Beginner Moves: Tips & advice

[Gadget]

Prompted by Ducasi's posts on the thread First time impressions where he says (Another brief aside - haven't had much feedback on my impressions of the moves themselves through the weeks. Anyone want to jump in with some discussion here?)...

This week was a bit difficult. Here are the moves...

1) Yoyo, this time without a push-spin, but with a spin anyway. I though the difference between a spin and a turn was that with a spin you let go? No? We were told to spin the lady, but not let go. Guess it doesn't make too much difference.

2) Catapult. Woah! This is v. tricky. It's hard to tell though if you're messing it up or it's your partner, as it's all really happening behind your back! I certainly messed it up quite a lot, but sometimes my partner at the time would be blaming herself. Maybe they were just being nice, though when I was dancing with known experienced dancers it usually seemed to go better.

3) Can't remember the name of this move - but it's dead easy... L-R hands, swap sides with guy doing 180º anticlockwise turn under his left arm, etc... What's this called?

4) That fed into the basket, with the usual botched efforts when trying to get the girl's other hand. I'm not good at baskets.

4a) During the return from the basket, swap hands to go into the yoyo... It's funny how much time the teacher and taxis spent on this as I found it dead easy. OK, maybe I'm not doing it in the most elegant fashion possible, but that'll come, I guess...

1) Yo-Yo; the difference between the spin and the turn is that for the spin you change to a flat hand hold in preperation, then push down to send the lady into a free-spin. The turn raises above the lady's head in a small halo & step back to finish.

2) Cattapult; A couple of things - make sure that your right hand brushes past your thigh on the lead into it. After the lady has turned under yourr arm and you extend it behind you, mirror your other arm back as well. for the lady to catch.
- From the point when she is beside you, it is taught to draw a big (reversed) "C" at waist level to spin the lady out. I would recommend that instead of releasing the hand to your left, you actually continue the curve to start the lady turning and release the hand away from you.

3) probably the man's turn. Just be carefull that you don't raise the arm too early or the lady will try to turn under it instead of you.

4) a basket is fairly easy if you have the right preperation into it: from a return (lady turning anti-clockwise); when her back is to you, extend your right arm at a fraction above her elbow level and take the spare hand as she steps back. This hand remains where it is for the rest of the move - just leave it.
Continue the lady like another return, but step in beside her. As you lower and step back, if you step back on your Right foot rather than left, it feels much smoother & less distorted/stretched.

4a) If done well, the lady should not even notice that you've changed hands. (I use this all the time during lessons because I always catch with the wrong hand. ) When you can do it without her noticing and collect for a double handed move, then you will have it mastered.

[ducasi]

Prompted by Ducasi's posts on the thread First time impressions where he says (Another brief aside - haven't had much feedback on my impressions of the moves themselves through the weeks. Anyone want to jump in with some discussion here?)...

Hey, thanks for the input!

1) Yo-Yo; the difference between the spin and the turn is that for the spin you change to a flat hand hold in preperation, then push down to send the lady into a free-spin. The turn raises above the lady's head in a small halo & step back to finish.

So as DavidJames said in the original thread, it was a turn I was being taught, despite the teacher calling it a spin. Hmmm... Maybe my memory is failing me, but I also thought she was telling us to use the flat hand hold before the turn/spin. Whatever.

2) Cattapult; A couple of things - make sure that your right hand brushes past your thigh on the lead into it. After the lady has turned under yourr arm and you extend it behind you, mirror your other arm back as well. for the lady to catch.
- From the point when she is beside you, it is taught to draw a big (reversed) "C" at waist level to spin the lady out. I would recommend that instead of releasing the hand to your left, you actually continue the curve to start the lady turning and release the hand away from you.

I think that's maybe how we were being taught - at least, I wasn't letting go until my left hand was quite far right - actually pulling my partner back into the spin. Don't think I was doing this quite right though.

3) probably the man's turn. Just be carefull that you don't raise the arm too early or the lady will try to turn under it instead of you.

