View Poll Results: What do you think of the idea of a Modern Jive Dancers Association?

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  • I think this is a fab idea for all dancers.

    18 54.55%
  • I think this is a fab idea for dance competitors

    9 27.27%
  • I don't care either way.

    3 9.09%
  • I think this is a silly idea - but I think Divissima is lovely.

    3 9.09%
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Thread: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

  1. #21
    Registered User Gareth's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    [QUOTE
    Code:
    ].. then I remember Gareth ".. and this year's award for bravery in the face crushing sympathy goes to .... Gareth's partner "
    [/QUOTE]

    I`m not sure if this is one of those backhanded compliments

    To have stood along side the good and the great, whilst dabbling in those scary and turbulent waters better known as advanced jive. Thanks to all the support from the likes of Lily and Daisy.



    This year has certainly been an experience


    Life is full of surprises, ups and downs ........ Like having to dance with Andy

  2. #22
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    I'm getting a bit lost here, particularly with crossover to competitions - rules, and int vs adv.

    What I read is that many people want to "improve" things. There appear to be issues regarding standards of competitions, facilities, rules, judging, and the standards of both individual couples and of partnerships, and amateur vs professional status.

    Whilst it's a great ambition to make the MJ world a better place, in reality, perhaps it's just like anything else artistic or sporting - there will often be competing associations with slightly different interests. Many of the ballroom dancers out there will be familiar with the arguments, which association/style has the better teachers, the better standards, the better competitions etc??

    One of the main elements in ballroom appears to be an umbrella organisation that the various teaching/style organisations belong to - this lays down rules/guidelines on teaching experience/standards, and some basic competition rules - eg beginners and novice can only dance a limited range of steps - allows easy comparison and encourages a level of technical accuracy at an early stage. Above that pretty much anything goes, so long as it’s recognisable as the relevant dance. Simple rules are that you can enter a comp at any level (and even dance at several levels at one comp), but once you've won you can't enter at a lower level, and once you've won a few you have to move up. That's geared around a pretty hectic open competition schedule, so would need some adapting to work for MJ; unless there were more comps (is that a good idea, especially if they were smaller?). This also assumes that all the MJ orgs could talk to each other, and then what happens to all the independents?

    The other element is a dancers association (paid membership), with elected reps from the dancers, not discriminating or dividing by experience at all. The aim is to provide support for all dancers (competitors or not) and training for national representatives (now there's an idea?), and to represent dancers to other interested bodies, such as competition organisers.

    There's also a promoters association, a professionals' organisation (which includes teachers and competitors), and a competitors association (which represents both amateur and professional). Confused, yes, I would be too.

    What's clear is that there is a lack of transparency (perceived or real) in MJ judging, and confusion over how the different categories/levels should be defined. The first will only come from the various organisers getting together, agreeing something and then telling everybody how it works - especially what people are being judged on - surely if they know then putting it in writing and telling the competitors can only help – and publishing the judges’ marks. The second is also pretty simple; people compete because they like it or because they want to win - so make the levels break so that people can compete on a regular or occasional basis and stand a reasonable chance of winning. At the highest level (and possibly for a couple of age groups), introduce national ranking competitions and spread these around the country (say 1 a month and could include the big ones in this), dance at several (say 3 or 4) and your placings count towards a ranking. Oh yeh, and introduce a professional category - if you get paid money for teaching, DJing, or earn money from organising then you are a professional. If you are a dem or a taxi, then I'd say you're not a professional (but feel free to disagree!).

    Hope this helps.

    PS. I vote Divi as founding President of the MJDA.

  3. #23
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth
    Life is full of surprises, ups and downs ........ Like having to dance with Andy
    And a lovely dance that was

  4. #24
    Registered User latinlover's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    I think we need to instigate a mediation service between Chris A and Gadget!!!!

    blimey!

  5. #25
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by latinlover
    I think we need to instigate a mediation service between Chris A and Gadget!!!!:
    Nahhhh ... they have even BEGUN to get started yet. If you want to see 'handbags at dawn' you should see some of the scraps I had with CJ and Will when the Forum first started

    They bothn have some good pints to make and they both have (sort of) justifiable view points. Long may the debate continue. Who wnats to start a book on who caves in first.

