How many dances in a night make it 'a night'?

[drathzel]

Men choose the pretty ones first unless it's an advanced lesson when they want tto start with a partner who won't make a pigs ear of it


Daisy

(A Plain Little Flower)

I agree with you! They want the gals that make them look good! Its all about image...hrumph!

Hey shouldn't you have loads of dances miss not plain little flower?

[ChrisA]

I agree with you! They want the gals that make them look good! Its all about image...hrumph!

Ok, well I expect I'll get flamed to a crisp for this, but what the heck...

Yeah, right, like it's any different for girls

Come on guys, we're not gonna stand for all this bullsh1t are we? Like we've never noticed the way the girls flock to the good-looking guys that turn up?

Duh........

Sure, I'll 'fess up and admit that my eyes tend to be drawn to the drop-dead gorgeous ones that I've not seen before, and I might even ask them for a dance

But that superficial attractiveness lasts about 20 seconds if they're unpleasant to dance with (as, in fact, quite a few of them are), and a great dancer with a light touch and a fantastic connection is far more attractive to me within a very short time.

Now (just puttin on my flame retardant jacket)...

... staying on the bullsh1t theme for a moment, I'm not by any means convinced about this 'excess girls = big problem' thing. I've danced MJ now for about 6 years regularly, about 95% of the time at venues where, in the class at least, there's been an excess of ladies.

Out of those 6 years, I'd say my dancing has only been anywhere near half-decent for the last 2. For the first four of those years, I wasn't a terrible dancer, I didn't stink, yank or perv; I was a moderately competent intermediate just like many others, and yet I was hardly ever asked to dance.

If the 'excess girls' thing was really true, surely you'd think I'd have been in demand even then, simply because I was wearing trousers...

... but no. In point of fact, the girls weren't asking me, they were waiting to dance with the people they wanted to dance with.

Only recently, as my dancing has at last started to improve a little bit, as a direct result of a lot of hard work, do I find people asking me some of the time. I'm just as ugly as I ever was, of course, so it's not the attractiveness thing (phew )

So I still maintain, despite the maths which I don't dispute, that it's not about getting just any dance, it's about getting the ones you want. And to achieve that you have to get good enough for the people you want to dance with, to want to dance with you.

So there !!

[Cruella]

Men choose the pretty ones first unless it's an advanced lesson when they want tto start with a partner who won't make a pigs ear of it


Daisy

(A Plain Little Flower)

I agree with you Daisy. Men are so fickle. I can think of a certain well known A list dancer who seemed to avoid dancing with me for a week at beach boogie. But now i have lost 3 stone and he didn't recognize me, asked me to dance . I was very tempted to turn him down, but instead had a great dance with him then proceeded to remind him of who i was. He did look a bit taken aback but was very complimentary.
I believe quality over quantity wins every time, but i would rather dance with a man who dances simple moves well, than one who does complex moves badly!!

[Lou]

... but no. In point of fact, the girls weren't asking me, they were waiting to dance with the people they wanted to dance with.

Flame? Nah....

Just curious, really. Why weren't you asking any of these ladies who were waiting to dance? Especially considering there must've been quite a few of them where men were outnumbered....

[ChrisA]

(why can't I delete this???)

[ChrisA]

Flame? Nah....

Fab graphic !!!

Just curious, really. Why weren't you asking any of these ladies who were waiting to dance? Especially considering there must've been quite a few of them where men were outnumbered....

Well I was, of course!

Otherwise I'd never have got any dances

[jivecat]

This is definitely off-topic : I don't know how ladies can bear to stand around the dance floor waiting, hoping to get picked, like for the rounders team at school. I wouldn't have the patience in such a situation. I would storm home in a sulk and given up MJ years ago if I had to wait. The few times I have been to an MJ event where there have been excess men I have to resist the urge to leave - how adolescent

CRL

Well, no. I couldn't bear it. So I decided right from day one that I would get on that floor by hook or by crook. (Watch out for the crazy-looking LittleBoPeep) Not being young & pretty enough to be able to just sit there and watch the silly fools fall over themselves I have been fairly proactive about asking people to dance from the beginning, which was totally out of character for me. But I knew that if I just sat and watched I would have given up very quickly.

A number of times in the first year or so I did go home in a sulk - from chatting to other ladies I now realise this is normal! And I still bear a grudge against certain "gentlemen" who turned me down then because it really, seriously dented my confidence. These days, I just shrug, because I know that plenty of other people will be happy to dance with me. So, I guess the whole Ceroc experience has been character-building.