Don't think I had that problem - though I kept messing something up while dancing with the more experienced dancers, and this might have been it. Not sure, I really can't remember much from the carnage on the dance floor.

4) a basket is fairly easy if you have the right preperation into it: from a return (lady turning anti-clockwise); when her back is to you, extend your right arm at a fraction above her elbow level and take the spare hand as she steps back. This hand remains where it is for the rest of the move - just leave it.
Continue the lady like another return, but step in beside her. As you lower and step back, if you step back on your Right foot rather than left, it feels much smoother & less distorted/stretched.

Interesting you suggest this. When I was first learning, I was stepping back on the "wrong" foot, but corrected myself eventually. My main problem with the basket, I guess, is that I always forget I need to have a double hand-hold before I go into it - now I think about it, this was maybe one major factor in the disaster that was my dancing.

4a) If done well, the lady should not even notice that you've changed hands. (I use this all the time during lessons because I always catch with the wrong hand. ) When you can do it without her noticing and collect for a double handed move, then you will have it mastered.

I've found it handy too. You'd have to ask my partners to see if they noticed, but I got lots of "impressed" looks from my changing hands - again, I don't know why as it seemed so easy.

Thanks again!

Anyone else want to share their wisdom? Maybe also on some of the moves I talked about in earlier posts?

[David Bailey]

Hmmm... Maybe my memory is failing me, but I also thought she was telling us to use the flat hand hold before the turn/spin. Whatever.

A flat hand hold is the standard signal, used to signify a spin. If you were being taught a flat hand hold for a turn, that's a bit weird...

I think that's maybe how we were being taught - at least, I wasn't letting go until my left hand was quite far right - actually pulling my partner back into the spin. Don't think I was doing this quite right though.

Catapult is one of those weird moves that only comes with practice, timing-wise; don't worry about it, keep using it and it'll "click" at some point.

When I was first learning, I was stepping back on the "wrong" foot

Hmm, not sure if that's possible in Ceroc - just step back on the foot you feel most comfortable on, I think most teachers say. Although I'm not sure if that's Ceroc Gospel.

[drathzel]

3. step across

[El Salsero Gringo]

A flat hand hold is the standard signal, used to signify a spin. If you were being taught a flat hand hold for a turn, that's a bit weird...

Ducasi is quite correct. In fact, Yo-yos and Yo-yo Pushspins have always been taught both to have a flat hand-to-hand elbow-to-elbow position. I still have my printed "Taxi-dancer's Standard Phraseology for the Beginner's Moves", issued 2001, with most of the teaching script for the moves that were then taught. I think that goes for the official teaching of the new Yo-yos too. No doubt this has been discussed on the Forum before, eh Martin?

[Gadget]

I think that's maybe how we were being taught - at least, I wasn't letting go until my left hand was quite far right - actually pulling my partner back into the spin. Don't think I was doing this quite right though.

the end of the cattapult: the lady is to your left side, behind a barrier made with your left arm. Your right arm is in a half-nelson type thing behind your back.
- Release your right hand right
- at waist level, your hand should travel in an arc forward and towards your right, drawing the lady infront of you; left hand is now opposite your right hip at waist level, the arm is fairly straight throught this segment. The lady's feet are infront of yours (never mind where she's facing)
- Continue the motion into a curve in towards your belly, then out again to the mirror position opposite your left hip
- Push the hand directly away from you, continuing the smooth curve and let go.

Doing it this way brings her quite close - just beware of the trailing elbow & try to avoid it.

Interesting you suggest this. When I was first learning, I was stepping back on the "wrong" foot, but corrected myself eventually.

When mimicing stuff from the stage, there is a "wrong foot". In freestyle, there is not (thank goodness! )

My main problem with the basket, I guess, is that I always forget I need to have a double hand-hold before I go into it - now I think about it, this was maybe one major factor in the disaster that was my dancing.