  6. #26
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    I agree with Gus, that Chris A and Gadget both have some good points. It depends on your perspective.

    I've seen situations where people are in the "in crowd" and it seems they're more likely to get chosen as a demo or as a teacher, and perhaps this partly reflects Gadgets point of view (please feel free to disagree with me Gadget!) The other side to this is that perhaps if people regularly compete they are more likely to know the type of people that can help them and are practicing regularly and are therefore better dancers - so perhaps this is the reason they are picked. Having said that, not all of the "in crowd" that I see are competitors.

    As an "average" dancer, I can see Gadget's point that sometimes competitors do seem unaproachable, and that they also may have their own agendas. I have often found though that guys who I have danced with after taking every bit of guts to ask them are sometimes very friendly, and sometimes very aloof - also some are good dancers and some (despite the fact they should know better) yank you about! Same as anyone else, it depends on the person - Chris is right on this though, if you want to dance with someone, just ask, what have you got to lose!

    As to the real topic of this thread, I think if a MJDA could get the average dancer what they wanted that would be great. This could include lobbying for set standards on things like teaching, levels of competance for taxi dancers, smoking (or rather non smoking please) in venues, then that would be a good thing. I also think if it was just run for competitors this would rule all of the above out, which would be a shame.

    As to the competitions, yes if they're not fair then they should be made fairer, and the judging should be to transparent critera, and also feedback should be given - this would make things better for those watching as well as the competitors - and probably up the standards over time. I also like Eric's point, that beginners, intermediate etc should have more specific critera, so you don't get situations where you can hardly tell the difference between the two!

    I can't really see with all the warring going on between Ceroc and anyone else (or sometimes different Ceroc areas you get the feeling!) that this is likely to happen. It would be interesting to know how and at what stage Eric's listed Ballroom associations got started, and also how long/how many members it took to get them taken seriously.

    Good luck to anyone whose got the guts to try and set something up though!

    There I've said my bit now.

    Trish

  7. #27
    Registered User latinlover's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trish
    I agree with Gus, that Chris A and Gadget both have some good points. It depends on your perspective.
    ..............big snip..................
    Good luck to anyone whose got the guts to try and set something up though!

    Trish


    OK my turn for the two penn'orth!

    bearing in mind what little I know about running a franchise - never mind the whole of the ceroc organisation - it would be a very brave person who took this on because ,as witnessed on this forum you can't please everyone all of the time!
    I don't really believe for a minute that Ceroc TM is in business for any other reason than to make a living out of providing a dancing organisation, and I certainly don't believe Ceroc TM is guilty of the cynical approach of which it is frequently accused(by implication , mostly) on this forum.
    I think it would be a good thing if there was an organisation to represent the many and varied needs of dancers, both in competitions and as punters, but I think it would be a rather poisoned chalice and whoever did it would end up getting more criticism than thanks

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Trish
    Good luck to anyone whose got the guts to try and set something up though!Trish[/QUOTE

  8. #28
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trish
    I've seen situations where people are in the "in crowd"
    All good points, Trish.

    I'll just pick up on this one...

    The "in crowd" is all about perspective too. Those who see a "crowd" as "in" must presumably find something appealing about their scene... otherwise they wouldn't see them as "in".

    From the outside of anywhere that you want to be inside, it feels cold. Most of us have a desire to feel accepted in some way.

    So what to do? To be recognised by a "gang" that you want to join you have to make yourself appealing to the gang in some way.

    Fortunately, the dancers "gang" is quite easy to join. You don't have to bite the heads off chickens, you just have to want to be a better dancer, and persist in improving. Which means comps, weekenders, workshops, big freestyles, all the stuff we know and love - in other words, investment of time, money, and effort.

    None of this is rocket science, though - it just so happens that you keep running into the same people all the time

    I think that's the only thing that, in the MJ world, at least, differentiates the "in crowd" - it tends to be the more obsessive ones.

