Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 66

Thread: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

  1. #21
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Fife.
    Posts
    5,701
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Musicality and emotion are two entirely different concepts:

    ANyone can feel the "horn" of tracks such as Tango in Harlem, etc,etc (feel free to choose NON overplayed track from your venue) but to translate that emotion into a direct sync with the music is beyond most.

    Consider: (list not exhaustive)
    rhythm.
    Not the beat, the rhythm. Phrasings, how long is a lyric within a verse? How much "space" is within the music? How long is a verse? Chorus? Middle 8? Break?

    lyrics.
    Can you match actions to lyrics? "Stop" is an obvious one. "Get your hands down my pants" I haven't tried yet, but the day I dance with ZW WITHOUT a kilt on...
    IS one of the easiest ways to bring the "music" into your dance.

    breaks.
    Not my area of expertise, so read the words of others, but...
    If you feel a break coming, is it at the end of a big crescendo? eg rising scale in Moonflower, "U gotta get high before U taste the lows" in Let Me Entertain U, etc
    Is it a sudden break? Fever, Wade..., etc

    tempi changes/time changes/beat changes within the same tempo
    Again, very easy way to bring the music into your dance, just "feel" it and play with it.

    I think it was Magic Hans who said dance without inhibition: great advice. Yet, something so few can do. Helps no end with musicality, because the cerebral side dominates less, and the feel side plays a bigger role within your own movements.

    Is all I gotta say about that... Chocolate, anyone?!?

  2. #22
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    3,830
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    But IMO, as someone else said, musicality is instinctive. You either feel/hear it, or you don't.
    Thing is, if you'd said that to me about 18 months ago, it might have been the last straw that made me give up. Fortunately, Amir said the opposite, namely that it can be learned.

    some people can hardly keep time, let alone hear the subtleties of the music, and I doubt it can be taught.
    True. There are probably some that find it so difficult to hear that they'll never learn. But there are some people who couldn't dance on the beat at the beginning, and subsequently learned. I think Andy McG claims to be one of these - and he's pretty musical IMHO, and still getting better if Britroc was anything to go by.

    But what this says to me is that it's not something that you either have or don't have, on or off... it's a continuous spectrum of ability, like most things. Sometimes it's so extreme one way or another that it looks either totally absent on the one hand, or totally natural on the other. But I think that masks what's really going on.

    In the Amir workshop that got me started, he majored on breaks (I know that's by no means the whole story, but that was the emphasis there). To start with, no one in the class could do anything with the breaks in the track, which he'd chosen for their regularity.

    Then he got people to dance, but stop on the break wherever they were in the move. After a couple of goes, almost everyone could do that.

    Then he taught some things you can do with what he calls double and triple accents, and a little routine to string them together, hitting the breaks and the accents.

    About 60% of the class could do that after a few goes.

    Then he got people to try and freestyle those moves, not doing the routine, but trying to hit the breaks without the comfort of a known routine. Hardly anyone (including myself) could do that.

    Yet now, I can hit almost every break if I want to, even in music I don't know. I can't necessarily do anything very clever in the break, but I'm getting better, and I'm enjoying it a lot more as a result.

    I don't think I'm anything special. But I started off not hearing anything in the music (not consciously, anyway) and wondering why I got funny looks from the ladies I was dancing with when I piled right through the breaks.

    And my feeling now is, thank heavens it is learnable, and that some people can teach it

    Chris

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    bedford
    Posts
    4,899
    Rep Power
    13

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    (Never one to follow the herd) The follower follows the leader. The leader may follow the music, but, IMO, providing the leader can be followed, he does not have to. I have tried dancing with no music, and it is high in my most memorable experiences. (Almost alone on the floor as two of the first into the Ceroc Champs) I have often seen couples dancing sublimely together, but probably to a different version in their heads of the song being played. The dancer can be like an instrumentalist, jazzing it up whilst the rest of the orchestra keeps to the beat.

    I, too, am an songwriter (amateur):

    Stop the music, cos' I want to dance
    my heart beats with the rhythm of real romance
    this might be love, gotta take the chance
    stop the music, cos' I want to dance

    What you're playing sir, is just fi_i_i_ne
    but he music yours, not hers and mine ,
    so stop ...

