View Poll Results: What do you think of the idea of a Modern Jive Dancers Association?

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  • I think this is a fab idea for all dancers.

    18 54.55%
  • I think this is a fab idea for dance competitors

    9 27.27%
  • I don't care either way.

    3 9.09%
  • I think this is a silly idea - but I think Divissima is lovely.

    3 9.09%
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Thread: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

  1. #61
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Is it only about competitions? Would you want to see unified competition criteria? Every competition the same? Would you want to score people to judge their ability? Would you want everyone to do things exactly the same way so that judges can see exactly who is better than who?
    Yes

    .. although I think the last question isn't quite right. If everyone did everything exactly the same way they'd all get the same score.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Please someone tell me the advantages of an MJDA again?
    I think Gadget has answered his own question.

  2. #62
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Any my need for the MJDA is ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    My own opinion is that the MJDA would be mostly of benefit to competitors by offering the following;

    Standardised competition entry criteria.
    Standardised competition rules.
    Standardised competition judging methods.
    I would rather see an official "template" than an enforced standard; I think it's nice to have some differences between the different competitions. (Alternatively the rules could explicitly leave some things to organisers discretion).

    And, because of all of the above we could have a national ranking scheme. And once we've got a ranking scheme we can divide categories by ability. For example, you couldn't be an intermediate (although I'd love to see this title disappear) dancer if you were in the top 100 or 200 or whatever.
    Am I the only person who doesn't see this working? I just don't think we have enough competitions for a ranking system to work - the comparable system in the States manages, but they have about 2 competitions a month. With just 4 competitions a year I don't see how you can rank down to the 200th place. Only way I can see is to allow a lot of ties, so you might have 103-197 being all the people who have got through at least 2 rounds of intermediate competition or something. And whatever you do, outside of the top few, the statistical 'noise' will cause the rankings to fluctuate wildly over time. I'm not sure what the point would be, to be honest.

    It's harder to see what the benefit would be to social dancers. Although giving the dancer-in-the-street a voice gives the same benefit as any other consumer organisation. Also, a ranking scheme might help students decide where to go for lessons in a saturated market - which I think we are nowhere near to being.
    Can't think of a worse use for a ranking scheme, to be blunt! (Seriously, I could see this taking MJ the "wrong way" - emphasis on competitions above everything else). But I can see other possible benefits:

    • Defining standards for teaching/venues: Although I can't see evaluating teachers working, a set of recommendations (e.g. wooden floor, wireless mikes, max # of dancers/sq metre etc.) might be workable.
    • Safety standards/insurance: Not sure what is/isn't practical here, but just things like getting a "pool of wisdom" vis. a vis. dance injuries - prevention/treatment could help a lot. And it might be possible to arrange group courses for teachers that wouldn't be possible for individuals. Possibly a group insurance scheme as well.
    • I think something that improves standards for competitors will usually improve standards for social dancers as well. After all, a lot of move, styling and technique changes have come from competitors.


    Dave

  3. #63
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    You are right that I should let my gripe with the Ceroc Champs go. However, part of my nature is to make sure my friends don't repeat mistakes I've made. So, until the Ceroc Championships start to treat competitors like human beings I will remind people how badly we were treated at the last competition they ran

    I had a great time at last years champs at Hammersmith , maybe thats because i got through more rounds then ever before and saw nothing wrong with the marking.Generally it seemed well organised given the numbers.

    The year before I didnt get pass first round of lucky dip and was convinced it was rig so I know where Andy is coming from I think ??

    People talk about getting better venues for places such as Hammersmith how about Albert Hall £500 a head

    A few years ago on this site much debate was given wether there should even be competitions, i just hope ceroc doent go full circle get 'boards' rules and marking and testing in next few years. The no foot work is now well out of the window

  4. #64
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Let's consider a non-competition related argument*. A dance floor is laid at a weekend event with large gaps between two of the sections. A dancer gets the heel of her dance shoe caught in that gap, falls over and breaks her wrist which makes her unable to work for one month. She has just changed jobs and therefore gets the statutory minimum of sick pay and is out of pocket by over £1,000. She asks the organiser for compensation and the organisers says 'no'. If there was an MJDA they could fight on her behalf to get compensation. After all, would a dance organiser stand against a united organisation of dancers? I think not - especially if Divissima was breathing down their necks.
    She gets a solicitor and the organiser PL Insurance would respond

    If the organised event doesnt have PL cover she just (via solicitors) sues the individual organisers.

  5. #65
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    She gets a solicitor and the organiser PL Insurance would respond
    {Cynic Mode On}
    And want to take a bet how many organisers actualy have PL Insurance?
    {Cynic Mode Off}

  6. #66
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    {Cynic Mode On}
    And want to take a bet how many organisers actualy have PL Insurance?
    {Cynic Mode Off}

    Probably most 'venues' that 'lend' the hall etc for a fee to a organiser have the PL covered under hirers liability ,where usage of hall over the year is disclosed.

