Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

[Gadget]

...I suspect it would be possible to trademark a move...I can't think of anything in MJ/Ceroc that would apply to, though.

"Ceroc Spin" ?

[David Franklin]

The point about advanced classes and that the teacher has to deal with many many people is valid and is why there has been so much discussion whether or not they should exist. We have to remember that this thread started by suggesting ALL moves should be incorporated. The manual deals with many 'high risk' moves.

In which case, surely the best option is that only 'low risk' moves be incorporated, rather than a blanket objection to the whole idea? I think most would agree that a DVD of drops requires a somewhat different approach to a DVD for general moves, and a DVD for aerials even more so. But in so far as this DVD would be useful/interesting to me, I wouldn't care if there were no drops or aerials at all!

One of my biggest concerns is safety. Arming the masses with the thought that they can do advanced moves without some proper supervision is something i would not like to see.

Given that Ceroc teaches moves like the 1st move jump in general classes (which when taught invariably leaves the following freestyle session feeling like a combat zone ), I'm not sure what you mean by "proper supervision"...

Cant remember the last time i heard a dvd give me feedback.

I'd have to agree with Gus that you don't get much in the way of feedback during a typical dance class either. (Yes, teachers will give feedback if you ask, but they'll do that for a move off a DVD as well, provided they know it!).

Dave

[El Salsero Gringo]

Oh dear.

It sounds like some people in this thread are (deliberately?) mixing two different ideas: there's a perfectly sane reason for not wanting a dance manual to exist, and there's a totally bogus reason.

The sane (but unacknowleged) reason is to protect the concept of "Teacher as knowledge-owner". The only person who's permitted unrestricted access to the information is the teacher, so you *have* to attend classes to get the moves.

In order to make this sound more reasonable however, it's necessary to dress it up in another, bogus, argument, which is to say that it wouldn't be "safe" for we the great unwashed to have access to such dangerous materials without the content being mediated for them by a "trained teacher". Frankly, if I'm dumb enough to hurt myself or my partner while dancing - or malcoordinated enough to offend any else's sensibilities by mangling moves - I'm going to do it with or without the assistance of a book, and the presence or absence of a teacher (however brilliant they think they are) won't make a hap'orth of difference.

The Established Church used the same argument in the fifteenth and sixteen centuries to try to restrict access to their holy scriptures, the Old and New Testaments. They took the matter a bit more seriously, so that anyone who advocated open access to the Bible got burnt at the stake for heresy. Ostensibly this was to protect the public's spritual welfare but what was really going on was an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to control the populace, and force them to attend church where they could be indoctrinated into whichever social and political ideas were currently popular with King or Pope (depending.)

It's about time to move on, don't you think?

[MartinHarper]

"Ceroc Spin" ?

The name contains a trademark, but the move itself isn't, AFAIK.

[Paul F]

I'd have to agree with Gus that you don't get much in the way of feedback during a typical dance class either. (Yes, teachers will give feedback if you ask, but they'll do that for a move off a DVD as well, provided they know it!).

Dave

I cant really speak for all areas but i would hope that no teacher teaches some of the high risk moves in a class environment.
I would agree though that a large number of low/medium risk moves be published. That would be useful while minimising the risk.

The comment about using safety as a bogus excuse is insulting im afraid. Some of us are very very concerned about the safety of dancers wherever they are. As i mentioned earlier im not against dvds in general as they wont reduce class numbers as ceroc is much more than just learning moves. What i am worried about are the high risk moves and people atempting these on a crowded dancefloor.

[David Franklin]

I cant really speak for all areas but i would hope that no teacher teaches some of the high risk moves in a class environment.
I would agree though that a large number of low/medium risk moves be published. That would be useful while minimising the risk.

My guess would be there are several hundred low risk moves commonly taught and maybe 20 medium-to-high risk ones. So excluding those 20 isn't going to be that much of a loss if you ask me.

I think there's a separate question about the real high risk moves (where, for clarity, I'm essentially talking aerials). A video certainly can't give you all the info (and feedback!) you need, but there's so little teaching available that most people are reverse-engineering moves together from cabaret footage; hard to see that a well thought out video could be any more dangerous. (There's still an issue of implied or moral responsiblity - I wouldn't want to be responsible for such a video, that's for sure!).

Dave

[MartinHarper]

With (say) a couple of hundred people on the average MJ night, and a couple of hours freestyle available, you're looking at a maximum of about forty seconds of personal feedback each. That time may well be gold dust, but I don't think it makes the difference between "safe" and "unsafe". After all, a DVD has more time to go over safety details, compared to a teacher, because it doesn't have to cater to the 75%+ of a class who've heard it all before.

[Gadget]

It sounds like some people in this thread are (deliberately?) mixing two different ideas: there's a perfectly sane reason for not wanting a dance manual to exist, and there's a totally bogus reason.

