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Thread: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

  1. #41
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    I think I'd agree with that. Thinking on a bit further, I believe a copyright also subsists in the collection of moves in the manual. If you simply transcribed every single move in a manual into your own format and diagrams you would have created a derivative work for which you would still need the copyright owner's permission.

    Is this discussion getting too esoteric now?
    Of course, you could produce a work that lists moves and describes how to do them without reference to this Ceroc bible we hear so much about. To say that you can't describe moves because it's already been done would be like saying you can't write a cook book that has a recepie for steak and kidney pie because somebody has already done that in an earlier book.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Of course, you could produce a work that lists moves and describes how to do them without reference to this Ceroc bible we hear so much about. To say that you can't describe moves because it's already been done would be like saying you can't write a cook book that has a recepie for steak and kidney pie because somebody has already done that in an earlier book.
    I believe that If you print the recipe for Mrs Muggles steak and kidney pie which is the same as Mrs Muggles published unique recipe, you have infringed her copyright. Some people invest considerable effort into developing new recipes for traditional dishes, a bit more of this and a bit less of that can make a considerable difference.

    The intellectual property lies in collecting the moves and giving them names, not in the moves themselves. There has been a hell of a lot of work done by the Ceroc organisation compiling their book, and it deserves protection. Only a court case would decide, and it is possible that only the lawyers would benefit from that.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    And to clear up a couple of misconceptions: moves aren't trademarks and can't be protected as such.
    Certainly trademarks are not the same as copyright. That said, I suspect it would be possible to trademark a move or move fragment, if it was essentially unique to one company, was a dominant theme in the way that company taught dance, was heavily used in marketing the company and its dance style, and so forth. I can't think of anything in MJ/Ceroc that would apply to, though.

  4. #44
    Teacher Paul F's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    I have absolutely no idea about copyright or anything like that. The only concern i have for doing this is that people will, inevitably, decide they are above their true ability.
    I cant see any replacement for a well trained and well educated teacher. By providing people with an instant hit of information will lead to intermediate and advanced classes full of people who 'know all the moves'.
    Suggesting that its just a reference book is , im afraid, a bit off the mark.
    I dont think it will affect class numbers etc but it will impact on all MJ organisers in, what i fear, will be a negative way.

    I used to wonder why there are so many dvds out there about ballroom dancing but 95% of them (if not all) were beginner dvd's.
    Its only after doing ballroom for some time that i realised what the classes would be like if someone were to create a dvd with inter/adv patterns on it. Chaos
    <my toes are hurting just thinking about it>

  5. #45
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    I used to wonder why there are so many dvds out there about ballroom dancing but 95% of them (if not all) were beginner dvd's.
    Its only after doing ballroom for some time that i realised what the classes would be like if someone were to create a dvd with inter/adv patterns on it. Chaos
    <my toes are hurting just thinking about it>
    Like it or not there are hordes of dancers out there at the moment who are learning new moves from vids of the Weekenders and the like. Many of these moves are not clearly broken down and, due to the nature of the video, they are not intedned to teach the moves, just to act as an aide memoire. This has not stopped many trying to learn these moves from scratch.

    AFAIK there are only 2 MJ videos that teach at an inetermediate+ level ... Amir's Jango and Jump'n'Jive's 'Advanced Jive' Given that the genie has been out of the bottle for a long time, surely there is a place for well structured 'teaching' notes. The herberts that think that they can still just teach themselves and dont need a teacher will carry on anyway ... but at least this way they make have a chance of getting the moves approximately correct.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Like it or not there are hordes of dancers out there at the moment who are learning new moves from vids of the Weekenders and the like. Many of these moves are not clearly broken down and, due to the nature of the video, they are not intedned to teach the moves, just to act as an aide memoire. This has not stopped many trying to learn these moves from scratch.
    .
    Definately agree.
    My only concern is that releasing an 'educational dvd' (as opposed to a weekender) containig hundreds of moves might cause many saw limbs

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    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    Definately agree.
    My only concern is that releasing an 'educational dvd' (as opposed to a weekender) containig hundreds of moves might cause many saw limbs
    I know where you're coming from, but I don't think it would go so far as to require amputations...