    It would be a brave man or women who organises these events not to have any cover. Rates are coming down now.

  7. #67
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    It would be a brave man or women who organises these events not to have any cover. Rates are coming down now.
    WHERE??? Have you tried getting PLI cover? Not only are the rates sky high, the insurers unable to comprehend what you actualy do ... to make matters worse the numpties that are employed by the insurance brokers exhibit less competency and customer service than the Leeds (dis-)United back 4!

  8. #68
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    I had a great time at last years champs at Hammersmith , maybe thats because i got through more rounds then ever before and saw nothing wrong with the marking.Generally it seemed well organised given the numbers.

    The year before I didnt get pass first round of lucky dip and was convinced it was rig so I know where Andy is coming from I think ??
    Where I'm coming from on this is that I saw first-hand that the marks I was given by the judges were not recorded on the computer that was used to calculate who progressed to the next round. Until I saw that I had accepted that I hadn't been put through by the judges. To subsequently find that I had been put through, prove to the organiser that I had and then be told that I still couldn't go through is where I'm coming from

    There is no independent scrutiny of marks at the Ceroc Championships like there was at Britroc. We aren't even told how the marks are calculated, what the marks were or anything - it's all a big secret. Which makes us wonder what Ceroc have to hide. Although I suspect they've got nothing to hide and it's just their habit of secrecy.

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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    ... People talk about getting better venues for places such as Hammersmith how about Albert Hall £500 a head ...
    The Albert Hall is expensive, but nothing like that. It could be brought down to a viable price, with a lot of negotiation. They have a huge database, and could bring in considerable revenues with muggle spectators only tickets. It is a credible venue with considerable television expertise associated, and could be the basis of a major promotion exercise for MJ. IMO it would be too tight on dance floor space, although both the arena and stage could be used. It could be a negotiating nightmare, as many of the seats belong to life-sponsors who have the right to attend every event, in certain categories, for free.

    I did some work on a spreadsheet costing it all out, but working through their terms was a nightmare.

  10. #70
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    WHERE??? Have you tried getting PLI cover? Not only are the rates sky high, the insurers unable to comprehend what you actualy do ... to make matters worse the numpties that are employed by the insurance brokers exhibit less competency and customer service than the Leeds (dis-)United back 4!

    Going of thread a bit but thats why you have hirers liability so schools/halls etc who make lovely lolly out of you chaps arrange it themselves and declare who they hire the hall out to. A few yrs back it was more common for every class to arrange own cover but post 9/11 you can forget that. Hence the junior Insurance staff probably dont know what your talking about.

    Its obvioulsy expensive if it stand alone

  11. #71
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Make sure one of the organising committee is the DJ.He should have PLI of £1-£5 million.

  12. #72
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Where I'm coming from on this is that I saw first-hand that the marks I was given by the judges were not recorded on the computer that was used to calculate who progressed to the next round. Until I saw that I had accepted that I hadn't been put through by the judges. To subsequently find that I had been put through, prove to the organiser that I had and then be told that I still couldn't go through is where I'm coming from
    .
    Thats not good and I understand where you coming from

  13. #73
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    The Albert Hall is expensive, but nothing like that. It could be brought down to a viable price, with a lot of negotiation. They have a huge database, and could bring in considerable revenues with muggle spectators only tickets. It is a credible venue with considerable television expertise associated, and could be the basis of a major promotion exercise for MJ. IMO it would be too tight on dance floor space, although both the arena and stage could be used. It could be a negotiating nightmare, as many of the seats belong to life-sponsors who have the right to attend every event, in certain categories, for free.

    I did some work on a spreadsheet costing it all out, but working through their terms was a nightmare.
    Albert Hall sounds like a great idea if you don't want to mix a competition with a regular dance. Went to the International Championships (Ballroom/Latin) in October with a few other forumites. Prices ranged from £12 to £27. The hall wasn't used all day for comps though, only from early evening. The main comps were held over the previous 2 days at Brentwood Intnernational Hall (now there's a big dance floor ), with the final rounds at the AH. The Arena floor doesn't look big, but having seen 25-30 world class BD couples haring round I think there's plenty of space for MJ competitors, but definitely not for non-comp dancers in between events, we did get 2 30min sessions of general dancing with just enough space to breathe.

    Perhaps an idea would be to try to involve another dance organisation in the promotion, would push MJ in front of an extra audience and even more muggles.

  14. #74
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    The Dome ?

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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diference!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Is it only about competitions? Would you want to see unified competition criteria? Every competition the same? Would you want to score people to judge their ability? Would you want everyone to do things exactly the same way so that judges can see exactly who is better than who?
    Yes
    So if it's all about competitions, why sould the rest of the MJ community be bothered?

