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Thread: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    In a vain attempt to get the Forum talking about dance rather than arguments
    {ODA Mode ON}
    Its about time that the 'standard' 500 moves were put in a book and made generally available. I KNOW that there are a couple of dance databases, BUT if a manual was widely available that covered the core 90% moves, it would give beginners and intermediates something to do on the (few) long dark nights when they aren't dnancing and it would weaken Ceroc's (tm) grip on the MJ dance scene. Thoughts?

    {ODA Mode OFF}

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    In a vain attempt to get the Forum talking about dance rather than arguments
    {ODA Mode ON}
    Its about time that the 'standard' 500 moves were put in a book and made generally available. I KNOW that there are a couple of dance databases, BUT if a manual was widely available that covered the core 90% moves, it would give beginners and intermediates something to do on the (few) long dark nights when they aren't dnancing and it would weaken Ceroc's (tm) grip on the MJ dance scene. Thoughts?

    {ODA Mode OFF}
    Sounds like a big job ................

    but who knows might even be a money spinner eventually, what with t shirts, dvds, film rights in Hollywood and paperwights to go with the book and a new "tm trademark"

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    In a vain attempt to get the Forum talking about dance rather than arguments
    You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you...etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Its about time that the 'standard' 500 moves were put in a book and made generally available. I KNOW that there are a couple of dance databases, BUT if a manual was widely available that covered the core 90% moves, it would give beginners and intermediates something to do on the (few) long dark nights when they aren't dnancing and it would weaken Ceroc's (tm) grip on the MJ dance scene. Thoughts?
    I'd agree totally, its a great idea, but Ceroc are certainly unlikely to produce something that can be used as an excuse to skip classes (or steal moves on a bigger scale). Not that a book is in any way the same as quality teaching of course. Assuming that is a reason that Ceroc have never done this before - I think would be doing themselves a big disservice to think this way, dancing is about a lot more than just learning moves by rote. You can guarantee at Ceroc you get a decent, predictable quality learning experience.

    Maybe someone else will produce a book though. A smurf book of dance moves anyone ? I specialise in the paniced 'what the hell am i going to do next move'

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    [i]and it would weaken Ceroc's (tm) grip on the MJ dance scene. Thoughts?

    {ODA Mode OFF}
    This assumes that we need something to weaken Ceroc's grip on the MJ scene

    IMHO there's a great opportunity to produce a part-work magazine that builds up week by week into this fab book. Any suggestions for the free gift with the first issue?

    p.s. Great idea Gus

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    IMHO there's a great opportunity to produce a part-work magazine that builds up week by week into this fab book. Any suggestions for the free gift with the first issue?


    Or.... CerocTM For Dummies, perhaps?

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    Registered User Zebra Woman's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    I would have thought a DVD (or several) would be a better way of depicting /teaching moves. I find those written down move descriptions quite perplexing.


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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    This assumes that we need something to weaken Ceroc's grip on the MJ scene

    IMHO there's a great opportunity to produce a part-work magazine that builds up week by week into this fab book. Any suggestions for the free gift with the first issue?

    p.s. Great idea Gus
    Yup, a free birth certificate validating the holder as being under 30..........

    Elaine

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Lets put it this way, Jiveaholics has most of the moves in a basic format. There are plenty of ex-CTA teachers who have copies of the Ceroc manual (not me unfortunately) but MoJive and Blitz instructors will all have their own version of the Bible. Are you telling me that no one has thought of just slamming about 300/500 moves down on DVD and attaching the notes. How much wouldJo Public pay.

    Thinking about it ... reckon I could put 100 moves down on video in 1 day. Anyonone want to quote for how much Jo public would pay for that Anyone want to make me an offer?

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    Registered User Clive Long's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Lets put it this way, Jiveaholics has most of the moves in a basic format. There are plenty of ex-CTA teachers who have copies of the Ceroc manual (not me unfortunately) but MoJive and Blitz instructors will all have their own version of the Bible. Are you telling me that no one has thought of just slamming about 300/500 moves down on DVD and attaching the notes. How much wouldJo Public pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra Woman
    I would have thought a DVD (or several) would be a better way of depicting /teaching moves. I find those written down move descriptions quite perplexing.


