancing - I certainly hope it picks up.

However it must be difficult to know when to draw that line, I suppose that depends of the financial bit !

Even though it is not my area - I thank you for trying and wish you well and please try again in about a year (maybe )