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Thread: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

  1. #21
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Isn't this all pandering to the "moves monster" that all the recent improvers workshops were trying to eliminate?
    What happened to the "It's not about the moves, but how you execute them" attitude?

    As for manuals and lists of 'moves', I think that it would be better for people to work with what they have and learn how the basics can be ammended, disected and re-assembled.
    I could come up with ten variations on any beginner move following ten simple methods of changing a move; from swapping hands, to changing who moves, to reversing,...Learning this compared to learning a "double pretzel back-hander teapot swizzle with dip", etc. is far more constructive IMHO.

    If a definitive 'list' is published, are there not pitfalls of people getting trapped into thinking that the moves must be performed as per the book? Limiting creatvity and musical interpritation within the dance?

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    For those of you who dont read subtitles I'm a bit hacked off that anyone still believes that ceroc own the dance or even created it
    Besides, who'd want to spend a night in a smoky atmosphere* bouncing their hand up and down to every beat?

    .. CIRCLE TO THE LEFT AND STEP BACK!

    Have they banned smoking in Ceroc venues yet?

    *applies in many Ceroc venues outside Scotland.

  3. #23
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Isn't this all pandering to the "moves monster" that all the recent improvers workshops were trying to eliminate?
    What happened to the "It's not about the moves, but how you execute them" attitude?
    Nothing has changed for that target market ... which is at best 10% of the total number of dancers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I could come up with ten variations on any beginner move following ten simple methods of changing a move; from swapping hands, to changing who moves, to reversing,...Learning this compared to learning a "double pretzel back-hander teapot swizzle with dip", etc. is far more constructive IMHO.
    And this is relevant how? The aim of the DVD is a reference source to act as an aide memoire. I'm supposed to know over 500 moves ... I've been trained to teach them, got the notes ... but its a major pain trying to remeber them without any video source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    If a definitive 'list' is published, are there not pitfalls of people getting trapped into thinking that the moves must be performed as per the book? Limiting creatvity and musical interpritation within the dance?
    No no no. It helps most dancers to see the way the basic move is done ... THEN they can add to and develop it. Not all dancers are gifted or want to do major develoment on a move. I for one would love to be able to remember more than 30 moves

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Nothing has changed for that target market ... which is at best 10% of the total number of dancers.
    Shouldn't we be trying to increase this market rather than reduce it? As has beeen pointed out, there are several beginners & move references and guides out there; to make yours easier to find, cheaper, of a better quality or otherwise more 'consumer worthy' than theirs would involve a lot of marketing. However if you looked into a neich market like the improvers, then there are very few resources available.

    And this is relevant how? The aim of the DVD is a reference source to act as an aide memoire. I'm supposed to know over 500 moves ... I've been trained to teach them, got the notes ... but its a major pain trying to remeber them without any video source.
    If it's a form of 'flash-card', then yes; a good idea, but not necissary to go into too mutch detail and you could have thousands of moves on there. If you want it as a teaching/learning resource, then you would want multiple camera angles, detailed notes, highlighted areas, and a couple of options on the same move. With this amount of detail, I would say lots more work and only about 20-50 could be done per disk. And it would be expensive.

    No no no. It helps most dancers to see the way the basic move is done ... THEN they can add to and develop it. Not all dancers are gifted or want to do major develoment on a move. I for one would love to be able to remember more than 30 moves
    Teaching does this, an aide memoire does not. Remembering more than 30 moves? I can almost remember the names of the basic moves {almost...} I can remember 'key words' like "teapot", and sometimes even the movement that goes with it! However I remember about two moves. And that's after a class!!. I don't dance only two moves throught a night.
    That's my point - moves and names of moves do not do anything appart from encourage people to slip into unthinking repetition. It's like sitting exams - you can pass an exam by regurgitating text books. However passing exams and knowing about the subject are two seperate entities. Don't you want to see dancers dancing on their own without spitting out text book passages?

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ... I for one would love to be able to remember more than 30 moves
    I can, but only on the way home ...

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Interesting discussion. I have spent all my professional life in the media - all types - and have directed videos and written books (on nothing to do with MJ!) and I know something about marketing.

    A book (e-book or paper) or a video, or a DVD, would be a labour of love (is a labour of love in the case of the fairly comprehensive but not user friendly e-book mentioned above). There is nothing wrong with labours of love, but there is no money in them. There would definitely be no money in a partwork on MJ, or partner dance, or dance - this would bleed money and could only ever be a hobby for a rich person to throw their cash at.