    Dave

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    The whole history of dance involves people watching other people and trying to imitate, improve upon and personalise what they see. It also involves people trying to pass on what they know. Obviously teaching comes best from expert teachers, but books, films, videos and watching live performances and tips from friends and just playing with the dance and making mistakes are all learning routes too, provided unacceptable risks are not taken.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    The whole history of dance involves people watching other people and trying to imitate, improve upon and personalise what they see. It also involves people trying to pass on what they know. Obviously teaching comes best from expert teachers, but books, films, videos and watching live performances and tips from friends and just playing with the dance and making mistakes are all learning routes too, provided unacceptable risks are not taken.
    I see where you're coming from but I think its the responsibility of those who pass on information (teachers, dvd actors etc)to minimise and control the risk as much as possible. By publishing a dvd such as the one proposed here with such a vast amount of moves which will have to span multiple abilities is, IMO, just going to accelarate the risk to an unsafe level.

    You have to try and convince people to walk before they can run. Some will undoubtedly try and hit the ground (no pun intended ) running but we must try and minimise this for the safety of others.

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    Registered User jiveoholic's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    I see where you're coming from but I think its the responsibility of those who pass on information (teachers, dvd actors etc)to minimise and control the risk as much as possible. By publishing a dvd such as the one proposed here with such a vast amount of moves which will have to span multiple abilities is, IMO, just going to accelarate the risk to an unsafe level.

    You have to try and convince people to walk before they can run. Some will undoubtedly try and hit the ground (no pun intended ) running but we must try and minimise this for the safety of others.
    Hmmm..the genie is out, me thinks. Are there no books on judo, because it might be dangerous? How about skiing? Rifle shooting? Perhaps it is better to have legitimate books from those who understand the dangers than a black market info exchange from those who do not?

    I agree with your concern about the danger, but once the genie is out, what is the best policy then?

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    I think its the responsibility of those who pass on information (teachers, dvd actors etc)to minimise and control the risk as much as possible.
    You could always preface the book with the standard safety information given out in a typical MJ class (Ceroc or independent). That would take all of one sentence.

  12. #52
    Registered User jiveoholic's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by alex
    You could always preface the book with the standard safety information given out in a typical MJ class (Ceroc or independent). That would take all of one sentence.
    I make sure that print-outs of moves have safety advice appropriate for the move at the head - like having different speed limits rather than the usual 5mph you get when they have resurfaced a road!

  13. #53
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by jiveoholic
    Hmmm..the genie is out, me thinks. Are there no books on judo, because it might be dangerous? How about skiing? Rifle shooting? Perhaps it is better to have legitimate books from those who understand the dangers than a black market info exchange from those who do not?

    I agree with your concern about the danger, but once the genie is out, what is the best policy then?
    I would consider the risks and dangers between differing activities to warrant their individual considerations - unless you want to practice shooting on another paying member of the public

    Im really only questioning the idea of a dvd. Im not saying that some people wont benefit from it but i just think it will create a new wave of self-taught 'advanced' dancers.

    I see the jiveoholic website to be different than a dvd. Im imagining that people will be more willing , whether rightly or wrongly, to grab their partner and work through the challenging moves when they are on dvd rather than written down/on the www (not in video form).

    It all comes down to the fact that people will believe they can do all of these moves. They may well be able to with the partner they practice with. Thats dangerous IMO.

    I have used many dvds before but only for basic elements of each dance style. I wouldnt consider practising advanced moves at home then trying it out on the general public no matter how good the instructor on the dvd was. If people wanted to practice at home then find a suitable environment with a teacher perhaps then great but unfortunately thats not always going to happen.

    I understand what you mean when you say the genie is out of the bag. What i propose is minimizing the danger element by reducing temptation.
    Unfortunately i think it will happen eventually but i would just prefer it not too.

