Hipsters feat. Robert Cordoba

[Lory]

Difficult choice having Hipsters regulars & lots of WCS visitors at the same time. Do you keep the visitors happy and upset the regulars, or keep the visitors happy & upset the regulars?

Finally, thank you once again for the feedback. Keep it coming. I do read it all and think about it more than you perhaps realise!

I have to admit, I'm confused. Which regulars are you trying to keep happy?

Surely the WCS's are your regulars now? (as Lily and David teach that EVERY tuesday downstairs) along with MJ taught by Nigel upstairs. Yes, I can see you still have a few lindy Hoppers who you like to accommodate but surely you have to accept that your 'regulars' have now changed?

Am I a regular?

I positively hate Rock and Roll and fast Lindy stuff but I do accept, a few people like it and you have to play 'some' I use the time to grab a drink, freshen up and chat But I don't need to freshen up every 3rd track! The smoother the better for me!

[David Franklin]

This is sort of my point; I'm dancing - my moves come one after another and fill the space available - I am not aware of every move that everyone else is doing arround me; If I am used to MJ, how am I meant to know that all their movements are between point A and B.

You can't be aware of everything, but surely if you're sending someone into a space, you should be aware of whether someone else is about to move into it?

From the previous posts, it sounds like WCS dancers expect everyone to keep their slot clear - "a bar or two" is a long time (4/4 music - 4 beats to the bar; 4-8 beats; 2-4 MJ counts): I could have done an MJ move and retracted from that space again in that time.

To a large extent, yes, that is the expectation. Part of the tradeoff of using a slot is: "In order to have enough space to move up and down the slot, I accept having to stay very close to the slot". If someone else is going "Ha! There's space in that slot I can grab!", then all you get are the bad points. It's still up to the slotted dancer to avoid the collision, but they won't appreciate your actions.

As for being able to do a MJ move and get out of the slot again in 1 bar: you must know a lot more 2 count MJ moves than I do!

In theory non-slotted is more flexible, but I see it as a bit like motorway driving. On one level, everyone should just use whatever lane they like, switching between them to optimize the flow, and going as close as possible to other cars to maximize capacity. In practice, it seems to work better (and is certainly a lot less stressful) to have rules. In particular, the car that spends all it's time going from lane to lane trying to use all available space causes a huge amount of stress for everyone around. If everyone is dancing in a slot I spend a lot less time worrying about collisions.

The main floorcraft skill of using space is identifying 'opening' spaces rather than 'closing' spaces. When I am moving out of a space, it is opening. When I am moving into a space it is closing.

But if I were to take your attitude of using space to the extreme, and jump into the space you vacated the moment you did so, I bet you would find it extremely uncomfortable, if not dangerous.

A truley 'free' space (neither opening or closing) is where most of the danger lies - anyone around it may want to take advantage of it. ~snip~ But MJ is more like a jelly and the 'circles' squish and deform to take up all the space.

But the idea is NOT to use all the space! I don't want someone using the space 2 inches from my face, no matter how good a dancer they are. It's a difficult balance - if you're too diligent in keeping a safe distance from other couples, like motorway driving, you will find people sneaking into the 'gaps' and leaving you very cramped. But on the other hand, do you really want to be the couple with lots of space because everyone around has decided "they're too dangerous to be near?".

Dave

[ChrisA]

Thanks for the feedback on the music last night everyone. Just wish you'd come to me and said it at the time, then I could do something about it on the spot.

I would find this very difficult for two reasons. Firstly, I respect the fact that the DJ is crafting his set as the night progresses, and I don't see it as my right to go and moan about one particular track that I might not like (except the Jive Aces ).

Secondly, it takes me several tracks to build up a feeling for the shape of the music on a particular night - I'm busy dancing, so it's only after several tracks that I might start to feel "wait a minute, I'm not enjoying this, and it's because of the music rather than anything else".