    Thinking about it ... reckon I could put 100 moves down on video in 1 day. Anyonone want to quote for how much Jo public would pay for that Anyone want to make me an offer?
    One guideline for such a DVD is the Camber DVDs sell for £25. I have both for the times I have been there.

    Camber DVDs are an invaluable reference for me.

    The "Ceroc(TM) Basics" videos (or whatever they are called) go for £15 and contain about 16 (??) moves.

    A good index on the DVD would be invaluable to search the planned hundreds of moves. Speculating idly I'd like to be able to see "shots" from different angles (e.g. looking down on heads (not mine) ) to show the positioning of feet and bodies.

    I would guess you think you could film a lot in a day but don't underestimate the post-production work to produce the finished "film" Maybe track down the guy who does the Camber DVD to discuss.

    Clive
    Last edited by Clive Long; 26th-January-2005 at 05:22 PM.

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    Maybe someone else will produce a book though.....
    or a monthly mag with moves / tips and discounts to lessons etc. I can see it now :-

    Issue 1 - special price of £2.99 comes with one Black and White Right shoe size 8

    Issue 2 - B & W left shoe
    and so on.............

    (shoes idea is an example only)


    --ooOoo--
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    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    When I realised that my notes of the lessons that I had attended were really perplexing when read 3 months later I started putting them onto a camcorder tape just after the lesson. This was rough and ready but a great aid to memory. Invaluable way to stop yourself relying on a small number of moves that work with everybody and thereby finding that you are even boring yourself.

    I agree with Zebra Woman here. A visual referance source (DVDs or whatever) would be great. DVDs and a book would be a fantastic combination. Make the book in computer readable format and well heeled dancers will be taking laptops to venues with them.

    I once turned my card index system of dance moves into a video tape just so that I could have something to jog my menory. Worked really well. I have just bought a portable DVD player so that I could do the same thing with the DVDs from weekenders.

    This is a project that is just aching to be done. I think it will be a great aid to memory but will never replace good quality teaching.

    It would really be useful to the teachers if a student could come and say "could I have your help with move No 378" instead of "I am having a bit of trouble with that baskety twirly block thing that you taught two or three months ago".

    How much would I pay? Very difficult question. At a very good price I would buy my own copy. At a very high price I would imagine that the DVD burners and photocopiers of the country would get a workout.

    My gut feel is that about £80-90 for the whole lot wouldn't have people running for the hills.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Chef
    I agree with Zebra Woman here. A visual referance source (DVDs or whatever) would be great. DVDs and a book would be a fantastic combination. Make the book in computer readable format and well heeled dancers will be taking laptops to venues with them.

    How much would I pay? Very difficult question. At a very good price I would buy my own copy. At a very high price I would imagine that the DVD burners and photocopiers of the country would get a workout.
    Wel ... I agree. Just made a few calls and started the ball rolling. who knows ... could have volume one out by summer ... or maybe not. Who wants to be the big boys wont be too keen!

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    The www.jiveoholics.org.uk website provides a good description, and some animation for lots of different moves.

    It is very good value - especially when all of the proceeds go to charity.

    The site is well worth a visit, with much useful stuff available on it for free.



    johnthehappyguy

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Anyone want to make me an offer?
    Tuppence Hapenny!

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    The codification of Le Roc as a UKA approved dance style was a problematic experience for those involved as modern jive ceased to be a street dance with local variants and evolution, and became Le Roc the fixed syllabus studio dance, steps as described in the official literature. This would happen if 500 or so moves were codified on video for local or national promulgation. Who is going to take editorial responsibility for selecting the content and checking the validity of each snippet.

    The only person with the practical production experience is Christine Keeble.