A bit more "advanced", but if you get the timing right you can step in while the lady does a turn and wrap her into your right hand side: a one-handed basket. This works best if you meet half-way*; the start to the turn has to be a gentle pull-forward, then step in when her back is to you. You have to use your right hand on her right hip as a reinforcement to the lead with the left hand telling her to stop the turn half way.
(*or as a second turn, making it a turn and a half.)

3. step across

yea, well; they are all called something like "twiddly move with thingie" in my head - I have to work out what everyone else calls them

[clevedonboy]

The Catapult is a right B of a move for beginners (& just out of beginners like me come to that). My wife has pointed out to me how useful it is to use a "butchers grip" when leading in to this move - like you would hold a ball if you were going to toss it under arm, gives a hint that something different is coming anyway. The other thing I'd say from experience with this one is to not give in to the temptation to rush the move.

[Lou]

The Catapult is a right B of a move for beginners (& just out of beginners like me come to that). My wife has pointed out to me how useful it is to use a "butchers grip" when leading in to this move - like you would hold a ball if you were going to toss it under arm, gives a hint that something different is coming anyway. The other thing I'd say from experience with this one is to not give in to the temptation to rush the move.

Yeah - I think we even chatted about the butchers grip handhold last Tuesday, too. I agree with Mrs Clevedon - it does provide a handy hint to we ladies that something different is coming.

I always think of the man's arm action as being like bowling a cricket ball, as the lady travels underneath his arm & to a postition behind him. But that's just me.

[spindr]

I always think of the man's arm action as being like bowling a cricket ball, as the lady travels underneath his arm & to a postition behind him. But that's just me.

No it's not

SpinDr

[David Bailey]

Ducasi is quite correct. In fact, Yo-yos and Yo-yo Pushspins have always been taught both to have a flat hand-to-hand elbow-to-elbow position. I still have my printed "Taxi-dancer's Standard Phraseology for the Beginner's Moves", issued 2001, with most of the teaching script for the moves that were then taught. I think that goes for the official teaching of the new Yo-yos too. No doubt this has been discussed on the Forum before, eh Martin?

I sit corrected
Still seems strange to me though - how does the follower know whether to turn or spin, if the handhold is the same for both?

[Lou]

No it's not

SpinDr

But considering the old LeRoc.Net site provided some of the input into AfterFive, it still could just be me!

[ducasi]

So I'm glad I'm not the only one that is puzzled by the not-a-spin spin in the yoyo.

how does the follower know whether to turn or spin?

I guess because I don't push, and regain some hold on her hand.


The catapult arm thing seems to be a bit like a backward under-arm bowling manoeuvre, but as I don't play cricket, I'm not 100% sure how good a description that is. From what I understand, you "signal" with a cupped hand-hold, you then sweep your arm backwards in a circle until it's up in the air, at which point the girl should have done whatever it is she's doing (that I can't see because it's all happening behind me!) and the arm comes back out at the same time as you catch her other hand with your left. I'll leave thinking about the spin bit for another time.

A bit more "advanced", but if you get the timing right you can step in while the lady does a turn and wrap her into your right hand side: a one-handed basket. ...

Nice idea, but I think I'll wait before trying this until I'm a little bit more advanced.

When mimicing stuff from the stage, there is a "wrong foot". In freestyle, there is not (thank goodness! )

Our teacher and taxi dancers have emphasised stepping back on the left a lot. They must want us to do that for some reason.

3. step across

That's the fella! I love these moves, they're so easy!

Thanks guys! I guess what I really need is practice. Just have to find someone who's willing to work with me... Hmmm...

[Chef]

Our teacher and taxi dancers have emphasised stepping back on the left a lot. They must want us to do that for some reason.

I know a large number of moves where the footwork pattern will only work out correctly if the man steps back on the left and the woman steps back on the right as the first step. For the beginner moves this isn't hugely important but it is worth getting into the habit of taking your first step back on the left at this stage so you don't encounter problems when you come across these moves later.