Difficult choice having Hipsters regulars & lots of WCS visitors at the same time. Do you keep the visitors happy and upset the regulars, or keep the visitors happy & upset the regulars?

Well I'm not convinced these are mutually exclusive. But I've spoken to several people who are both Hipsters regulars and WCS dancers at one level or another, and they seem to share my view.

But as has been said, Hipsters is now Jive and WCS as far as the teaching is concerned (and for that), not Jive and Lindy. I do think that should be reflected more in the music.

The "Jive Aces" track was a request from one of our regulars. Referring to my comment above, if you ain't happy, tell the DJ. If you want something played, tell the DJ. He might listen.

Ok, but you knew it was a crap idea to play it - you even apologised as you put it on. And god help us all if you start playing requests with any kind of frequency. I don't feel remotely competent to try and do your job at all, let alone while I'm busy concentrating on dancing, and I bet most people would be the same.

In fact, I don't want to hear my pet tracks, I want to experience the whole musical landscape over the course of the night, and that needs to be shaped by a craftsman, not hacked together by the locals

I was watching the floor the whole night & had a good floor throughout. Which is my job. It wouldn't be so crowded on the floor if I didn't. So to suggest that most people weren't happy is not a fair reflection on the evening.

Well, I didn't suggest most people weren't happy - I was speaking for myself and the few that I've spoken to.

But I think measuring success only by how many people are on the floor is a big mistake. Dancers come to dance, and mostly they'll dance even to awful stuff. Put the Mavericks on, and the floor fills. Even when Peter put that ghastly "dance" mix of Stairway to Heaven on, at Camber, people were rushing on to the floor. And why? Because it had a damn thump-thump beat.

I danced to it, in fact, but I hated it.

At risk of sounding elitist, I'll say this too:

You could achieve a packed floor by putting on pop music from one end of the night to the other... but the people there would be the ones that like a diet of pop. All the ones that love dancing to slower tracks, rich in colour and accents, would have gone elsewhere.

I reckon at Hipsters you've got one of the fussiest audiences out, and hence the most difficult job. You've given us such a lot of good stuff over the last couple of years that our expectations are very high.

So when people like me have a moan, it's because you've educated us to expect the best, and if it's only as good as it was last month, it's no longer good enough. We want you to inspire us, excite us, wrap us in velvet, tease us... reliably, every week, and for the high to get higher every time.

God knows how you (or any of the other really good DJs) do it at all, never mind most of the time. But speaking just for myself, I am finding your sets a touch samey at the moment

Finally, thank you once again for the feedback. Keep it coming. I do read it all and think about it more than you perhaps realise!

I know you do. And it's hugely appreciated, believe me

Chris

[Lory]

Firstly after rereading what I wrote, I'd like to apologise, it sounded way too harsh Chris has put it far more eloquently than I ever could. And I'd like to highlight some the points I strongly agree with!

it takes me several tracks to build up a feeling for the shape of the music on a particular night - I'm busy dancing, so it's only after several tracks that I might start to feel "wait a minute,

I want to experience a whole musical landscape over the course of the night

I reckon at Hipsters you've got one of the fussiest audiences out, and hence the most difficult job. You've given us such a lot of good stuff over the last couple of years that our expectations are very high.

So when people like me have a moan, it's because you've educated us to expect the best,

[Sheepman]

So if it's not a 'fixed slot', and it's easy to adjust to fill space, then what's the problem with other dancers using the 'opening' space you just vacated?