  4. #24
    Registered User Zuhal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    South London
    Posts
    198
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    1. Huh?
    2. Damn, missed it as usual
    3. (occasionally) Oooh... why can't I do that all the time
    4. (increasingly) Oooh... that felt nice

    IChris
    I am fixed "On 2" except in Salsa when I still dance on 1

    Zuhal

  5. #25
    Registered User BeeBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Some would say on
    Posts
    248
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuhal
    I am fixed "On 2" except in Salsa when I still dance on 1

    Zuhal



    I'm kinda fixed on 2 at the moment, but I think its got a lot to do with confidence as opposed to getting the rythm and the 'feel' for the music. I can usually spot a good break or a 'pizzazzy' bit of the music (technical terms here folks), but dont know if my partner sees it coming too, and so usually just let it go Ach, it'll happen, but I want it to happen NOW!

  6. #26
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    3,830
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeBee
    I'm kinda fixed on 2 at the moment, but I think its got a lot to do with confidence as opposed to getting the rythm and the 'feel' for the music.
    Well to a large extent you're at the mercy of what the guy's leading.

    Dance with the ones that can as much as possible, or alternatively, back-lead the break.

  7. #27
    Registered User BeeBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Some would say on
    Posts
    248
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Dance with the ones that can as much as possible, or alternatively, back-lead the break.
    Yeah, started to do that, and the bossy boots in me is coming out . The shocked / confused looks on some of the guys faces that are taken a bit by surprise at being 'hijacked' is great! I think poor Baldrick is getting to the stage where he is expecting it, hee hee!

  8. #28
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    3,830
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeBee
    The shocked / confused looks on some of the guys faces that are taken a bit by surprise at being 'hijacked' is great!


    I agree now... I wouldn't have then

    But seriously, it was the first hint to me that there was stuff I wasn't doing.

    So go to it, girl

    Chris

  9. #29
    Registered User BeeBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Some would say on
    Posts
    248
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA


    I agree now... I wouldn't have then

    But seriously, it was the first hint to me that there was stuff I wasn't doing.

    So go to it, girl

    Chris

    Will do, and if I'm feeling bolshie, you guys had better brace yourselfs!

  10. #30
    Registered User Zebra Woman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    2,106
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    I think there are a number of phases to go through... some can go through them faster than others, of course, but my experience has been along the lines of:

    1. Huh?
    2. Damn, missed it as usual
    3. (occasionally) Oooh... why can't I do that all the time
    4. (increasingly) Oooh... that felt nice
    Yes, that's why I spent so much of the week in my car. I drive a hell of a long way for numbers 3 and 4

    I don't mind number 2 'cos joint recognition of a missed break can be a laugh. What drives me nuts is a whole evening of music with no breaks in it.....so no way to have fun trying to improve.

    A couple of years ago a Ceroc teacher taught musicality at Northampton. He did a very good job, it was an inspiriing class and by the end of it the room was frozen each time there was a break. It was a truly gorgeous sight.

    Unfortunately for the whole of the rest of the evening the freestyle music had pretty much no breaks so it all slipped away ...very frustrating.

    I'm not adverse to backleading a break...but I am also wary about injuring the lead if he really wasn't expecting it. .

    Very rare to be able to use the lyrics IMO but I did manage to walk my fingers up and down a man's spine during 'In these Shoes' once. Most satisfying that was.

    ZW

  11. #31
    Registered User BeeBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Some would say on
    Posts
    248
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by Zebra Woman

    I'm not adverse to backleading a break...but I am also wary about injuring the lead if he really wasn't expecting it. .
    ZW
    As I still have the old 'L' plates up, thats something I'd best bear in mind thanks!

  12. #32
    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Nottingham - for n
    Posts
    825
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Thing is, if you'd said that to me about 18 months ago, it might have been the last straw that made me give up. Fortunately, Amir said the opposite, namely that it can be learned.