    Chris

  9. #29

    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by latinlover
    I think it would be a rather poisoned chalice and whoever did it would end up getting more criticism than thanks.
    Sounds to me like this job description was written just for GUS!

  10. #30
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    All good points, Trish.

    I'll just pick up on this one...

    The "in crowd" is all about perspective too. Those who see a "crowd" as "in" must presumably find something appealing about their scene... otherwise they wouldn't see them as "in".

    etc etc

    Chris
    Interesting. Yes, you're quite right. I think the crowd I'm thinking of are made up of teachers, demos and one or two other good dancers, who are mainly as you say, fairly obsessive! I like them as people but feel I am on the edge of this crowd (as are various other people I know) and don't feel quite part of it. Part of this is defintely because I can't go to everything, my life has other elements as well as my love of dancing, my husband doesn't dance, and so I can't go every night, as I also want to see him - and I am aware of this.

    The funny thing is, you may be right, that it's all a perspective thing, and that other people looking in at us may think I am part of this crowd - makes you think - perhaps I should change my perspective! The other interesting thing now I come to think about it is, that where I am (I admit) slightly jealous of their dance abilities, and the fact they are free to dance when and where they like, when I got married, at least one person I know admitted being jealous of how happy I am. I wouldn't give that up for dancing - however much I love it!

    Thanks Chris - That's made me feel better and more balanced!!!

  11. #31
    Forum Bombshell - Our Queen! Lory's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    I'd like to read a synopsis of this thread, with bullet points listing all the points raised so far, for and against.

    Anyone up for the job?
    MODERATOR AT YOUR SERVICE
    "If you're going to do something tonight, that you know you'll be sorry for in the morning, plan a lie in." Lorraine

  12. #32
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    ...load of negative cynical stuff snipped
    Whatever.
    You don't have to join, if it ever comes into being.
    I'm open to persuasion: come up with positive arguments that will counter the negative ones! I don't see how a combined body of these respected dancers would do more good than them as individuals?
    One voice with the backing of ten people, or ten voices saying the same thing... as an organiser I would say that it's easier to ignore/forget the single voice no matter how much 'volume' it has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric
    I'm getting a bit lost here, particularly with crossover to competitions - rules, and int vs adv.
    Was this a sugestion to convert a "people's army" {} into a ruling body? Dictate not only what the competition rules are, but what moves you can/can't do, who is allowed to teach, who is at what level,...
    :shudder:

    Ceroc, Blitz, Leroc, whatever all teach you how to dance. There may be subtle differences in methods and styling, but essentially, they all teach the same thing: how to move yourself and your partner with the music.
    If you put a ruling body over the top of them all, what would/could it do? Impose limits. Confine, restrain, seperate, divide and pigeonhole all the mix that makes it what it is.
    Ballroom already has limits, firm boundaries that say this is and this is not. Grading and tutorage can be judged and measured against each other because they are all doing the same thing.
    You cannot have a strict 'rulebook' method to quantify MJ (teachers, dancers, grading, points, ability, competitions...) untill you have a definition of what it is - and the best definitition I have seen so far is made by outlining what it isn't
    It is subjective and it's an art form. It's like saying that you have to have one body to rule over the production of music. This is music, this is not. It can only be 'music' if you play this set of notes in this order to this timeing.

    The more I think about this anology, the more I like it .

  13. #33
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    If you put a ruling body over the top of them all, what would/could it do? Impose limits. Confine, restrain, seperate, divide and pigeonhole all the mix that makes it what it is.
    Wasnt sure that anyone said that the MJDA was there to TELL organisers anything I dont know how I would feel even as an independant having Jo Public trying to tell me how to teach.

    I thought the role was more of communication ... two-way communication. canvasing the needs of the MJ dancing public and articulating that to the Competition orgainsers, DJs, Class and Freestyle organisations. It would also enable feedback or observations back to the dancers about what is going on, whether that be good or bad. If the analogy is that of a Union, a Nuclear power plant operator isnt told HOW to run the plant, though suggestions may be made as to how to help employees comfort and protect their safety. Dont we as dancers want the same?