This is not a problem IMO, it is what you expect, what is frustrating is when the person that has moved into that space "stakes a claim there" and doesn't move out of that space again, once that happens in front of you, behind you, and to the side, then there is nowhere else to go (I mostly dance at the edge of the floor). All of this is just "stuff that happens" on the dance floor, like it or not, you have to put up with it.
My main problems on Tuesday were down to other, particularly dangerous, west coasters, (as I'm sure the Oracle will verify ), in wcs the leader tends to move around far less than most jivers. This doesn't give the leader the right to use his partner as a lethal weapon! At least with most of the jivers, I found if they moved into your space, they will soon move out of it again.
Another one that really irritates me, is when people walking past, stand and watch you going up and down the slot for a while, and then walk straight into you as they try to go past

Greg

[Zebra Woman]

Firstly after rereading what I wrote, I'd like to apologise, it sounded way too harsh Chris has put it far more eloquently than I ever could.

I agree with Lory I think my post was a little harsh too .

I'm just so fussy now

Sorry JB......BIG HUG

Alison

[Sheepman]

The class was great, although my slot became so tight at times I was getting battered trying to get through it (hence shoulder injury). I have never seen so many WCS dancers in one room, and fab dancers taking the class too.

Sorry to hear about your shoulder, and the fact that we didn't get a dance. Perhaps next time we can concentrate on measures for protection of your slot.

Greg

[Zebra Woman]

Sorry to hear about your shoulder, and the fact that we didn't get a dance. Perhaps next time we can concentrate on measures for protection of your slot.

Greg

???

[Yogi_Bear]

Never having danced WCS or played any WCS tracks it would be nice if you could share your list of tracks with us Gus.Then if the occasion ever arises....

Trev
I haven't read to the end of this thread, but I first learnt WCS to Family Affair by Mary J Blige - a good place to start.
yb

[bobgadjet]

......

PS Did anyone else find it surprising that such an accomplished, stylish WCS dancer as RC could make MJ look so awful when attempting to demonstrate how to do his West Coast moves as MJ? I mean, armjives for goodness sake

I have been to a number of lessons from RC and ALL of them have been the most informative lessons ive ever experienced.
He takes a simple move and gives it flair.

Then, to be able to give ANY attempt at showing how to put a WCS move into MJ, W E L L I admirfe him for trying.

I remember my introduction to MJ from a few years of WCS was at Ashtons, when Linda asked me to put her thru some WCS, just after my second MJ lesson.
With my brain into MJ gear I could not initially think how I should even start WCS.

So, if RC chooses to do a couple of arm jives to get into the MJ mode, No problem from my end, why the fuss.

I don't know how much WCS you have done, but try alternating from MJ to WCS in one dance, then back agin (if the trak is long enuf and the right tempo) and see how you get on.

I had a great night. It was good to see so many familiar faces, WCS & MJ, and all that WCS in one night took me back a few years.

Well done JB, but I think the general pace could have been a bit slower overall, and still pleased most of the people most of the evening.

I'm looking forward to my next visit for some more WCS, but how do we identify those eager ladies who want to give it a go?

WCS T shirts maybe ?

[Gadget]

You can't be aware of everything, but surely if you're sending someone into a space, you should be aware of whether someone else is about to move into it?

Definetly: you can only see a space and movement arround it on a moment by moment basis - if that space is being encroached on, you don't use it. Simple.

As for being able to do a MJ move and get out of the slot again in 1 bar: you must know a lot more 2 count MJ moves than I do!

moves? I doubt it - I seldom do "moves" now; I string movements together: An un-wrap into that space followed by a lead in. A side-slide into that space, then stepping out to meet the lady again. a traveling return to end the lady in that space, then turn and lead her into a cattapult exit... there are millions of extension and contraction movements that can take one bar to use, then free a space.
Dancing in a tight space is different, challenging and requires a lot more improvisation and awareness of how to chop and change moves: a move you started may have to change half way through because the space is gone, or be directed elsewhere to avoid a collission. Since WCS relies more on a string of movements {or so I am lead to beleive}, I can see how dissruption to the flow may be considered an irritant. It can be argued that since MJ involves much smaller pieces, the 'flow' is less dissrupted.

