Competitions - Intermediate or Advanced?

[Gus]

I remember feeling huge respect for my mate Asif, who entered Advanced last time at Blackpool, when he made it through to the second round.

He went out after that, inevitably, considering the gliterati who he was up against. But he went for it, danced well, and by no means disgraced himself.

Coem ON!!! Asif was classed as an upper intermediate when I was a beginner!! What is with this "you have to be a world champion before you enter advanced" attitude that seems to abound. ALL teachers have to enter that category, even if they've only be dancing a year or so. There is VERY LITTLE correlation between being able to teach a standard MJ class and the ability of compete! .... and to call them 'professional' is extremely misleading. Many of them have a standard that would not get them into the final of intermediates .....

God I hate this topic

[ChrisA]

Come ON!!! Asif was classed as an upper intermediate when I was a beginner!! What is with this "you have to be a world champion before you enter advanced" attitude that seems to abound. ALL teachers have to enter that category, even if they've only be dancing a year or so. There is VERY LITTLE correlation between being able to teach a standard MJ class and the ability of compete! .... and to call them 'professional' is extremely misleading. Many of them have a standard that would not get them into the final of intermediates .....

I don't know what point you're making, Gus. And I don't know why you're having such a go at me about it when I've been on record loads of times as saying that it should be nothing to do with whether you teach, or earn money doing it, just how well you do in the comps. I suspect that we actually agree on this one - but I see no evidence that you actually read what I write before launching into me. Eejit

You haven't been down to the hire shop for an axe grinder have you?

I cited Asif as an example of someone who, IMHO, is good (and very musical) and knows lots of cool stuff but isn't in the Amir/Nigel/Clayton/Viktor league, to name some of the very best guys. So I had more respect for him getting through a round at Blackpool Advanced than I had for some others getting through to the final of the Intermediates.

What's the problem with that?????

And of course I don't think you have to be world champion to enter the Advanced - eejit again - gawd knows I'm not world champion and J & I have saddled ourselves now with that particular category - purely since we felt it was right to move up after we fluked a place at Hammersmith.

After a little saunter in the Peak District, we now find ourselves with Everest to scale.

Chris

[ChrisA]

God I hate this topic

Er... and who started it up again...??

BEFORE I GET FLAMED FOR RAISING THIS OLD TOPIC AGAIN ... I have a serious and practical question.

Berk

Male Teacher partners a female intermediate dancer in the Open Dance competition. 6 months later the female dancer wants to enter an intermediate comeptition with her regular intermediate partner. Should she or, now that she has competed at the highest level, should she only be allowed to compete at advanced level or above?

And as for your question, why on earth should having danced with a teacher (who, as you say, might be an intermediate himself ) eliminate an intermediate non-teacher from the Intermediates.

Unless it was within the last two years and you paid her to dance with you, of course...

[Gus]

I don't know what point you're making, Gus. :
I cited Asif as an example of someone who, IMHO, is good (and very musical) and knows lots of cool stuff but isn't in the Amir/Nigel/Clayton/Viktor league, to name some of the very best guys. So I had more respect for him getting through a round at Blackpool Advanced than I had for some others getting through to the final of the Intermediates.

I wasnt having a go at you. The point I was trying (and failing) to make is that Asif IS a dancer who I regard as being advanced. Previoiusly I think thare was a general consensus that the Amir/Nigel/Clayton/Viktor are a league above that. SOooooo Asif SHOULD compete in the advanced ... thats his correct level. I've seen other couples who HAVE to compete at a higher level because theyve taught the odd class ... THAT I think is unfair. As to the overal topic .... ack ... there will never be a true consensus of opionion and the same old statements will come around again .... c'est la vie. I WAS truly concerned about the consensus on my original question.. that seems to have been answered so I'm happy

[David Franklin]

I wasnt having a go at you. The point I was trying (and failing) to make is that Asif IS a dancer who I regard as being advanced.

But that's your personal judgment (and so the circle continues... ). I think the thing that makes this difficult is that there are dancers I consider advanced who would probably not win or even place at intermediate. It's really easy to end up saying "anyone who is good enough to place at intermediate is too good to enter intermediate". On one level this is silly, on another level, it contains a rather large grain of truth at the moment.

Don't know what the answer is. I previously suggested that you should get "perks" for entering advanced e.g. more floor space, freedom to do airsteps, less competitors cut per round. I don't think many agreed...