No, the two ideas being mixed are for having a audio-visual reference guide and a full teaching DVD. Nothing to do with wanting one to exist or not.

The first one (the guide and 'visual prompt') is relativly easy to create and produce; fixed point camera, list of moves, text over-lay of reference, calling of move. It would be much better utilised as part of a joint paper reference {Or if tech savey enough, interactive DVD with pages of text} - like some training books come with cd's in the back of them, this 'book' has a DVD in the back of it. The 'book' can highlight things to watch for on screen.

The second one is too time consuming and production intensive to be economically viable; multiple views, complete breakdown, noted points of common errors, ... all recorded, indexed and tied in with the main view.

Both methods contain roughly the same information, but the first would be the more practical application.

The sane (but unacknowleged) reason is to protect the concept of "Teacher as knowledge-owner". The only person who's permitted unrestricted access to the information is the teacher, so you *have* to attend classes to get the moves.

? most/all Ceroc classes have a little book with all the moves done in the last few weeks (or longer) noted - free to access if you ask the teacher (\sometimes taxi).
The "Bible" contains more teaching notes and a move/count breakdown of the move and suggested variants.* I can understand the reluctance of dispersing these freely - it's like a school text book with teacher's notes versus the pupil's version of the text book: The notes are designed to help the teachers impart information to the pupils, not for the pupils to use to learn better. For the teacher, the focus is the notes, for the pupil, the focus is the move and dancing it well.
(I don't think that's explained very well; does it make any sense?)

In order to make this sound more reasonable however, it's necessary to dress it up in another, bogus, argument, which is to say that it wouldn't be "safe" for we the great unwashed to have access to such dangerous materials

Not at all; the point is that some moves contain implicit dangers and if done incorrectly can result in injury. To put these on a DVD would be thoughtless without appropriate warnings and safety speil. The other point mixed up in the argument is that you can't teach social floorcraft skills very well from a DVD that people would be using on their own.

...anyone who advocated open access to the Bible got burnt at the stake for heresy. ~snip~
It's about time to move on, don't you think?

There is already "Open Access" to just about every MJ move you could name; Jiveoholic's site contains most of them. The dispute arround access to the 'bible' is not about the moves, but the teaching of their execution.

Everyone has different notes on how to do a move. Everyone has different highlighted points. Everyone moves differently and adapts differently with different partners. Creating a DVD with a whole bunch of moves would be great for a memory aid to your notes and perhaps to highlight some more things to work on. But I don't think that it would be ideal to learn from initially.

[MartinHarper]

You can't teach social floorcraft skills very well from a DVD that people would be using on their own.

Could you give an example of the sort of floorcraft teaching that is done in MJ lessons that would be difficult to do well from a DVD?

[Minnie M]

Could you give an example of the sort of floorcraft teaching that is done in MJ lessons that would be difficult to do well from a DVD?

Social Floorcraft (as quoted by Gadget ) - and I agree - there is a BIG difference

[MartinHarper]

Umm... I'm not sure I understand.

Could you give an example of the sort of Social Floorcraft teaching that is done in MJ lessons that would be difficult to do well from a DVD?

[spindr]

Umm... I'm not sure I understand.

Could you give an example of the sort of Social Floorcraft teaching that is done in MJ lessons that would be difficult to do well from a DVD?

Well, I've been to classes where the teacher would repeatedly halve the dance floor space -- to get everyone to concentrate on dancing close to other partners.

Marcus and Barbl taught an interesting workshop at the last JATW to envisage a "safety" bubble around you and your partner and using what I can only describe as an "active" attentiveness technique to aid the dancers' concentration on the environment around them -- and to try to replicate that feeling to get into a calm but perceptive "dance zone", e.g. before say dancing/competing/performing, etc.

I think both techniques might be hard to convey via a DVD.

SpinDr.

[Gadget]

Could you give an example of the sort of floorcraft teaching that is done in MJ lessons that would be difficult to do well from a DVD?

I didn't say 'teacing' from a MJ lesson, but taking part in one; the experiance of actually being on the floor, dancing socially and being aware of other dancers arround you.
If you take a DVD and dance arround the living room, you only have static chairs, tables and other ankle-traps to worry about {and perhaps some livestock } When on a dance floor, you not only need to be aware of where people are, but how they are moving... you can 'talk' about it on a DVD, but you can't teach it without actually having more than one couple present.

[Gus]

I cant really speak for all areas but i would hope that no teacher teaches some of the high risk moves in a class environment. .