[quote]In theory non-slotted is more flexible, but I see it as a bit like motorway driving... In particular, the car that spends all it's time going from lane to lane trying to use all available space causes a huge amount of stress for everyone around. [quote]
I lke the anology, but the point of floorcraft is not that you actually use all the space, but that you are aware that it is availble to be used if you need it/want it. You don't have to weave through the traffic - the occasional smooth lane change to one that suits your speed at the time is ideal. {Why do i have this image of "froggy" for the ZX spectrum?}

But if I were to take your attitude of using space to the extreme, and jump into the space you vacated the moment you did so, I bet you would find it extremely uncomfortable, if not dangerous.

You wouldn't/shouldn't notice - I'm not talking about invasion of personal space; just using opening spaces rather than closing spaces. Making sure a 'fixed' space is not about to become a closed space before entering it.
Most times a space is 'opening', the dancer opening it will be facing away from the space. If I enter into it, I would be be paying particular attention to the dancer(s) that just vacated it; they are the most likley to attampt to re-claim it when I am using it.

But the idea is NOT to use all the space! I don't want someone using the space 2 inches from my face, no matter how good a dancer they are.

Unfortunetly, in most crowded dance floors you have to occasionally revert to 'defensive' dancing: planting the feet and holding your space - throwing your partner into spaces and retreiving them again - sliding your feet to take steps - holding your elbows out a bit further than normal - bum-nudging anyone that gets too close - ... this takes a lot of concentration, some pretty controlling leading, tense muscles, the occasional knock and is not much fun.
At one point I was beginning to have more dances like this than relaxed and enjoyable dances ; I changed venue.

[ChrisA]

....throwing your partner into spaces and retreiving them again... holding your elbows out a bit further than normal - bum-nudging anyone that gets too close ... this takes a lot of concentration, some pretty controlling leading, tense muscles, the occasional knock and is not much fun.

Yuck.

Time to get off the floor rather than subject your partner to all this - or change venues, as you say.

Chris

[bobgadjet]

planting the feet and holding your space - throwing your partner into spaces and retreiving them again - sliding your feet to take steps - holding your elbows out a bit further than normal - bum-nudging anyone that gets too close - ...

How many dance partners would you loose dancing like this ?

Actually, is that really dancing" or dancefloor warfare ?

[Whitebeard]

I positively hate Rock and Roll ...... but I do accept, a few people like it ....

And I love it. It's an age thing of course, but I can hardly believe you can't respond to its raw and relatively unprocesssed quality. So alive and immediate in contrast to the metranomic beat and digital enhancement (?) of so much moderm stuff.

If you'd just let me have a couple of R & R tracks each evening I'd be much happier. As it is, its like waiting for gold dust.

[David Franklin]

I seldom do "moves" now; I string movements together: An un-wrap into that space followed by a lead in. A side-slide into that space, then stepping out to meet the lady again. a traveling return to end the lady in that space, then turn and lead her into a cattapult exit... there are millions of extension and contraction movements that can take one bar to use, then free a space.

I hate it when someone uses this argument on me, but I bet if you actually videoed yourself, you'd find this isn't the case. Two counts is a very short time to comfortably send someone who wasn't blocking a slot into that slot and out again. You might do it once or twice, but if you were doing it all the time, I don't think it would make for a great dance. The far more usual experience is that the person grabbing the space takes several bars to relinquish it.

Since WCS relies more on a string of movements {or so I am lead to beleive}, I can see how dissruption to the flow may be considered an irritant. It can be argued that since MJ involves much smaller pieces, the 'flow' is less dissrupted.

I don't know why you believe that - I would say WCS involves smaller pieces than MJ. (WCS basics are only 3 Ceroc counts long, there are dozens of moves only 3 or 4 counts in length, and people regularly extend moves by single counts). But it's a 'new' dance over here, so 90% of WCS dancers are still beginners (me definitely included); obviously this makes a difference in the ability to chop and change when people get in the way. But the other point is that I don't want to have to chop and change - that's one of the reasons why I also dance MJ in a slot.

