Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

[bigdjiver]

At the moment there is a culture of dominance. And that comes from the dominant dance organisation who don't seem to listen to the dancer or even teacher who's out there in the real world.

They do listen, to many, many voices, all saying different things. When you are riding the crest of the wave it is difficult to accept that you can be doing much wrong.

For and example of this look at the way they treated the competitors at their championship

Things go wrong. In the heat of the moment it is difficult to fix them. That is why "the judges decision is final" clauses are there. Accept it. Learn. Move on.

Then look at the way they introduced the, what seems to be unpopular 'warm up'. At classes I've been to they've actually said things like 'we're supposed to do a warm up here - but I'm going to spare you that!'.

The generally accepted wisdom is that people should warm up before exercise. Some people would not hesitate to cite the lack of a warm-up as evidence of bad practise in court. Personally, I am sure that the way the beginners class is organised is perfectly OK, a jury could be persuaded otherwise.

At the moment there is one massive organisation that tries and mostly succeeds in dominating our chosen dance - us dancers have just about no say in the way our hobby is developed.

Learning dancers have been voting with their feet and pocket-book for years, and the evidence is solidly in favour of Ceroc.

So, I say the place for the MJDA is in giving dancers a voice.

It will be a self-selected subset of dancers, with a different agenda from the majority. The hope is that with the benefit of much experience and a substantial voice it may be a major catalyst for improvement. It could, with all of the best intentions, move MJ away from what has been its strength. I live in hope, and look forward to seeing how it pans out.

[Gus]

At the moment there is a culture of dominance. And that comes from the dominant dance organisation who don't seem to listen to the dancer or even teacher who's out there in the real world.

Andy ... give them a break ..... as much as I may have issues with Ceroc(tm) ... the MJ world is far better for it being their than without it. You comment on some of the changes made ... at least they had the balls to do something. With all due respect, the team that Ceroc has to assess teacher training and look at changes to the way MJ is taught far exceeds ANYONE else’s capability to do so. Last time I was involved they has about 3 experienced teachers and a teacher who was a 'proper' dance teacher .... want to propose any dance organisation who can match that?

They have their faults but why blow something away for the 10% they get wrong when they get 90% ok(-ish). I know other dance organisations who are making a far worse go of it than Ceroc. Re the competition ... again, maybe room for improvement but re you personal issue ... "build a bridge and get over it"! If you don’t like the competition, don’t enter. No one competition can claim to be the 'Best' ... .and the majority of dancers don’t actually care who wins ... so pick a competition you like and enjoy it.

I DON’T BELIEVE I’ve had to stand up for Ceroc twice in a month ... I hope this trend can be reversed.

[Andy McGregor]

Learning dancers have been voting with their feet and pocket-book for years, and the evidence is solidly in favour of Ceroc.

It's true that Ceroc attract more beginners to our hobby. But do they keep the highest proportion? I wonder ...

I DON’T BELIEVE I’ve had to stand up for Ceroc twice in a month ... I hope this trend can be reversed.

I agree that our hobby is better with Ceroc in it than not. But, I feel that Ceroc HQ could learn from franchisees like Ceroc Scotland - but they seem to be doing the opposite and expecting the rest of Ceroc to learn from Ceroc HQ

You are right that I should let my gripe with the Ceroc Champs go. However, part of my nature is to make sure my friends don't repeat mistakes I've made. So, until the Ceroc Championships start to treat competitors like human beings I will remind people how badly we were treated at the last competition they ran

[Dazzle]

I DON’T BELIEVE I’ve had to stand up for Ceroc twice in a month ... I hope this trend can be reversed.

GUS I think you need to sit in a dark room listening to dolphins and crashing waves, I don't recognise this person!

Has the ODA gone skiing for Christmas?

[Lou]

btw.... nice bit of domain registration, Mr ChrisA!

[ChrisA]

btw.... nice bit of domain registration, Mr ChrisA!

[ChrisA]

The hope is that with the benefit of much experience and a substantial voice it may be a major catalyst for improvement.

Now that I've been outed, let me say that this, and nothing other than this, is the agenda - which has yet to be fleshed out.

Independence, transparency, democracy will be the watchwords, if I have anything to do with it.

It may come to nothing. But it may not.