I do still play games over the issue of who-asks-who. If it's a familiar favourite I lose count of who's done the asking, and it doesn't matter anyway. And sometimes I like to be able to ask them as a way of affirming them, if that makes any sense. With other people, usually people I perceive as much better dancers than myself, I will ask them but if I get turned down, no matter what the reason given, then I will be very wary of asking them again. And if they don't ask me then I stop asking them. And sometimes I won't ask people to dance, even if I'm dying to dance with them, because I want them to ask me. In fact, I often don't really relax unless they've done the asking, as it's evidence that they must think I'm OK to dance with. Which is why it's such a pleasure if I get asked for a second dance.

I don't have a formula for a great evening, but it helps if I get one or two good dances in the first half hour, as this sets the tone of the evening. Conversely, if I get a few of those excruciating, rhythm-free, out-of-balance dances early on then the evening usually goes from bad to worse!

Hairs on the back of the neck? Two people in a bubble? Once every six months, maybe. If I'm lucky. Or perhaps I'm just hard to please. I think I like to spend at least 75% of the evening on the floor and at least 20% has to be the sort of dance that has me smiling with delight all the way through. So that means that 8 out of 10 would not make me smile. Oh dear. Must try harder.

[Little Monkey]

Yeah, right, like it's any different for girls

Come on guys, we're not gonna stand for all this bullsh1t are we? Like we've never noticed the way the girls flock to the good-looking guys that turn up?

But that superficial attractiveness lasts about 20 seconds if they're unpleasant to dance with (as, in fact, quite a few of them are), and a great dancer with a light touch and a fantastic connection is far more attractive to me within a very short time.

Out of those 6 years, I'd say my dancing has only been anywhere near half-decent for the last 2. For the first four of those years, I wasn't a terrible dancer, I didn't stink, yank or perv; I was a moderately competent intermediate just like many others, and yet I was hardly ever asked to dance.


... but no. In point of fact, the girls weren't asking me, they were waiting to dance with the people they wanted to dance with.

Only recently, as my dancing has at last started to improve a little bit, as a direct result of a lot of hard work, do I find people asking me some of the time. I'm just as ugly as I ever was, of course, so it's not the attractiveness thing (phew )

So I still maintain, despite the maths which I don't dispute, that it's not about getting just any dance, it's about getting the ones you want. And to achieve that you have to get good enough for the people you want to dance with, to want to dance with you.

So there !!

Ahem......

I NEVER ask a guy to dance just because I think he's drop-dead gorgeous... TRUE! But I do admit to waiting for the partners I really enjoy dancing with, rather than just dancing with anyone.... There are lots of reasons for why I choose to dance with certain men, and not with others. I don't enjoy dancing with men who are: Bad leads, have bad BO, are sleezy etc. If they fall into this category, I'll probably never ask them for a dance, and might even avoid them if it looks like they're about to ask me for a dance!! I don't mind dancing with beginners, and even get asked up by beginner ladies occasionally, and rarely turn anyone down.

BUT: I'd rather dance with someone who's a good lead, or who's just good fun on the dance floor! This isn't necessarily the "best" dancers, just the ones that make me enjoy myself!

I also must admit that some nights are just not very enjoyable if I have to hunt for men all the time, throw myself at them almost before they've finished their last dance, and fight off the other women who wants to dance with the same guy.... Sometimes I simply sit down, and hope someone will actually ask me up for a change..... Last night was one of those nights. The beginning of the night was super, and I got asked up by quite a few guys, and managed to hunt down a few victims myself. But the latter half of the evening was rubbish. In fact, the last half hour I didn't dance AT ALL, and was feeling a bit grumpy by the end of it all...

It did however look like the gorgeous girls were on the floor the whole night, despite maybe not exactly being (ahem, claws out, saucer of milk for table two) very competent dancers.

Oh well..... Maybe the solution is to always dress like my avatar, and then the guys might get fooled into thinking that I'm drop dead gorgeous underneath that paper bag, and ask me up????

Plain Monkey who WANTS TO DANCE! (Please? )

[Lou]

Well I was, of course!

Otherwise I'd never have got any dances

So.... how could the other spare ladies ask you, when you were dancing? Or is this an example of male logic?

Another thing that might have caused your previous situation is that no matter how many times it's said that ladies can (and should) ask a man to dance, many of us still prefer to be asked.