    The problem with price and value and cost will not have a perfect solution. But if the cost is perceived as high then a DVD only takes 10 minutes to pirate, My local computer fair has 1-1 and 1-7 cd and dvd copiers on sale. Has anyone a copy of Andy Galloway's book ca 1988

    Note also that all the participants in the How To Jive video were banned from ceroc for contravening their membership terms. Why do you think Nikki Haslam is in Australia.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    A comphrehensive DVD of Ceroc moves may contravene copyright. I would suggest that anyone planning this ask Mike Ellard first.

    Another difficulty is that there is a constant state of evolution going on. Moves are changed, dropped, introduced.

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    Registered User jiveoholic's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    A comphrehensive DVD of Ceroc moves may contravene copyright. I would suggest that anyone planning this ask Mike Ellard first.
    A sensiblewarning...however, the title of this thread is about "modern Jive" moves....who brought Ceroc into it?

    Modern Jive is to Ceroc like a vacuum cleaner is to a Hoover!

    Copyright is a complex thing, but it is practically impossible to copyright moves themselves as the rules say that you can only do this if you add something NEW and so many of them are common to other dances, particularly Swing, but with different timing. Now the naming may be a different problem....I avoid using others' naming conventions unless it is widely accepted.

    I have considered presenting the Jiveoholics Anonymous database as a nice "Christmas edition" book (nothing like a nice book to cuddle in bed!), but I would have to ensure it was correct and finished. Already someone changed the yoyo when I was not looking! Feels like far too much work and it is so specialist and would probably cost over £20 so return would be somewhat less than Harry Potter!

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    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Well, I have two "books" related to Modern Jive (there may be others): these are:

    • The Dance Manual. Andy Galloway. Lyndenhurst Ltd, 38 Ashley Road, London, N19 3AF, 1988.
    • Learn To Dance Modern Jive. Robert Austin and Claire Hilliard. Sigma Leisure, Sigma Press, 1 South Oak Lane, Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 6AR, 1998. ISBN 1850586020.

    The first is a soft-cover A4 style 48 page pamphlet (incidentally published before the Ceroc trademark was awarded - as far as I can tell), the second a professional book.

    As to an online version -- check out the PDF download at AfterFive, see http://www.afterfive.co.uk/downloads.html (at the moment it's about 300+ pages, with 150 moves). You can download the source for this and edit/publish/sell it yourself (as long as you make it available under the same terms and conditions), or if that's too complicated ask me nicely

    If you have comments, then you can add them on-line at http://www.afterfive.co.uk/dokuwiki/doku.php.

    SpinDr.

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    A comphrehensive DVD of Ceroc moves may contravene copyright. I would suggest that anyone planning this ask Mike Ellard first.
    Just call them Modern Jive moves and you don't contravene Ceroc's Trademark. And you can't copyright a body position or a transition between body positions - although you can copyright a written descripion of those moves. The answer is simple, use a different written description. Although it might be difficult to use a different description of the Ceroc moves when Ceroc don't let people outside the CTA see their manual. I suppose your defence lawyer could claim coincidence if your written descripion was similar to a private, in-house, document

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    Re: Creation of a Modern Jive Reference Book

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    A comphrehensive DVD of Ceroc moves may contravene copyright. I would suggest that anyone planning this ask Mike Ellard first.
    SORRY who died and make Ceroc God over all Dance and its minions Have you any ideas where many of 'Ceroc' moves came from?? ... they were taken left right and centre. You CANT own a dance moves (Ceroc tried and failed with that already). Lets look at facts ... we are trying to open up dance moves to more dancers ... moves which are already in the public domain. Who says Ceroc(tm) has all the moves ... don’t you think its conceivable that Blitz, LeRoc, MoJive have moves in their syllabus that Ceroc(tm) don’t have?

    Anyone else in a parallel dimension that thinks I have to get Ceroc permission to produce a Modern Jive DVD???

    For those of you who dont read subtitles I'm a bit hacked off that anyone still believes that ceroc own the dance or even created it

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