Dave

[ChrisA]

SOooooo Asif SHOULD compete in the advanced ... thats his correct level.

And I wasn't disputing it. [bangs head on desk]

But he was happy to do so against all the gods/goddesses, and didn't compete at Intermediate level just because he was eligible to. Hence I thought it was worthy of respect

Duhhhhhhhhhh

I've seen other couples who HAVE to compete at a higher level because theyve taught the odd class ... THAT I think is unfair.

There, there

Deep breath....

I know. It's been my consistent point whenever the subject has come up all ****ing year !!!!!!

But we're buggered aren't we? No one amongst the organisers at any of the comps are prepared to listen to this view

So what can we do except rant about it here?

[ChrisA]

I previously suggested that you should get "perks" for entering advanced e.g. more floor space, freedom to do airsteps, less competitors cut per round. I don't think many agreed...

Well I don't agree that there should be airsteps in the Advanced cat; obviously this is a subjective view since I can't do 'em!!

But there is one fab perk:

Decent music

[Dreadful Scathe]

I know. It's been my consistent point whenever the subject has come up all ****ing year !!!!!!

This is great fun - just you two keep going, we're loving it

[Andy McGregor]

But that's your personal judgment (and so the circle continues... ). I think the thing that makes this difficult is that there are dancers I consider advanced who would probably not win or even place at intermediate. It's really easy to end up saying "anyone who is good enough to place at intermediate is too good to enter intermediate".

I was saying this, and being flamed for it, last year. After the Blackpool competition, I was being told by many people, including the person that won the intermediate at Blackpool (I came 4th ) that I was too good to enter Of course, I took this as a compliment

[Lory]

By the way, anyone want to do Advanced at Blackpool? My usual partner is unavailable.

If only I was younger.....skinny ...... lived near Bristol and, oh yeah, could dance! Damn!

[ChrisA]

I was saying this, and being flamed for it, last year. After the Blackpool competition, I was being told by many people, including the person that won the intermediate at Blackpool (I came 4th ) that I was too good to enter Of course, I took this as a compliment

Well to humour DS

and for the record .... I never said that you shouldn't have entered the Intermediates last year. I mean you'd been placed before but dancing with another guy, presumably for fun

I think it was Hollie dancing as an intermediate that the most raised eyebrows were about.

Chris

[skippy]

By the way, anyone want to do Advanced at Blackpool? My usual partner is unavailable. [/QUOTE]

I am sorry I live so far away but if you don't find a partner nearer I would be up for having a go.
I danced in the Scottish Champs two years ago and came 2nd in the Intermediates with a guy who had only been dancing a short while and last year couldn't find a partner so danced man.
So if you don't find anyone and up for only one night of practise!!!!

[Dreadful Scathe]

By the way, anyone want to do Advanced at Blackpool?

you'd need to post a pic so we know who you are

[Divissima]

But we're buggered aren't we? No one amongst the organisers at any of the comps are prepared to listen to this view

So what can we do except rant about it here?

The dancers united will never be defeated!

Modern Jive Dancers' Association anyone??

OK, but failing that, how about a campaign of letter email/writing - I know that the Chance to Dance people read the Forum, I'm sure other organisers do too. But that doesn't quite seem enough, as Chris has pointed out. How about a few of us email them directly asking for the changes to the rules we actually want (I'm assuming here that we all want different things, so we shouldn't try to agree here what we want to say before emailing! )

It's all very well to complain here, but we need to tell the organisers directly...

[Divissima]

Just sent my email....

Here's hoping

[Andy McGregor]

The dancers united will never be defeated!

Modern Jive Dancers' Association anyone??

Now there's an idea that I've been thinking about for a while. But it was a "Modern Jive Competitors Association". If you consider who the finalists are in every competition it's the same bunch of dancers. If we were to band together we could possibly call the shots. At the very least we wouldn't be humiliated like we were at the Ceroc champs when they had us changed and ready, waiting at the side of the dance floor to hear if we could go on and compete in the next round - and then changed the order of the heats so you were in the wrong outfit because a Ceroc teacher asked for more time to get changed

Now there is something to get angry about and unite over. I say lets stop arguing amongst ourselves about who should be in what category and get organised into a force that Ceroc treat as human beings rather than the hired help like we were at last years Ceroc championships

Mr Ellard has failed to apologise for treating us so shabbily. He doesn't publish his judging method. There were massive errors in last years judging with some judges marks not finding their way onto the computer - I am absolutely certain of this one and so is Mr Ellard as I was there when he found out! And what have we heard - nothing! We're expected to appear on cue, changed and ready; practice for months; get costumes, pay a fortune to enter and be treated like our opinions don't matter.