Chris

[jockey]

Anyone remotely interested in concepts such as justice, education, value for money and democracy has to take the idea of a mj dancers association seriously.
I'm late into this debate and I see it has got fearfully embroiled.
One of the key questions INMHO is 'what is the relationship between the dance organisations and we dancers?'; it is only when you have answered this question that you can arrive at what their respective interests are; and it is only if their interests are different (and not taken into account) that dancers need their own organisation to vocalise their case and influence matters.
Organisers dont govern so we dont need a voting system to vote them out of office; we dont work for them so we dont need a trade union to safeguard our pay and conditions; they run a business and provide a service it seems to me - so they should have a complaints dept, n'est ce pas?
An organisation that makes money and provides a service should not be in a monopoly position (the U.S. economy is more alert to this danger than here as they have an extremely powerful monopolies commission) otherwise service and price suffer. Thus in a situation where there are competing dance organisations the competition itself will tend to preserve the service e.g., if a neighbouring org has top teachers down for the same cost of entrance then dancers will go there and not the other place (who will have to think of another additional attraction to bring people back). If they are in danger of losing business they will listen to dancers' views and act to improve their package to their customers.
To sum up - the greater the dominance of one organisation the greater the need for an assoc. of dancers; this assumes lack of altruism, of course!
I believe their is a prima facie case for an association.
What its terms of reference, composition, powers, and funding might be I wouldn't care to say..except that in this Forum itself there is perhaps a proto organisation already - all you need, to start with at any rate, is to get owners of dance companies (or their reps) especially any in near monopoly positions to join in the debates initiated by we the dancers. (I can't wait for the fallout after a major competition - in more than one sense of the word...!!)

[bigdjiver]

They are not dance organisations, they are principally teaching people to dance organisations. It is because they have succeeded so well that there is now a need for dance organisations. The companies and the marketplace may well adapt to meet the new opportunities, and are moving in that direction, although, for many on the forum, not fast or far enough.

Any new organisation needs a clear, worthwhile, believable purpose. At the moment I see a mish-mash of gripes and suggestions for improvements, few of which are endorsed by all. This forum may well be all the organisation that is needed.

Of course, if we are so smart, we could always form a co-operative to put on dances for dancers, and make our collective fortunes

[Jive Brummie]

Ok,

so people think having a MJDA is a good idea (i'm sitting on the fence on this one, by the way), but in all honesty, what's it going to do for the dancer? How will it benefit us? Is it purely there to complain to organisers about competition's?

Andy mentioned the word hobby in his post and that got me thinking. If you have some regulatory body like the MJDA, would it still be classed as an innocent hobby that was there initially to enjoy in a social environment or would it take on a entirely more serious position in society?

JB x x

[Andy McGregor]

Andy mentioned the word hobby in his post and that got me thinking. If you have some regulatory body like the MJDA, would it still be classed as an innocent hobby that was there initially to enjoy in a social environment or would it take on a entirely more serious position in society?

JB x x

Yes I did say hobby. Football is a hobby too and it does make a valued contribution to society, so are many martial arts, other dance forms, etc. And some of them have organisations that are there for the participant in the hobby. When I fenced there was the AFA, Amateur Fencing Association (now re-named the BFA, British Fencing Association, here is their website). It's there for fencers, it's supported by fencers, etc. I think there's about 6,000 members. It's about the running of clubs and it's about the running and participating in competitions - it doesn't run the competitions but it does write the rules for them and produces the national ranking scheme. These are some of the things I'd see the MJDA doing. Is there anyone out there doing any of this at the moment? Does the Forum provide these services? So, I think it's needed and I think now is as good a time as any to make a start.

[Jive Brummie]

I think it's a great idea in principle, but if it was intended that the MJDA determine competition rules etc, then don't all the competition organisers need to get together and decide upon a leader, a committee etc? Who'm they trust enough to do so in the first place? And then you have to ask, who is going to get Ceroc, Leroc, Blitz et al, agreeing to anything let alone competition parameters?

And with reference to sporting bodies, most sports, in fact i can't think of one that doesn't (until someone tells me ), all have some form of grading system, whether it be, "you're good enough to make the first team" or "congratulations, here's your black belt", Modern Jive doesn't! In effect it's the mongrel of the dance world, so not only do you need to form an officiating body but then you have to produce rules, regulations and a heirachy/ranking ladder for all those taking part, and again to make use of the word hobby, do people really want that?

Modern jive for most is a social activity, that is undertaken by those people specificaly because it doesn't have rules, regulations, gradings or ranks, so isn't the formation of the MJDA going to potentially scare off these social dancers?

In practise and as a fierce competitor, i totally agree that some form of regulation is required, especially on the intermediate/ advanced arguem....erm.....discussion. But with relation to the masses, i'm not sure people really want that.

James

[Andy McGregor]

But with relation to the masses, i'm not sure people really want that.

James

Let's consider a non-competition related argument*. A dance floor is laid at a weekend event with large gaps between two of the sections. A dancer gets the heel of her dance shoe caught in that gap, falls over and breaks her wrist which makes her unable to work for one month. She has just changed jobs and therefore gets the statutory minimum of sick pay and is out of pocket by over £1,000. She asks the organiser for compensation and the organisers says 'no'. If there was an MJDA they could fight on her behalf to get compensation. After all, would a dance organiser stand against a united organisation of dancers? I think not - especially if Divissima was breathing down their necks.