    I like the animations on jiveaholics, and one of the other smaller MJ teaching orgs has video clips on the web.

    Uploading DVD clips onto a website would seem to be a better way to go. But it would still be a labour of love!

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    For those of you who dont read subtitles I'm a bit hacked off that anyone still believes that ceroc own the dance or even created it
    I think you have to give Ceroc a fair amount of credit for creating the dance surely? They certainly didn't invent jive, but they were the first to strip out set footwork and create the new adaptation that is now known as ceroc or modern jive. Of course it is constantly evolving and I think that anyone who does the dance can take some credit for that.

    As for owning a dance, I would have thought that you can own a choreography, but not a dance form. N'est pas?

  8. #28
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Will
    As for owning a dance, I would have thought that you can own a choreography, but not a dance form. N'est pas?
    Mais non

  9. #29
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherX
    Interesting discussion. I have spent all my professional life in the media - all types - and have directed videos and written books (on nothing to do with MJ!) and I know something about marketing.
    Great!

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherX
    A book (e-book or paper) or a video, or a DVD, would be a labour of love (is a labour of love in the case of the fairly comprehensive but not user friendly e-book mentioned above).
    Hmmm, sorry you didn't find it friendly -- comments to improve it always greatly appreciated

    One problem is that to keep a PDF down to a reasonable downloadable size for dialup you can't include hundreds of pictures, which is a shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherX
    There is nothing wrong with labours of love, but there is no money in them.
    True.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherX
    There would definitely be no money in a partwork on MJ, or partner dance, or dance - this would bleed money and could only ever be a hobby for a rich person to throw their cash at.
    Well, there is the communal approach, see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherX
    I like the animations on jiveaholics, and one of the other smaller MJ teaching orgs has video clips on the web.

    Uploading DVD clips onto a website would seem to be a better way to go. But it would still be a labour of love!
    I have wondered in the past whether there might be some mileage in distributing promotional CD's at events -- rather than leaflets. If an organisation wanted to include it's details, then they could either help to part sponsor production, or perhaps donate some content.

    And of course, there's nothing to stop everyone simply "chipping-in" their favourite move, either as a description or a video, etc. Anyone that contributes gets a licence to reuse the content as they see fit. If there were to be enough support, I'm sure that a suitable venue / number of cameras could be located :-)

    SpinDr.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Didn't mean to impugn the book! It's a tour de force, but e-books are inherently user-unfriendly to my mind. I thought you could do with a good editor, but then, most writers of anything need a good editor!

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherX
    Didn't mean to impugn the book!
    Didn't think you did

    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherX
    It's a tour de force, but e-books are inherently user-unfriendly to my mind. I thought you could do with a good editor, but then, most writers of anything need a good editor!
    Agree it definitely needs editing.

    SpinDr.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr
    Well, I have two "books" related to Modern Jive (there may be others): these are:

    • The Dance Manual. Andy Galloway. Lyndenhurst Ltd, 38 Ashley Road, London, N19 3AF, 1988.
    • Learn To Dance Modern Jive. Robert Austin and Claire Hilliard. Sigma Leisure, Sigma Press, 1 South Oak Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 6AR, 1998. ISBN 1850586020.

    The first is a soft-cover A4 style 48 page pamphlet (incidentally published before the Ceroc trademark was awarded - as far as I can tell), the second a professional book.

    As to an online version -- check out the PDF download at AfterFive, see http://www.afterfive.co.uk/downloads.html (at the moment it's about 300+ pages, with 150 moves). You can download the source for this and edit/publish/sell it yourself (as long as you make it available under the same terms and conditions), or if that's too complicated ask me nicely

    If you have comments, then you can add them on-line at http://www.afterfive.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php.

    SpinDr.

    Well, I have two "books" related to Modern Jive (there may be others):

    indeed there is my book I wrote a few years ago : The unofficial Ceroc Reflections and Observations Book. I still have copies...

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    [QUOTE=Gus]You CANT own a dance moves (Ceroc tried and failed with that already).QUOTE]

    Can someone tell me more about when and how Ceroc tried and failed to copyright the moves.