(Although we've learnt to adapt to survive!)

My favourite night was at one freestyle where numbers were actually quite equal, so I danced about 90% of the night. That was just perfect.

p.s. glad you liked my flamethrower....

[ChrisA]

A number of times in the first year or so I did go home in a sulk - from chatting to other ladies I now realise this is normal!

Hmm...

I do still play games over the issue of who-asks-who.....

Double hmm...

With other people, usually people I perceive as much better dancers than myself, I will ask them but if I get turned down, no matter what the reason given, then I will be very wary of asking them again.

No matter what the reason???

Triple hmmm...

And if they don't ask me then I stop asking them. And sometimes I won't ask people to dance, even if I'm dying to dance with them, because I want them to ask me.

Good grief.

All I'd say is that if this kind of thought process is any way typical of ladies, it probably accounts for more of their dissatisfaction with the number and quality of dances they get than the excess F/M ratio.

[ChrisA]

So.... how could the other spare ladies ask you, when you were dancing? Or is this an example of male logic?

Nope, the question is an example of female logic

The answer is that when I was dancing, I couldn't be asked, as you say.

But I was between dances often enough, and for long enough, to notice that I was almost never asked, and that if I wanted a dance, I'd have to find someone and ask them. Even though there were more girls than guys.

[jivecat]

Hmm...


Double hmm...


No matter what the reason???

Triple hmmm...


Good grief.

All I'd say is that if this kind of thought process is any way typical of ladies, it probably accounts for more of their dissatisfaction with the number and quality of dances they get than the excess F/M ratio.

Why are you getting at me, ChrisA? I'm only saying what I honestly think, some of which has been reiterated by other people posting on this thread. And I do a lot of asking, of people of all ability levels. But sometimes my confidence will only stretch so far.

[Lou]

But I was between dances often enough, and for long enough, to notice that I was almost never asked, and that if I wanted a dance, I'd have to find someone and ask them. Even though there were more girls than guys.

But haven't there been enough ladies replying on this thread to say that we don't necessarily like to ask a man to dance (for whatever reason)....

When numbers are more even, everyone gets more chance of a dance.

[MartinHarper]

So.... how could the other spare ladies ask you, when you were dancing? Or is this an example of male logic?

I don't recall Chris say he was always dancing. My experience was that sometimes I asked for a dance, and danced, and sometimes I didn't ask, and that almost invariably resulted in sitting out.

That said, the benefit of roughly equal numbers is that there are normally a few men and women available to be asked. They might not be wildly enthusiastic about dancing with me, and I might have to wait for the gods to be picked off before asking, but they are there.

[Lou]

I don't recall Chris say he was always dancing.

Yeah. I know.

However, he did say that sometimes he sat out - and I assumed he meant unwillingly - because he wasn't being asked to dance. In my post, i was also making the point that a lot of women prefer the man to do the asking.

And from his answers, I wonder if he was exagerating a little, as he doesn't seem to be sitting out as often as some outnumbered wallflowers are.

[ChrisA]

Why are you getting at me, ChrisA?

I'm not getting at you at all !!! Sorry if it seems that way, it isn't intended to

I'm responding to things you and others have said , and making two basic points...

1. That unless it's very large, an excess of guys or girls is not the largest contributory factor to whether or not one gets the dances one wants.

2. That playing games over who asks who, regardless of the reason, is not going to help matters.


You're very nice to dance with. You're very light, you hear stuff in the music, and follow nicely.

So my guess is that in reality, you are competing for the attention of the top 25%, maybe less, of male dancers, to get the dances that will please you most, most of the time. (I say most of the time - I'm not for a moment suggesting it's not fun to dance with beginners some of the time.)

Whether you'll get enough dances with this subset of the guys present (and who knows whether the top 25% are over-represented or under-represented at your particular venues) to give you a good night is down to other things, as well as just numbers, such as:

- confidence, as you say
- attractiveness (whatever that means, and in any case, such an advantage is extremely short-lived)
- how well you're known at a venue
- mood at the time
- music preferences

.. and probably others.

It's really just a consequence of what seems to be the overriding theme of this thread, which is that it's quality, not quantity, that makes the difference, so effort spent in improving quality will be more worthwhile than seeking venues where the numbers are relatively even.

[ChrisA]

And from his answers, I wonder if he was exagerating a little, as he doesn't seem to be sitting out as often as some outnumbered wallflowers are.