I say, Mr Ellard, if you can't treat the competitors better then don't organise a competition

Me, entering the Ceroc championships? After the way we were treated last year, no way. I didn't even get given the bottle of 'Old Git' wine I was promised

[Divissima]

Here's the way I saw it:

Perhaps it is time to dust off an old idea of Daisy's... and found the UK Modern Jive Dancers' Assiciation (or Federation) - a federation for dancers to have their own voice, separate from the teaching and competition organisations. The MJDA could lobby for things like transparent judging criteria, standardised categories (maybe even an accepted definition of beginner, intermediate and advanced). They could also organise a national league table of dancers with rankings, if people were interested in having one. They could represent the interests of all MJ dancers - maybe by providing information on dance-related matters (maybe a list of dance physio and other therapists), print cool t-shirts, negotiate discounts with dance events, and generally be good eggs...

OK, so I'm half joking, but I'm also half serious. I think dancers could benefit from having a voice, independently of the ceroc, leroc and other organisations. I particularly think that competitive dancers would benefit from having a voice in relation to the competition organisers - but we competitors are in a very small minority when compared with the number of MJ dancers in the UK. What do people think? If enough people think I'm not completely off my rocker, I could look into it further (look at what the BDF and other organisations do for their members).

For replies and further discussion on it check out this thread from back in August

[Graham]

I think it's worth further consideration, Divi. Perhaps you could go ahead with your research and publish what you find.

[Gus]

Mr Ellard has failed to apologise for treating us so shabbily. He doesn't publish his judging method. There were massive errors in last years judging with some judges marks not finding their way onto the computer - I am absolutely certain of this one and so is Mr Ellard as I was there when he found out! And what have we heard - nothing! We're expected to appear on cue, changed and ready; practice for months; get costumes, pay a fortune to enter and be treated like our opinions don't matter.

I say, Mr Ellard, if you can't treat the competitors better then don't organise a competition

Look ...there is one way to deal with events that you dont like .... YOU DONT GO!! (Doh)! Having been to three Ceroc Championshps I eventualy got fed up with the lousy organisation, lack of dancefloor, poor judging decisions (IMHO) and a whole host of other issues ... so I dont go ... and most people from our clubs now won't go. Simple. If Ceroc Champs ever get their act in gear we may change our mind ... till that day we will support the C2D as the only REAL National Champs. This is NOT anti-Ceroc ... its anti-Ceroc Champs ... important difference.

[Andy McGregor]

poor judging decisions

The judging decisions might have been good. However, it doesn't matter how good they are if they never make it onto the computer that's used to calculate who goes through to the next round.

Here is what happenned;

At the last championships I was lucky enough to get a fab dancer called Helen in the lucky dip. She dances at Hipsters, had won (I think) or been placed in the Twyford DWAS competition and I was delighted to get partnered with her in the lucky dip. We felt we danced very well in the first heat, people even said we were the best couple in our heat. I was surprised when we didn't get through that round but took it as the judges decision. Pammy is a great chum of Helen and didn't let it go so easily, she spoke to the judges for the heat. Simon White and Mrs BillCo (sorry, don't know her name) both said they voted for us to be promoted to the next round.

Pammy pestered me to speak with the powers that be about this. I found Mr Ellard in the room with the computer that calculates the scores and the guy that enters the data. I asked if there was a mistake with my lucky dip entry as I'd heard that at least one judge had voted us through. Mr Ellard asked the computer guy to take a look at the computer for me and was told that no votes were cast in our favour - I then asked Mr Ellard to look at Simon White's voting form - there was our number for couples to be promoted! Mr Ellard blustered a bit and said that we might not have gone through anyway as it needs one or two judges to vote for you. I told him that Mrs BillCo had also voted for us and he said it was too late as the next heat had already been run

So, there you have it. The judging decisions might be OK - but they don't all get taken into account when deciding who gets promoted. It seems to me that the lucky dip was exactly that, a raffle. And not just as far as partner selection is concerned. You not only needed the judges to vote in your favour, you also needed to be lucky enough to have your votes recorded on the computer. Next year I might as well stay home and do the lottery

Anyone fancy having the first MJDA dance competition on the Sunday of the May Day bank holiday?