Competitions - Intermediate or Advanced?

[Gus]

Anyone fancy having the first MJDA dance competition on the Sunday of the May Day bank holiday?

Sure, as long as its well NORTH of London

[Andy McGregor]

Sure, as long as its well NORTH of London

Watford?

[Graham W]

...my personal view is that the organisers could introduce some rules about previous inter medal winners having to do advanced in the future - the joy on my inexperienced (at the time) partner's face when winning was a joy but she wouldnt have had too so much chance with the current crop of advanced dancers competing in that field (eg - sheepman, ) BUT unless the organisers do change it then personally I dont grumble - just enjoy..

G

[Andy McGregor]

...my personal view is that the organisers could introduce some rules about previous inter medal winners having to do advanced in the future - the joy on my inexperienced (at the time) partner's face when winning was a joy but she wouldnt have had too so much chance with the current crop of advanced dancers competing in that field (eg - sheepman, ) BUT unless the organisers do change it then personally I dont grumble - just enjoy..

G

I agree that a change in the rules is needed. But who can agree what the change should be?

[skippy]

you'd need to post a pic so we know who you are

Unfortunately I don't know how to do that and also I don't want to be the one how is remembered as the desperate one!!!
But if someone could tell me I will give it a go!!!

[ElaineB]

The Weston Super Mare competition appeared to be more friendly towards the true intermediate. It recommends that the competitor has at least six months experience. The Advanced section is 'for those who have been dancing for one year or more', which suggests that those with more experience should come out of the intermediates and into this section. Although I was suprised to see one couple who IMHO should have been in the Advanced as they had both competed before, one of whom at a higher level.

Elaine

[ElaineB]

Before anyone wonders - it wasn't Andy - he was competing with Lynn who has not been dancing for very long and has never competed before.......phew, think I got that in before anyone noticed?

That scenario, as with Greg and his partner in the intermediates at Blackpool this year is fine (IMHO)! Neither of their partners had competed before.

Of course, as I have posted before, bringing in a points system would get over all of this!


Elaine

[Lynn]

Before anyone wonders - it wasn't Andy - he was competing with Lynn who has not been dancing for very long and has never competed before.......phew, think I got that in before anyone noticed?

And that was at Britroc, not WSM

[Andy McGregor]

And that was at Britroc, not WSM

Correct. At WSM I competed with my wife, Sue. We got through one round and she was pleased to have got that far

Which was exactly the same distance as I got with Lynn at Britroc in Brighton

As I came second at Britroc in the Advanced I think this shows that a couple dance to the ability of the least experienced dancer. In other words, I see nothing wrong in an advanced dancer dancing in the intermediate category with an intermediate dancer as they will be dancing at an intermediate level.

[Graham]

I don't believe it's true that a couple dances to the ability of the least experienced partner: I really think there's a significant difference between the leader and the follower in this respect. Whilst an experienced leader with an inexperienced follower might not win an intermediate category, they stand a good chance of getting to the final - I have seen this many times. An experienced follower, no matter how good, cannot carry the leader quite so easily - the leader will still have to be dancing to at least an average (for the competition) standard in order to get through the first round.

Given this, it's tempting to ignore the standard of the follower when assessing which category a couple should enter. However in addition to the barriers this would cause for experienced leaders who are bringing on inexperienced partners (as in Gus's case), it might result in intermediate leaders pairing with really good followers in an attempt to win the category, which could risk distorting the lead/follow nature of the dance.

Finally, I'd like to say to highly experienced people who enter the intermediate category "for a laugh": when you have put in weeks of practice there is nothing more disheartening than getting knocked out in the first round. Please bear in mind that you getting through to the final is consigning someone else to early elimination.

[Andy McGregor]

I don't believe it's true that a couple dances to the ability of the least experienced partner: I really think there's a significant difference between the leader and the follower in this respect. Whilst an experienced leader with an inexperienced follower might not win an intermediate category, they stand a good chance of getting to the final - I have seen this many times. An experienced follower, no matter how good, cannot carry the leader quite so easily - the leader will still have to be dancing to at least an average (for the competition) standard in order to get through the first round.

I think that a good lead can make a follower dance as well as they can dance - but that's all. They can be no better than their standard of dance. But a bad lead can not get the best out of a follower. Let's consider the two scenarios;

1. Intermediate lead/advanced follower - as the leader can only lead what they know the follower can only follow what they're given - and maybe add a few flourishes and sexy wiggles. So the standard of the couple will be the same as or slightly better than the intermediate lead.

2. Intermediate follower/advanced lead - the follower can only dance their best, no more than that. And they can add no more to it than they're equipped to do. The leader is usually expecting those flourishes to come from the follower so has little to add to the dance except good leading. So, the standard will be the same as the best the intermediate dancer can do without the handicap of an intermediate lead.

In fact, now I've written this I think couple 1 is more likely to raise their game than couple 2. But I think the difference would be negligible.

What I will say though is that, considering a dancer who's been dancing for one year, the chances are that the follower will be a far better dancer than the leader.

[Graham]

I think that a good lead can make a follower dance as well as they can dance - but that's all. They can be no better than their standard of dance. But a bad lead can not get the best out of a follower.

Whilst I agree with your reasoning, I don't think you're properly taking into account how competitions are judged. From purely a style and technique perspective, no problem, but the other things which need to be factored in are musicality and flash moves. Both of these things are very much easier for a good lead to impose on an inexperienced follower than the other way round.

[Gus]

1. Intermediate lead/advanced follower - as the leader can only lead what they know the follower can only follow what they're given - and maybe add a few flourishes and sexy wiggles. So the standard of the couple will be the same as or slightly better than the intermediate lead.

Hey Great!! Does that mean I can compete in the intermediates this year?

[ChrisA]

Hey Great!! Does that mean I can compete in the intermediates this year?

Would you, if there was no "no teachers" rule?

If so, why?

If not, why not?

[Gus]

Would you, if there was no "no teachers" rule?

If so, why?

If not, why not?

Aha ... the fundamental question is why compete at all?

[ChrisA]

Aha ... the fundamental question is why compete at all?

Maybe it is, but how about answering the one that was asked?

[Gus]

Maybe it is, but how about answering the one that was asked?

OK

Would you, if there was no "no teachers" rule?
If so, why? If not, why not?

Simple answer No ... because Intermediate sectionn is for intermediates and I'm not intermediate, even if there are dancers who are better than me in that category. If I am going to compete I want to compete in the top categroy that I can. I won the UK Karate Champs (kumite) in the 'Junior' section (i.e. below brown belt). For a number of reasons it felt cheap, mostly because my sparing mates were a couple of belts higher than me and fighting in the Senior category ... brown and black belt. I would have given up my medals there and then to have been able to get through just one round of the senior contest. The same ethos applies to competing at dancing.

[Andy McGregor]

Aha ... the fundamental question is why compete at all?

Because we enjoy it?

[Graham W]

I agree that a change in the rules is needed. But who can agree what the change should be?

...whatever they decide will not please everyone ...,

G

[Andy McGregor]

OK

Simple answer No ... because Intermediate section is for intermediates and I'm not intermediate,

Firstly, this assumes that you have defined 'intermediate', which you haven't. Secondly, once 'intermediate' has been defined who will you know for sure that you aren't one?

Self assessment?

Me? I'm intermediate because I say the level of intermediate is my level