  14. #54
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    I wouldnt consider practising advanced moves at home then trying it out on the general public no matter how good the instructor on the dvd was.
    Um - why not? Some moves might be problematic (and I would expect a teacher like yourself to be able to work out which they were), but I'd expect a lot to be usable. Unless, of course, you're equating 'advanced' with drops and aerials... (I'm never really sure what an 'advanced' move is, anyhow...)

    Dave

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    DVD: Pause. Rewind. Slow motion. Maybe even zoom.
    Teacher: Barely visible. Can't tell if they have feet, let alone what footwork they're using.

    DVD: I can take it at my own pace. I can go over the move as many times as I like.
    Teacher:They will go at the speed best suited to the average ability of the hundred or so people in the class. If I manage to catch them after a lesson, they might go over it one more time in about five minutes.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    DVD: Pause. Rewind. Slow motion. Maybe even zoom.
    Teacher: Barely visible. Can't tell if they have feet, let alone what footwork they're using.

    DVD: I can take it at my own pace. I can go over the move as many times as I like.
    Teacher:They will go at the speed best suited to the average ability of the hundred or so people in the class. If I manage to catch them after a lesson, they might go over it one more time in about five minutes.
    and can have the move from different angles, and have close-ups, and could have the move demonstrated by different couples with different physiques. The potential is there to do the job very well. I doubt it will happen like that. I would love to have a crack at at doing it, although I am sure there are hundreds more qualified. Dream on ...

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Everyone has a different way of learning. For me, there is no subsititute for the classes, also great fun, but it would definitely be a help to have a reference dvd to recap on the latest moves learned. My ceroc grey cells do not seem to be fully active yet !!!

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Im sure most of us on here will benefit from it to some degree but the point i am trying to make is that it wont just be the seasoned dancers who will try the advanced moves.

    Some people genuinely struggle with dancing in general. The problem is they will still try the advanced moves if presented to them in one big serving. They will not go for feedback to a teacher and will take these straight onto the social dancefloor.

    The point about advanced classes and that the teacher has to deal with many many people is valid and is why there has been so much discussion whether or not they should exist. We have to remember that this thread started by suggesting ALL moves should be incorporated. The manual deals with many 'high risk' moves.

    One of my biggest concerns is safety. Arming the masses with the thought that they can do advanced moves without some proper supervision is something i would not like to see. Cant remember the last time i heard a dvd give me feedback.

    A reference compedium is great but we have to consider the downside too

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    One of my biggest concerns is safety. Arming the masses with the thought that they can do advanced moves without some proper supervision is something i would not like to see..
    Aye .... and given the number of Ceroc (and some Blitz) teachers I've seen teaching backbreakers, 1st move move jumps and various major drops from stage I'd like to see some 'proper supervision' in classes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul F
    Cant remember the last time i heard a dvd give me feedback.
    Cant remember the last time I saw a MJ teacher giving much in the way of feedback

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ...Cant remember the last time I saw a MJ teacher giving much in the way of feedback
    You are not looking hard enough then Gus, or are looking in the wrong places.
    (or dancing in the wrong places ? )

    Up here in Scotland, every Ceroc teacher I have approached:- Scot, Franck, James, Obi, Alison, Mairi, and Kathy, (as well as Adam Nathanson on his home turf); has given me great feedback. Similarly Chalky Whyte of the Edinburgh Le RoC scene.

    I have been given constructive comments to improve my lead, style, or ability to complete moves.

    Contrary to what you seem to imply, The teachers that I mention above, will give me extra guidance on moves from that class. What they will also do is gladly help me with moves I am trying to do that were taught somewhere else, by a different teacher.

    When I approach these teachers I also find it very impressive that they will also commandeer a demo, or another dancer to go over what we are talking about.

    Great teaching during the classes, friendly and helpful teachers that offer advice when approached.

    I don't think one can ask for much more.

    johnthehappyguy
    Last edited by johnthehappyguy; 30th-January-2005 at 10:20 PM. Reason: Improving clarity

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