    Agreed.
    a) What is it about Cubans, Africans, Brazilians (etc), that they move so wonderfully to music?
    b) Can Brits, Irish, Scots get doomed to be always one step behind?

    Maybe genetics plays a small or a major part. I choose to believe that culture does. Had I been moving my body to music since age 18 months, and watching others around me doing the same, I'd look like a natural after 15 or so years, and would never have had any pangs of self-consiousness (at a guess)

    As it happens, I started learning all that stuff when I was 25 .... not the ideal age for learning ... so maybe I can reach the peaks .... not easy though, so yes, I do believe that culturally we'll struggle to be any less than one step behind.

    Ian

  13. #33
    The Dashing Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Midlands
    Posts
    3,556
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    1. Huh?
    2. Damn, missed it as usual
    3. (occasionally) Oooh... why can't I do that all the time
    4. (increasingly) Oooh... that felt nice
    I'm at about 2.01 on Chris's scale
    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    I don't know who I'm agreeing with, or disagreeing with )

    But IMO, as someone else said, musicality is instinctive. You either feel/hear it, or you don't. ~SNIP~ BUT I do think there's a case for teaching people who DO have an appreciation of music and musicality already, what options they have i.e. moves, breaks, half time etc. to be able to interpret it!
    I don't know whether or not musicality itself can be learned. But I'm pretty sure you can have natural musicality and still not be able to translate into dancing. It's that translation that I can't do reliably. Even when if it does happen I'm pretty sure my conscious mind doesn't do all the work (probably true for leading in general I think).

    I'd definitely go to more musicality workshops if I get the chance - I'd love to be able to do this well. Maybe even at 2.5

    BTW - a thought for all the backleading followers. IMO, not everyone hears the same things in the same piece of music - you may be listening to the bass line whereas the leader may be listening to the piano harmony. And you don't have to stop dead on every break...
    Love dance, will travel

  14. #34
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    2,041
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Thing is, if you'd said that to me about 18 months ago, it might have been the last straw that made me give up. Fortunately, Amir said the opposite, namely that it can be learned. ...........

    And my feeling now is, thank heavens it is learnable, and that some people can teach it

    Chris
    And in my view, Amir sure is someone who can teach it. I attended a very similar workshop to the one described by ChrisA and it stands out as the most stimulating and enlightening one I've ever attended. And so simple, too -he got us listening to music and building on what most people already knew to analyse what we were hearing. All he did was get people to clap their hands and signal when they heard various features of the music but it was incredibly effective as a way of making people understand what they were listening to.
    But if this basic exercise was carried out as part of weeknight classes I wonder what the "This is a waste of bl**dy time" brigade would say? Sorry, moaning again. So who's willing to try it first?

  15. #35
    Registered User jockey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    316
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Another good topic, Andy and, for once, I agree with your position which I am going to paraphrase as: jiving without reference to the content of the music, however well executed, lacks what should be the whole object of the exercise, namely, PERFORMING A DANCE ROUTINE to that music.
    There are a number of techniques helpful in achieving the objective in freestyle: facial expressions, dancing breaks, tempo changes, slides, drops (crescendo bits), choice of move, body rolling etc.
    However your argument (and mine) points to a rather different emphasis and subsequent practice that you don't exploit - namely the great importance and value of choreography (over freestyle) viz., if musicality is the overriding aim then seek the form of dancing that best achieves it - a choreographed routine rehearsed in private and later performed in public wherein each move is painstakingly chosen and (usually) exhaustively practised.

    The thrust in the discussion so far has been: musicality IS of overriding importance so how can we improve our freestyling to take this into account (and how can we teachers teach the 'ineffable?)?

    Now I happened to bump into Roger Chinn's ex-partner in a shopping centre in Wimbledon 2 years ago and we fell into talking about competitions and, more precisely, what each judge is looking for (they each have an emphasis, she told me).'Mine is choreography', she explained, ' I'd rather a couple (in a freestyle competition) make mistakes than perform a choreographed sequences'. 'In fact, she continued, 'mistakes are proof of freestyling'.

