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Thread: Is there a victimless crime?

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    Is there a victimless crime?

    Kids taking a few sweets from a huge supermaket chain (with huge profit margins)without paying. Is Tesco/Sainsburys plc really a victim?

    Taking a couple of paperclips/pens home from work for the kids.

    Avoiding some elements of tax.

    Is there any such thing as a victimless crime?

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    Registered User baldrick's Avatar
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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by under par
    Kids taking a few sweets from a huge supermaket chain (with huge profit margins)without paying. Is Tesco/Sainsburys plc really a victim?

    Taking a couple of paperclips/pens home from work for the kids.

    Avoiding some elements of tax.

    Is there any such thing as a victimless crime?
    Victimless no. Somebody has to pay for the shortfall. But does it matter? Bet the supermarket bosses/shareholders don't go short. The local staff bonus may suffer.

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by under par
    Is there any such thing as a victimless crime?
    Sex between two 15 year olds.

    Eating chocolate while waiting for the lights to go green.

    Medicinal use of illegal drugs.

    Kissing a very tall policeman on the lips

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Sex between two 15 year olds.

    Eating chocolate while waiting for the lights to go green.

    Medicinal use of illegal drugs.

    Kissing a very tall policeman on the lips
    indeed - there are loads of victimless crimes, to add to Andys...

    cycling on the pavement

    travelling at 75 mph on an empty motorway on a sunny day

    bulding a fence 2 inches taller than its legal height

    accidently looking at the extremely dodgy spam in your mailbox

    etc..

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Watching skinny people eating chocolait magnums (especially the dark choc ones)

    Travelling 35 mph in a 30 zone on an empty road at 3am and getting flashed twice !
    Last edited by Minnie M; 10th-September-2004 at 02:11 PM.


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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    accidently looking at the extremely dodgy spam in your mailbox......


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by under par
    Is there any such thing as a victimless crime?
    A victimless crime? Yes. A victimless theft? No.

    Breaking most preventative laws can be seen as victimless - primary examples being motoring laws; speeding, not wearing a seatbelt, obscured number plate,... or things like carrying a concealed weapon, plotting to overthrow the goverment, some tresspassing laws ...

    Theft is not about how much the item stolen was/is worth; it's about takeing something without the owner's permission. The 'victim' being the owner; if they do not give permission, then the theft is a personal attack and insult {imho}.

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    some tresspassing laws ...
    Trespassing ? Whats that, some English legal concept I believe

    Theft is not about how much the item stolen was/is worth; it's about takeing something without the owner's permission. The 'victim' being the owner; if they do not give permission, then the theft is a personal attack and insult {imho}.
    True. The 'victim' doesnt have to be aware of the theft, he/she would stll be a victim of the crime - so basically ANY crime where a person is involved makes that person the victim., even if they are a 'corporate' victim.

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    Registered User baldrick's Avatar
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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    Trespassing ? Whats that, some English legal concept I believe
    Look out but there is trespass in Scotland, its what counts as damage thats different.

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by baldrick
    Look out but there is trespass in Scotland, its what counts as damage thats different.
    ok but its not the same - in England and Wales trespass is a criminal offence, in Scotland the Law of Trespass only makes it an offence if there is damage to the land or property on that land. I think most peoples definition of trespass involves purely being on private ground, which in Scotland is not illegal.


    http://www.gm0axy.ic24.net/freedom.htm

    http://www.mountaineering-scotland.o.../trespass.html

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    The 'victim' being the owner; if they do not give permission, then the theft is a personal attack and insult {imho}.
    Although the borrowing of an item without the owner's consent and then later returning it isn't considered a theft, it can still be insulting too.

    What about the borrowing and returning a read book from a bookshop, without having paid for it? Initially, the taking of the book is theft but because the person did not have the intention to permanently deprive the owner of it, it is not considered a theft.

    Kate

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    Registered User baldrick's Avatar
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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    ok but its not the same - in England and Wales trespass is a criminal offence, in Scotland the Law of Trespass only makes it an offence if there is damage to the land or property on that land. I think most peoples definition of trespass involves purely being on private ground, which in Scotland is not illegal.


    http://www.gm0axy.ic24.net/freedom.htm

    http://www.mountaineering-scotland.o.../trespass.html
    Yep I know but don't tell me I'm the only one round here being picky
    Its only trespass if you do damage down south, but just walking there is considered damage.