    I heard rumours that James Cronin watched people and wrote down their moves. So I guess in moral terms any purported ownership of a move would be questionable. But could you copyright the move if you tagged it to a specific name like" Move 1233"?

    However I assume that with a more complex piece of work, ownership could be established more easily like a showcase?

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    I think that if a move is truley unique (<-doubtfull), then it could be copyrighted/trademarked. However you would have to prove it:
    A move is a construct of movements, like a word is made up of letters - these words/moves are a common language that all MJ holds. They are the adjectives; the descriptors used by dancers in their translation of music.
    A new word/move could be created, then through common useage introduced into the dictionary - if that move was 'branded', then it would be like using the term Coke to discribe any cola: companies would have to name it something slightly different (or change it) unless they either wanted to promote their rival or risk getting fined/sued/slapped...

    In the same way, sentances of moves (micro routines) are hard to tag as unique, but lyrics, poetry and short storys (which may contain some common dance phrases and sentaces) are relativly easy to identify.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    As far as I am aware, the copyright thing works like this:

    Copyright can exist in the artistic expression of an idea only. A move is not the expression of an idea, as far as I can see - it's the idea itself.

    If you took the Ceroc teaching scripts, written descriptions of moves, or diagrams, then you would be breaching a copyright and could find yourself the subject of a claim for damages.

    As far as the moves themselves go however - I think they're anybody's.

    If anyone knows of any case law in this specific area, please post.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo
    As far as the moves themselves go however - I think they're anybody's.
    The interesting point is that it seems a number of Ceroc Manuals have fallen into 'enemy' hands. If one was to be offered on eBay how much would you offer for it ... and could Ceroc stop the auction from taking place? I must admit that though I could do with a copy myself, I'm not sure that it would be ethical to copy that work and distribute it, legal rights or no.
    Last edited by Gus; 28th-January-2005 at 07:59 PM.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I think that if a move is truley unique (<-doubtfull), then it could be copyrighted/trademarked.
    This is, of course, complete speculation. Consider enforcement of this supposed right of ownership of a move. Do some kind of move police burst onto the dance floor and take you away in handcuffs because you did a Ceroc move at a non-Ceroc venue?

    You might as well say you've found a new and interesting way to stand at bus stops - but you have to pay a licence fee before you can stand that particular way

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Gus,

    Ethical or not, it would be unlawful to copy the manual (other than restricted portions for the purposes of academic research, parody or other 'fair use' exemptions) unless you had the permission of the copyright owner. If you were to copy it then the copyright owner could pursue you for damages and for an injuction to prevent you doing it again. If you gave the copy away - and it's not (as in this case) a publication that's available for purchase by the public - then it's difficult to see what damage Ceroc could allege you had done them by distributing such a copy.

    As to your other question - about the right of anyone to stop you from buying such a manual on Ebay - it depends on the circumstances under which the person who 'holds' the manual came by it. If it was stolen - by them or anyone else - then they have no title to it and consequently are not entitled to sell it. If you bought it under those circumstances then you would have no title to it either and could be forced to return it. Your remedy to recover the price you falsely paid would be with the erstwhile vendor, not with Ceroc. Furthermore, if you knew or should have reasonably known that it was stolen then you would be committing a criminal offence by purchasing it.

    If, however, the person selling the manual has title to it (say it was given to them by Ceroc, without it being made clear that it was on loan or had to be returned) then there's nothing in law Ceroc can do to stop it being sold to you.

    By the way, if anyone qualified in law wants to jump in and correct me here on any of these points, please go ahead.

    Further: all this legal theorising is all very well, but none of it matters two hoots unless and until you come up in court. You'd have to judge the likelihood of Ceroc going that far, whether you'd have the resources and will to defend the action, and what the likely outcome would be.

    And to clear up a couple of misconceptions: moves aren't trademarks and can't be protected as such. Nor can they be patented.

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    Registered User jiveoholic's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    It seems to me that two things are getting confused: the move and the representation of a move. It appears that moves are unlikely to be copyrightable, but the representations certainly are. Copying the ceroc book is wrong, as is copying my "stickmen"!

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    I think I'd agree with that. Thinking on a bit further, I believe a copyright also subsists in the collection of moves in the manual. If you simply transcribed every single move in a manual into your own format and diagrams you would have created a derivative work for which you would still need the copyright owner's permission.

    Is this discussion getting too esoteric now?

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