I've told you a million times, I never exaggerate

But seriously, until recently, I had to work very hard, and do 99% of the asking, to get anywhere near what felt like a good night. So I swallowed all my embarrassment, worked hard, and did lots of asking, and had lots of good nights.

Now, at long, long, last, I've made a little improvement. Nothing else has changed - I still don't have any social skills , I'm no better looking , and yet some of the time I'm asked to dance.

It can only be the dancing. Thank gawd for that, I say - it means it's down to something I have some influence over

[Barryf]

Having read most of the posts with interest, I have to admit to feeling guilty on some occasions when I have not asked a lady, who has been sitting out for some time, for a dance.

I have been very pleasantly WOW surprised on many occasions, having asked a complete stranger up to dance, and if they are fairly new to MJ, its great for the oportunity to make sure my leads are understood. And Im really glad to hear from the Ladies that a simple dance well lead is OK

As yet our venues in the North East attract only a few visitors, when they do come, It is really nice to make sure they enjoy themselves, so they want to return.

Barry_f

[Daisy Chain]

I do still play games over the issue of who-asks-who. If it's a familiar favourite I lose count of who's done the asking, and it doesn't matter anyway. And sometimes I like to be able to ask them as a way of affirming them, if that makes any sense. With other people, usually people I perceive as much better dancers than myself, I will ask them but if I get turned down, no matter what the reason given, then I will be very wary of asking them again. And if they don't ask me then I stop asking them. And sometimes I won't ask people to dance, even if I'm dying to dance with them, because I want them to ask me. In fact, I often don't really relax unless they've done the asking, as it's evidence that they must think I'm OK to dance with. Which is why it's such a pleasure if I get asked for a second dance.

.

Glad that I'm not the only one who thinks like this. I don't sit around waiting for the gorgeous ones, I'll try anyone once I've found some fabulous dark horses via this method but if they don't ask me back on a future occasion, I assume they didn't enjoy the dance as much as me. I just want to be asked occasionally even though I'm not the most attractive flower in the border...


How not to ask for a dance during the lesson:

Me to competent man: How about a dance during the freestyle later? (promising start).... I get really desperate when there are this many extra ladies

Daisy

(A Predatory Little FLower)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Speaking only for myself, naturally:

Nobody has the right to be asked to dance. While I try my hardest to 'give' while I'm dancing - by concentrating on making my partner look and feel fabulous - my experience of the dance - what I remember afterwards - depends entirely on what my partner puts into the *partnership*.

So the ladies I'm going to ask to dance are going to be the ones who, right from the moment you see them across the room, look like they are going to make the dance an enjoyable experience for me too.

That could be because they are fantastic dancers; it could be because although they have two left feet they are drop-dead gorgeous. It could be simply because they have a smile that lights up anything and anyone within twenty yards. It could be because they tell great jokes while we're dancing. It could be because they squeeze my shoulder in a flattering way. It could be any number of different things. But the one lady I go out of my way to avoid is the one who told me that she didn't need to put in any effort, after all it was a male-lead dance and therefore she could just shut her eyes while I drove her around the dance floor. I would, in all honesty, have preferred to be pulling out my own wisdom teeth for three minutes.

If as a dancer you would like to be asked to dance more I can only suggest that you need to think about what you can offer to someone to make the experience as positive for them as you would like it to be for you. People who have that attitude show it from the moment they walk in the room, and they are the ones who are never short of a partner. May I be stricken with the pox for every second I forget it myself.

I once read a book (I think in fact it was "Social Survival", by Katharine Whitehorn) where she was giving advice on how to get invited to more parties. As best as I can recall, the advice she gave was to find yourself a role. Become the person who told great jokes for instance. Can't tell jokes? Become the person who knows the gossip; Don't gossip? Be beautiful and decorative. Short fat and ugly? Find something else to distinguish yourself. And if you can't do any of those things then get known as the person who his helpful, reliable and invaluable just to have around. Arrive early. Stay late and help to clear up afterwards. Be an extra pair of hands in the kitchen. Drive home those people who've had too much to drink. Make sure that everyone has a full glass. Offer round the food. Whatever - but do it reliably and dependably. I see a big parallel in this good advice with being asked to dance.

In short - and I could have saved myself a great deal of time if I'd put it like this in the first place - stop asking why no one is troubling themselves to dance with you and give you the kind of evening you want - and start asking yourself what you can be doing to "make" the evening of every partner with whom you dance. It's the most attractive thing.