  14. #34
    Registered User Divissima's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Trish
    It would be interesting to know how and at what stage Eric's listed Ballroom associations got started, and also how long/how many members it took to get them taken seriously.
    I'm on the case, Trish. I am going to spend some time over Christmas looking at the ballroom organisations, and any other dancers' organisations, to see what they do for their members and how they work.

  15. #35
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Divissima
    I'm on the case, Trish. I am going to spend some time over Christmas looking at the ballroom organisations, and any other dancers' organisations, to see what they do for their members and how they work.
    Give me a shout, I'll get the grey cells going as well. Sure I have some old membership info somewhere.

    E

  16. #36
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Divissima
    I'm on the case, Trish. I am going to spend some time over Christmas looking at the ballroom organisations, and any other dancers' organisations, to see what they do for their members and how they work.
    Must admit, I'm confused as to what problem(s) you're trying to solve.
    And also whether / how you might make it attractive to a "regular" modern jiver?

    I would have thought that the traditional idea of publishing a "manifesto" might be a good first step

    SpinDr.

    P.S. I guess the traditional second step is fund-raising, at which point you get a much better idea of who might *really* be interested

  17. #37
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by Divissima
    I'm on the case, Trish. I am going to spend some time over Christmas looking at the ballroom organisations, and any other dancers' organisations, to see what they do for their members and how they work.
    Thanks Divissima - and Eric!

  18. #38
    Registered User Divissima's Avatar
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr
    Must admit, I'm confused as to what problem(s) you're trying to solve.
    And also whether / how you might make it attractive to a "regular" modern jiver?

    I would have thought that the traditional idea of publishing a "manifesto" might be a good first step
    Well, that's why it is worth looking at what other similar organisations do - I'm sure there will be some things which look transferable to MJ, and some which won't be, or won't be just yet. There are also lots of good ideas and interesting points raised on this thread. I agree, a manifesto/ mission statement would be a good place to start, at least so that the so-far nebulous idea of an MJDA has some form for dancers and interested parties to talk about (and I'm sure we all will). Then if no-one wants to sign up, we'll know we got it wrong

    P.S. I guess the traditional second step is fund-raising, at which point you get a much better idea of who might *really* be interested
    Well quite.

  19. #39
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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    I look back at ballroom as something that the masses did, which then took the road to popular oblivion until SCD. I feel competitons, standards and professionalism all played their part in that. Too many people did not feel they could do it just for enjoyment. I do not want MJ to take that elitist path. There is a place for those that seek for perfection and give mere mortals something to admire and aspire to, but that, IMO, should never become the dominant culture.

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    Re: Modern Jive Dancers Association - Viva La Diva!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver
    I look back at ballroom as something that the masses did, which then took the road to popular oblivion until SCD. I feel competitons, standards and professionalism all played their part in that. Too many people did not feel they could do it just for enjoyment. I do not want MJ to take that elitist path. There is a place for those that seek for perfection and give mere mortals something to admire and aspire to, but that, IMO, should never become the dominant culture.
    At the moment there is a culture of dominance. And that comes from the dominant dance organisation who don't seem to listen to the dancer or even teacher who's out there in the real world. For and example of this look at the way they treated the competitors at their championship Then look at the way they introduced the, what seems to be unpopular 'warm up'. At classes I've been to they've actually said things like 'we're supposed to do a warm up here - but I'm going to spare you that!'. If they listened to the dancers and teachers maybe they wouldn't introduce unpopular ideas - and maybe they'd treat competitors like they were valued.

    At the moment there is one massive organisation that tries and mostly succeeds in dominating our chosen dance - us dancers have just about no say in the way our hobby is developed.

    So, I say the place for the MJDA is in giving dancers a voice. And as I am now an organiser as well as a dancer I will be delighted to be told how to improve my product. Especially as one of the reasons I became an organiser was to see MJ develop the way I think it should do - that and I wanted somewhere good to go on a Thursday night that didn't require a 1 hour drive.

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