    Unified competition criteria means that you have no specialist competitions like "old gits" or a chance to compete beside teachers and taxis in one competition, but a chance to compete without them in another. Having a seperate "arial" competition and stricter "open", or an "Open" that includes arials. These differences are what makes one competiton different from another and gives them a slightly different 'pull' to the competing public.
    Vive la diference!

    Everyone having to perform a first move in the same way, a routine has to be made up from X moves from section A, with the remainder points made up from difficulty moves in section B,C and D. Marks will be deducted for inconsistencies and deviations from the text-book form and motion. AAAAAaaaarg!!!
    Sure it makes it easier for the judges, but what are they judging? that the people infront of them can contort their bodys to match a text-book image better than the last people infront of them. And that's dancing?
    If MJ ges down this road, what I dance will no longer be called MJ. {not that it can just now }

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    I can see other possible benefits:
    * Defining standards for teaching/venues: Although I can't see evaluating teachers working, a set of recommendations (e.g. wooden floor, wireless mikes, max # of dancers/sq metre etc.) might be workable.
    the floor is dictated by the venue, which is chosen by the organisers and is one of the factors to be considered - what influence could a MJDA insert on the choice of floor that the organiser hasn't thought on?
    Wireless mikes are advancing technology - I think it would probably be harder to find a chorded mike now than a wireless one. Don't tell me; the MJDA could endorse a brand name and get the funds to perpetuate it's own idea of importance.
    Number of dancers in relation to floor area: depends on the music going to be played, the level of dancer, what's on the edges of the dance floor, the cost of the hall in relation to the dance floor space and quality of it... again it's the organiser's call - too crowded and folk will leave; too empty and it dosn't meet costs & looks empty. The MJDA is going to solve all the problems of number of dancers per m2 with an arbatory figure that takes into account no other factors?

    at best it could publish 'guidelines'... but hang on, isn't there some "wisdom" out on public domain that could be usefull? Couldn't the organisers ask arround or guestimate from other venues/events?
    * Safety standards/insurance: Not sure what is/isn't practical here, but just things like getting a "pool of wisdom" vis. a vis. dance injuries - prevention/treatment could help a lot. And it might be possible to arrange group courses for teachers that wouldn't be possible for individuals. Possibly a group insurance scheme as well.
    organisers and bodys would consult folk on this - specific companies for "health & safety" exist that could be consulted. Generic "wisdom" can be found from many sources (including here) - what benefit does a MJDA give?
    * I think something that improves standards for competitors will usually improve standards for social dancers as well. After all, a lot of move, styling and technique changes have come from competitors.
    And what has the relation of competition dancers improving social dancing have to do with an MJDA? Theyt improve the social scene because they practic and (after the event) dance in their local venue: how does any influence over the standard of a competition change that? {big assumption that the MJDA would have any influence over any standard}

    So what would this MJDA do again?

  16. #76
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diference!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    So what would this MJDA do again?
    Whatever it is, over 80% of people who responded to the poll thought it would be fab

    This time Gadget is almost a lone voice in thinking there is no need for something like the MJDA.

  17. #77
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diference!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    the floor is dictated by the venue, which is chosen by the organisers and is one of the factors to be considered - what influence could a MJDA insert on the choice of floor that the organiser hasn't thought on?
    But the organisers might think twice about a venue with an unsuitable floor if they knew it wasn't going to be MJDA approved. I'm astounded at some of the floors used in London ( :cough: The Grand :cough: )!
    Wireless mikes are advancing technology - I think it would probably be harder to find a chorded mike now than a wireless one. Don't tell me; the MJDA could endorse a brand name and get the funds to perpetuate it's own idea of importance.
    Oh for God's sake! It's just an example! Though the usual problem is not having a mike at all.
    Number of dancers in relation to floor area: depends on the music going to be played, the level of dancer, what's on the edges of the dance floor, the cost of the hall in relation to the dance floor space and quality of it... again it's the organiser's call - too crowded and folk will leave; too empty and it dosn't meet costs & looks empty. The MJDA is going to solve all the problems of number of dancers per m2 with an arbatory figure that takes into account no other factors?
    Some venues definitely "pack 'em in" beyond what is particularly safe, and certainly beyond what is enjoyable. I avoid such places, and a way of finding out about them and avoiding them would be a good thing IMHO. But again, it was just an example.

    at best it could publish 'guidelines'... but hang on, isn't there some "wisdom" out on public domain that could be usefull? Couldn't the organisers ask arround or guestimate from other venues/events?
    Lots of things 'could' happen. Have they? Where's the URL for events with sprung wooden non-crowded dance floors?

    organisers and bodys would consult folk on this - specific companies for "health & safety" exist that could be consulted. Generic "wisdom" can be found from many sources (including here) - what benefit does a MJDA give?
    Again, we're getting to the 'coulds' and 'cans'. I grant you Ceroc is big enough to "do it itself". But for the smaller groups, it makes more sense to pool resources rather than each trying to work things out separately.