*Disclaimer. This situation is fictional and any similarity to any real situation is unintentional.

And, on the subject of grading. There's no grading in fencing. You either win or you lose. That's it. There's currently no grading in MJ either. The only one I recognise is paid teacher/not paid to teach. All other grades of MJ'er exist in the imaginations of those people who dream them up and argue about them.

[Gus]

Maybe I've missed some of the points, but coming from another angle ... say I'm a muggle and I start dancing at, say Ceroc Blackpool ... what incentive would there be for me to bother to become a member ... what tangible benefits would it give me?

[Jive Brummie]

Again, I agree in principle but i have to be honest, I think an MJDA smacks of trade unionism, something i've never liked by the way. I would have the utmost sympathy for the injured party, and yes, she should get some form of financial recompense in light of the money she has lost, but it is also not the case that 'you pay your money - you take your chance'?

IMO 'unions' as such utilise 'bully boy' tactics. My pal wants to fight you but he's bigger than you, so you go and get your mates and you all take on the big boy. The old 'my dad is bigger than your dad' springs to mind. And also, i find that when these unions get bigger and stronger, they tend to forget about the individual?

I think it would be hard enough to determine who's on the committee, let alone what they're going to achieve.

As you can tell, i'm still not convinced despite the fact that i think it's actually quite a nice idea.

James

[Jive Brummie]

Maybe I've missed some of the points, but coming from another angle ... say I'm a muggle and I start dancing at, say Ceroc Blackpool ... what incentive would there be for me to bother to become a member ... what tangible benefits would it give me?

[Andy McGregor]

Maybe I've missed some of the points, but coming from another angle ... say I'm a muggle and I start dancing at, say Ceroc Blackpool ... what incentive would there be for me to bother to become a member ... what tangible benefits would it give me?

My own opinion is that the MJDA would be mostly of benefit to competitors by offering the following;

Standardised competition entry criteria.
Standardised competition rules.
Standardised competition judging methods.

And, because of all of the above we could have a national ranking scheme. And once we've got a ranking scheme we can divide categories by ability. For example, you couldn't be an intermediate (although I'd love to see this title disappear) dancer if you were in the top 100 or 200 or whatever.

It's harder to see what the benefit would be to social dancers. Although giving the dancer-in-the-street a voice gives the same benefit as any other consumer organisation. Also, a ranking scheme might help students decide where to go for lessons in a saturated market - which I think we are nowhere near to being.

But, according to the results of this poll at least, I'm in the minority in thinking the MJDA should be for competitors. Maybe the people that voted for all dancers could tell us what the benefits would be for them as it might explain why they voted that way - does this mean I agree with Gus? Surely not

[Gareth]

Modern jive for most is a social activity, that is undertaken by those people specificaly because it doesn't have rules, regulations, gradings or ranks, so isn't the formation of the MJDA going to potentially scare off these social dancers?.....

Not as far as I can see............

In Ballroom dancing there is a competitive association, which you have to join if you want to compete. This body do all the things that Andy has stated like:

Standardised competition entry criteria.

Standardised competition rules.

Standardised competition judging methods.

If you just want to socialise and attend classes there is no requirement to join.

I can`t see any differences between Modern Jive or Ballroom dancing that would prevent such an organisation being setup to represent dancers.

If you want to do more than the social scene, then you join the relevant body. I am unaware of any problems that have been created by such an organisation.

Another benefit in Ballroom competitions is that all judges marks are available for scutiny. This makes it far more open and enables the competitors to see where they need to improve.

[djtrev]

It seems to me that the motivation behind the MJDA has more to do with competitions than MJ dancers in general.
It appears that most of the people interested in the formation of such an organisation are either competitors or on this forum or are acquinted with each other because they either compete or travel to competitions to spectate.
If the catalyst for this organisation is to have a say in the rules,regulations and running etc. of already well established competitions surely the easiest way to gain that foothold is for all those interested parties to get together and make representation to the organisers.If you are not happy with the outcome of those meetings then you have a choice-accept it or boycott it.

[Gadget]

Dancing is a form of artistry - an extension to music. There are "battle of the bands" competions. There are music awards. There are festivals. Is there a body that stands up for people who play music?

I think this anology is far closer than any sporting one: sport is competative - dancing is expressive. Try photography for another comparison - there are people who's artistry you admire, some who's style you would love to reproduce. There are competitions, clubs and soceties devoted to it. Is there a body to oversee people who take photos?

What will this give individuals that individuals could not generate themselves? Is it only about competitions? Would you want to see unified competition criteria? Every competition the same? Would you want to score people to judge their ability? Would you want everyone to do things exactly the same way so that judges can see exactly who is better than who?

Please someone tell me the advantages of an MJDA again?