Speaking of not developing habits that are later hard to break. Try very hard not to look down at your feet. It can be a hugely difficult habit to break at a later stage. I had such a problem with this at my ballroom and latin classes that I took up a teachers suggestion and bought a foam surgical support collar. I felt a bit of a prat but it got me out of the habit and made me stand up straight. Just have a look across an MJ dance floor and see how many experienced dancers still dance while looking down at their feet.

Happy Dancing

[El Salsero Gringo]

I sit corrected
Still seems strange to me though - how does the follower know whether to turn or spin, if the handhold is the same for both?

Good question, although I in a dance I've never had any problems leading either move unambiguously, whatever the hand-position. I suppose if you push down and into a spin, the lady spins, if you push lightly and raise your hand along with hers she'll turn.

Personally I think most of that kind of detail that's taught under leading and signaling is just to get one into the right state of Zen for the move to flow out through ones fingers.

"I am confused, master."

"What confuses you, child?"

"How am I to distinguish between the Yo-yo push-spin and the regular Yo-yo?, when the two have the same hand-position?"

"When you are ready, come to me and I will show you".

"How am I to know when I am ready?"

"When you can already distinguish between these two moves, then you will be ready."

[David Bailey]

Good question, although I in a dance I've never had any problems leading either move unambiguously, whatever the hand-position. I suppose if you push down and into a spin, the lady spins, if you push lightly and raise your hand along with hers she'll turn.

Personally I think most of that kind of detail that's taught under leading and signaling is just to get one into the right state of Zen for the move to flow out through ones fingers.

"I am confused, master."

"What confuses you, child?"

"How am I to distinguish between the Yo-yo push-spin and the regular Yo-yo?, when the two have the same hand-position?"

"When you are ready, come to me and I will show you".

"How am I to know when I am ready?"

"When you can already distinguish between these two moves, then you will be ready."

"You will learn the Way Of Asking For A Dance, Young Wallflower" - no, sorry, can't compete with that one.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Just have a look across an MJ dance floor and see how many experienced dancers still dance while looking down at their feet.

Actually, we're all a bunch of foot-fetishists staring at the lady's feet.




(Got to get your kicks where you can.....)





.

[David Bailey]

Speaking of not developing habits that are later hard to break.

And take small steps. I remember from my taxi-ing days, that was one of the common problems for new starters, taking large steps because they got flustered - of course, large steps take more time to do, get you more off-balance, take you further from your partner, and generally exacerbate problems. Small is good.

[ChrisA]

"How am I to distinguish between the Yo-yo push-spin and the regular Yo-yo?"

Does anyone actually like the push-spin?

It's always struck me as something of an anomaly, since what often happens is more of a turn than a spin anyway, and even accurately pushing "down and away", doesn't seem to make it nice.

I like turns. I like spins, free and assisted. I don't like push spins, cos they're neither one thing or the other really.

[MartinHarper]

Our teacher and taxi dancers have emphasised stepping back on the left a lot. They must want us to do that for some reason.

Short answer: yeah, they have a reason. Stick with it, and it'll become clear soon enough.

Longer answer: We've previously discussed rules for stepping back. There are two common styles around:

1) Boy always steps back left, girl always steps back right
2) Boy steps back left before a return, and steps back right after a return. Girl opposite.

The first option suits slower music, and gives you simpler footwork. It seems to work well if your dancing is influenced by Salsa or Tango. The second option suits faster music, and gives you more options with your feet. It seems to work well if your dancing is influenced by the swing dances.

[Gadget]

Does anyone actually like the push-spin?

I like turns. I like spins, free and assisted. I don't like push spins, cos they're neither one thing or the other really.

Hmmm... now that you mention it, I can't recall any time I actually do them in freestyle, but the only "freespins" I tend to lead are the exit from the cattapult and the ladyspin/cerocspin: I like to know where my partner is through touch - I loose them if they spin off somewhere!