    And what has the relation of competition dancers improving social dancing have to do with an MJDA? Theyt improve the social scene because they practic and (after the event) dance in their local venue: how does any influence over the standard of a competition change that? {big assumption that the MJDA would have any influence over any standard}
    Obviously, because people's practice is influenced by what they're trying to do in competition; for example, if competition rewarded musicality over 'flash moves', you'd see less people doing dips and drops socially. Conversely, you currently see a lot of the top couples doing social aerials...

    So what would this MJDA do again?
    You know, for an organisation you don't think would do anything, you seem to be awfully strongly against it!

    What it actually does depends a lot on whether it ever comes into existance, and who gets involved. My concern is that it seems frequent competitors are the main activists, and that it will focus very much on competitions to the exclusion of the 99% of MJ that is social dance. To which end, it would seem a good thing if social dancers, teachers and organisers who care passionately about the direction of MJ would be involved. You would seem to be a prime candidate, in fact...

    Dave

  18. #78
    Commercial Operator Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diference!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Whatever it is, over 80% of people who responded to the poll thought it would be fab

    This time Gadget is almost a lone voice in thinking there is no need for something like the MJDA.
    Can't let this pass!!
    80% of the people who 'responded' to the poll think its a good idea. That's just great ..... but what about the people who have read through this self indulgent crap and haven't bothered to respond ( any idea what % of the Forum membership that might be!!) I for one have not bothered to respond to this poll and I know that lots of people who were original members of the CerocScotland Forum no longer bother to contribute either.
    Anyway, I'm not only talking about the 1200 members of this Forum, surely you can't propose to think and speak on behalf of those people who go along to Modern Jive just to have a good time ie for social reasons and couldn't give a toss about competitions and and haven't even heard about Cerocscotland.

    Gadget is NOT a lone voice, he may, in fact be speaking on behalf of the SILENT MAJORITY. Good on you Gadget, you may not be the world's best speller but you make you point most eloquently !!

    The BIG mistake some people make on this Forum is in assuming that they speak on behalf of everybody in the UK and not as is actually the case, on behalf of '80%' of those who actually bother to read through this diatribe and feel sufficiently motivated to respond ! Me? Well I have a life to get on with !!
    Bye for now,

    Heather,
    XX

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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diference!

    To be fair to Andy though, he did say '80% of people who responded'. Polls and threads like this are fine as long as we never assume we are speaking for anyone other than the people who actually responded to the poll (and thats assuming they were taking it seriously). I'm familiar with Andys concise style of writing and he often sounds like he's stating fact, just as Gadget sounds like he's being argumentative all the time I would hope people don't take these conversations TOO seriously. It makes me wonder how I come across to people who read MY posts .

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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diference!

    Quote Originally Posted by Heather
    Can't let this pass!!
    80% of the people who 'responded' to the poll think its a good idea. That's just great ..... but what about the people who have read through this self indulgent crap and haven't bothered to respond ( any idea what % of the Forum membership that might be!!) I for one have not bothered to respond to this poll and I know that lots of people who were original members of the CerocScotland Forum no longer bother to contribute either.
    Anyway, I'm not only talking about the 1200 members of this Forum, surely you can't propose to think and speak on behalf of those people who go along to Modern Jive just to have a good time ie for social reasons and couldn't give a toss about competitions and and haven't even heard about Cerocscotland.

    Gadget is NOT a lone voice, he may, in fact be speaking on behalf of the SILENT MAJORITY. Good on you Gadget, you may not be the world's best speller but you make you point most eloquently !!

    The BIG mistake some people make on this Forum is in assuming that they speak on behalf of everybody in the UK and not as is actually the case, on behalf of '80%' of those who actually bother to read through this diatribe and feel sufficiently motivated to respond ! Me? Well I have a life to get on with !!
    Bye for now,

    Heather,
    XX
    This seems to me to be an unnecessary attack on me. I quoted actual figures and qualified them. I was talking to people who are reading this thread and have voted on it, so was Gadget. We've got a debate going on here and there is absolutely no need for someone to rubbish our debate because there's not many people debating this subject.

    I speak for myself and express my own views, so does everyone else on here. Gadget doesn't speak for the silent majority and neither does Heather - how could anyone speak for the silent majority if they haven't heard from them

    It seems to me that Heather has an an opinion on this subject but prefers to pick fights and tell us what's wrong with our opinions rather than air her own. Come on Heather, let's hear what you think. To fail to vote in a poll and then complain about the result is sheer hypocisy.

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