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    ok but its not the same - in England and Wales trespass is a criminal offence, in Scotland the Law of Trespass only makes it an offence if there is damage to the land or property on that land. I think most peoples definition of trespass involves purely being on private ground, which in Scotland is not illegal.


    http://www.gm0axy.ic24.net/freedom.htm

    http://www.mountaineering-scotland.o.../trespass.html

    TRESSPASS IN ENGLAND AND WALES IS A CIVIL OFFENCE NOT A CRIMINAL OFFENCE AND IS AN OFFENCE UNDER COMMON LAW NOT STATUTE.

    Sorry about the capital letters but I caannot be bothered changing it all.

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    Talking Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Is there a crimeless victim.....????

    Me and my wallet when out with Sal for example, no crime committed but after three or four shops, I feel used and abused.......
    Gordy
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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    There must be thousands of cases where the law would define a crime has been committed, but there is no obvious victim, and even the perpetrator is largely unaware that a crime has been committed. (Easy examples being road traffic laws, I'm not bothering with distinctions between civil and criminal offences here, because I wouldn't know them). And I don't think there is much point in going down the route that knowing perpertrators can also be the victims.

    An example of theft where you might consider there is no victim, if something is stolen and the "victim" never notices. I'm not talking about shoplifting or pilfering from work here, where essentially (however minor) the result comes out on the bottom line. For example if someone stole £1 from me, unless I saw them taking it, I would never notice. £10 - also pretty unlikely. £1000 - well I might notice (please note I'm not talking cash for this amount, it would have to be fraud or something - so don't go mugging me for my cash 'cos it will all be loose change!) So am I a victim if something has gone that I'll never be aware of, I certainly don't feel like one.

    Surely the point is that the laws are there to guard against the cases where there are victims. 35mph in town at 3am is unlikely to create any victims, 35mph outside a school at 3:30pm might lead to a child's death. As a society we set up the rules to create reasonable behaviour, and of course it is always someone else who is behaving unreasonably, never us, isn't it We don't agree with all the laws all the time, and they are constantly changing as society changes (keeps the lawyers in business! )

    greg
    Last edited by Sheepman; 10th-September-2004 at 04:26 PM.

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    I thought this was interesting...in colonial times in the US some areas were extremely religious and since crimes were sins and sins were crimes, the very concept of a "victimless crime" simply didn't exist back then. This is a concept which has been created in the 20th century as we have developed the idea of personal privacy. Any offense against the True God, even if it did not appear to affect anyone else, was automatically an offense against the community and against the principle of social order. Such threats had to be dealt with swiftly and harshly - God's punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah was ever-present in the minds of religious leaders who feared what might happen if they, too, did not work to enforce God's moral laws*. For the Puritans, guilt was corporate in nature and so the whole group would suffer if even one member transgressed. Only by a very public punishment could the group both express communal disapproval for the acts and hope to escape punishment themselves.


    *ironically Jesus, in so far as reported in the Bible, was not a particularly moral person See Here

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    I've thought about this again. There is a victim - it's the person that commits the crime. They know they've done it and are lessened by the knowlege.

    However, there is probably a victimless crime, it's the one where someone unknowingly commits a crime where no other person is the victim or even knows about the event. There is a crime comitied but nobody knows about it, not even the person that commited it - but there was still a crime comitted - wasn't there?

    Is this one of those 'if a tree falls in the forest' questions?
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 13th-September-2004 at 02:00 PM.

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I've thought about this again. ..snip...

    ....it's the one where someone unknowingly commits a crime where no other person is the victim or even knows about the event.
    Andy what sort of crime could this be then?

    Give me an example please?

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    suicide?
    It is illegal.

    Adam

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    Re: Is there a victimless crime?

    painting over a yellow line, especially double ones.


    Actually I am not convinced that technically, running over traffic wardens is a crime

    Adam

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