I lke the anology, but the point of floorcraft is not that you actually use all the space, but that you are aware that it is availble to be used if you need it/want it. You don't have to weave through the traffic - the occasional smooth lane change to one that suits your speed at the time is ideal.

That's very different from what you said earlier. The image you gave me was very much that of the guy in the sports car who spends all his time 6 inches from people's bumpers while slipping side-to-side looking for overtaking opportunities. Whereas everyone maneuvers occasionally as conditions change.

You wouldn't/shouldn't notice - I'm not talking about invasion of personal space; just using opening spaces rather than closing spaces.

I wasn't talking about personal space. For sake of argument, suppose your comfort zone is 12 inches of space. As you move forwards, I stay 12 inches behind you - is that a problem? Well, yes, because now you can't move backwards without breaking the 12 inch zone, so your options are limited. So you decide to swap places with your partner, but unfortuately my evil doppelganger is doing the same thing to her, so the space she was in has disappeared by the time you get there! You are soon reduced to playing American Football as a less extreme contact sport where at least you get to wear padding...

OK, that's an extreme, but it's certainly possible to be too aggressive in using space. Floorcraft isn't just avoiding collisions; it's avoiding getting in people's way, and, ideally, doing all this avoidance in a way that doesn't affect your partner or the other couples unduly. And I don't see there's any way of dancing across people's slots without affecting them - at the least they have to spend a lot more time watching out for you.

Unfortunetly, in most crowded dance floors you have to occasionally revert to 'defensive' dancing:
At one point I was beginning to have more dances like this than relaxed and enjoyable dances ; I changed venue.

Of course, part of floorcraft is not getting on the floor when it's too crowded - though I think most of us have sinned here from time to time!

Dave

[Gus]

Of course, part of floorcraft is not getting on the floor when it's too crowded - though I think most of us have sinned here from time to time!

And so the argument goes in its usual circle again. Floorcraft is only part of the issue ... the REAL issue is promoters 'packing them in'! Does anyone want to volunteer ANY promoter that manages numbers at their venue? Time for another 'name and shame' thread Andy?

[David Franklin]

And so the argument goes in its usual circle again. Floorcraft is only part of the issue ... the REAL issue is promoters 'packing them in'! Does anyone want to volunteer ANY promoter that manages numbers at their venue? Time for another 'name and shame' thread Andy?

Funnily enough, Franco does limit numbers for the NYE event - but on the other hand it's not cheap! As I recall, 2 years ago he asked people "What would you prefer, 250 people at £25 each or 300 at £20 each" (numbers made up but vaguely representative). The decision was to go for more space, even if it meant more expensive tickets.

Dave

[RobC]

Funnily enough, Franco does limit numbers for the NYE event - but on the other hand it's not cheap! As I recall, 2 years ago he asked people "What would you prefer, 250 people at £25 each or 300 at £20 each" (numbers made up but vaguely representative). The decision was to go for more space, even if it meant more expensive tickets.

Dave

And I for one would happily pay that extra £5 if I knew I would have room to dance (If Ceroc wasn't already running a NYE party in Bisley also limited numbers with 2 rooms, one Jive and one WCS )

[Sheepman]

Does anyone want to volunteer ANY promoter that manages numbers at their venue?

Here's one, maybe it is the only one that regulates numbers at their regular events? Jag Jive. An excellent venue, great music, great atmosphere, but after complaints that it was too busy, the organiser asked US, the dancers, what the limit on numbers should be! After a bit of experimentation it is now just right. The event sells out nearly every month, it is run for charity, and on top of all that, it is the cheapest dance night out I know, even on a Saturday night.

Greg

[djtrev]

Gus,Sheepman,Oracle-you never did give me any ideas for WCS music.Just enough to fill a cd would be more than welcome and very much appreciated.
I am always on the lookout for new music and do like to be prepared for any eventuality