As I said before ... these moves HAVE been taught at Ceroc venues (I can give you teachers and venues if you want!) There is a noticeble difference between the 'official' line and what is actualy taught. I was actualy DJing at one event when the teacher taught a 1st move jump to an audience predominantly of lower-intermediates

[El Salsero Gringo]

MODERN JIVE CLASS IN DANGEROUS MOVE SCANDAL
FIRST MOVE JUMP TAUGHT to INTERMEDIATES!
SOME EVEN BELIEVED ONLY TO BE LOWER INTERMEDIATE STANDARD!!!!
Public outraged; hospitals on full alert. Commissioner Gordon has issued the alert for Batman to attend.


Come on guys, do you have any idea how *nal this is starting to sound? Come back from planet Zarquon or wherever this thread is going. Perhaps Ceroc should run a course for advanced dancers called "Getting a grip".

[Gus]

Come on guys, do you have any idea how *nal this is starting to sound? Come back from planet Zarquon or wherever this thread is going. Perhaps Ceroc should run a course for advanced dancers called "Getting a grip".

Yo Salsero .... your statement clearly indicates why teachers are trained to teach and we dont leave it just to numpties form the floor. The first move jump involves a fair amount of physical exertion and involves ladies turning, twisting and landing. This is fine is you are fit, able to deal with your own weight coming down with force and are wearing appropriate shoes.

HOWEVER, if you have about 2 months dancing experience, wearing heels, possibly weak ankles/kness and possibly carrying a few pounds more than you would like .. then the possibilities of damaged joints, twisted ankles are significant (in fact there were a coupe of minor injuries son the night). that is not even bothering to account for the chances of landing on someone else (the lines were too close together and that aerials are severely frowned on at most clubs.

I suggest that you may want to consult with those who actually teaches aerials as to whether getting a bog-standard teacher to teach aerials in a standard class is a good idea. you could well find that your view may well be in the minority.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I gather knitting needles are no longer allowed to be sold with pointy ends either.

Look, if you'd said you disapproved of classes being taught moves that they weren't fit enough to perform, or were wearing the wrong footwear, or had weak ankles - then I'd agree with you. Only the way you put it - and reading your post, you have to agree - it sounds, shall we say, a mite condescending to those of us "lower" intermediate standard dancers who are well up to learn how to do the move.

I don't for an instant imagines that just because it's taught at a Ceroc class it absolves me for all time from the responsibility of doing the move (whatever it be) safely, and in a safe environment.

But if you insist that every class only teaches moves that can safely be done by the participants at the "Moving to Music" sessions at my late Aunt's rest home (3:30pm every Wednesday - bring your own chair and cushion) then there's not going to be much interest in attending.

[David Franklin]

Only the way you put it - and reading your post, you have to agree - it sounds, shall we say, a mite condescending to those of us "lower" intermediate standard dancers who are well up to learn how to do the move.

OK, here's my opinion. The first move jump is not a difficult aerial to do badly, but requires detailed teaching and a fair bit of practice to do well. The problem with it being taught in a standard MJ class is that the teaching tends to stop at the "do it badly" stage. (Plus everyone then tries it out in freestyle when it's too crowded ). I'm left wondering what's the point of teaching it if you're not going to try to do so properly?

Dave

[Gus]

Look, if you'd said you disapproved of classes being taught moves that they weren't fit enough to perform, or were wearing the wrong footwear, or had weak ankles - then I'd agree with you. Only the way you put it - and reading your post, you have to agree - it sounds, shall we say, a mite condescending to those of us "lower" intermediate standard dancers who are well up to learn how to do the move. .

I was actualy DJing at one event when the teacher taught a 1st move jump to an audience predominantly of lower-intermediates .

Sorry, dont understand your point. Aerials are not for people who have not been dancing long (i.e. lower-intermediates). More experienced intermediates may be able to cope but then the move should only be taught in a workshop type environment. I dont see how I was being condescending. I've been dancing a fair time but I've seen moves taught from stage that I would have to think twice about attempting.

I don't for an instant imagines that just because it's taught at a Ceroc class it absolves me for all time from the responsibility of doing the move (whatever it be) safely, and in a safe environment..

But thats the whole point ... how many people have you seen walk off the floor when a potentialy dangerous move is being taught. About a year ago I ventured to an independant club in the North West where they made a big thing about teaching advanced moves. As it came to the time for the 'BIG' move it was just an awkward drop. I looked around at the women trying to do kamikaze version of the move and decided that the best place to be wa watching the carnage from the comfort of the bar. Of course, some of the regulars took this as proof that I wasnt up to standard to do the class and commented to that effect. Takes all sorts


GETTING BACK ON THREAD ... and agreeing with Paul F (I think) ... any moves manual would clearly have to illustrate a 'danger' factor ... as in fact the Jiveaholic site does

[bigdjiver]

From experience, unccordinated beginner ladies with long nails or wearing stilleto heels can be a danger whatever move is being taught. I would guess the same goes for any unccordinated beginner male. As in most things in life it is balancing risk with reward.