    So we have arrived via the idea of musicality at a curious position: on the one hand we desire musicality but choreography is the best means of achieving it yet choreography is banned in the epitome of performance excellence - freestyle competitions. Is this what a philosopher such as Jonathon Miller would call a paradox? Or is that the name of those dodgy novels by the yank Henry Miller.

    Help me Toby one (get out the dictionary)...

  16. #36
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    3,426
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by jockey
    There are a number of techniques helpful in achieving the objective in freestyle: facial expressions, dancing breaks, tempo changes, slides, drops (crescendo bits), choice of move, body rolling etc.
    However your argument (and mine) points to a rather different emphasis and subsequent practice that you don't exploit - namely the great importance and value of choreography (over freestyle) viz., if musicality is the overriding aim then seek the form of dancing that best achieves it - a choreographed routine rehearsed in private and later performed in public wherein each move is painstakingly chosen and (usually) exhaustively practised.
    On one level, you're absolutely right. But then, we've rehashed the "a live band will never sound as good as the CD recording" argument, and people still like the spontaneity of live bands. I think there is something similar about freestyle. (And anyone who has done a routine will tell you that by default, the dancing in the routine will look worse, not better than freestyle dancing - there quite a lot of work to stop it looking like "just going through the motions").

    The other issue is that even if we accept that the ultimate in musicality will come from a choreographed routine, there is still a lot of interest in how well people can do in freestyle - if for no other reason than that's what we do 99.99% of the time. Freestyle is definitely the harder test; not only do you have to think quickly, but you have to communicate your decisions between each other - an extreme test of lead and follow. [I know for me, what I can lead is usually the limiting factor, not what I can find in the music].

    On the other hand, I think it is very useful to do a choreographed routine - it's interesting to see what interpretation you can come up with given enough time. And hopefully some of those ideas will be applicable to your freestyle dancing as well. The other thing I think people will find out is that it's much harder than it looks. I know extremely accomplished dancers who have set out to do a showcase, and in every case, they've been amazed how much work it is.

    So we have arrived via the idea of musicality at a curious position: on the one hand we desire musicality but choreography is the best means of achieving it yet choreography is banned in the epitome of performance excellence - freestyle competitions. Is this what a philosopher such as Jonathon Miller would call a paradox?
    No, because in fact, most would say the spotlight (choreographed routines) category is the epitome of performance excellence. That is usually what the rules imply - they nearly always emphasize performance. And in fact, the prize money for spotlight is usually the greatest as well, so it's hardly a poor cousin to the freestyle competition.

    I think the truth in all of this is that we want it all. We want couples to display fantastic technique and dynamic musicality, all choreographed on the fly to music they've never heard. We're probably never going see that achieved - the interest is in how close people can get.

    Dave

  17. #37
    Registered User Daisy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    AUSTRALIA
    Posts
    397
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Franklin
    I think the truth in all of this is that we want it all. We want couples to display fantastic technique and dynamic musicality, all choreographed on the fly to music they've never heard. We're probably never going see that achieved - the interest is in how close people can get.

    Dave
    Isn't Stewert38 going to show us?

  18. #38
    Commercial Operator
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    ascot
    Posts
    815
    Rep Power
    11

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by Daisy
    Isn't Stewert38 going to show us?


    you got me

  19. #39
    Registered User jockey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    316
    Rep Power
    10

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    Maybe quite a few of the teachers haven't been taught it, or taught how to teach it? Maybe things need to go back to that level, a couple of 'teachers training' type workshops that focus on how to teach musicality and how much to teach at each level.
    It has just occurred to me that just as musicality is not taught neither is freestyling. If a routine is to be defined as a sequence of moves danced to a track nobody teaches that unless its a choreographed performance (opposite of freestyle). Haven't we aquired freestyling ability, like musicality, on our own? Has it not been up to the leaders to select and improvise moves as we go along and find ways it can all hang together?

  20. #40
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Belfast
    Posts
    8,925
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: Musicality - The Difference it Makes

    Been thinking about this some more. I realised that I did a lot of the MI stuff when just 'dancing' ie at parties etc before I discovered MJ. Lots of different things that fitted the music. I don't do it much in MJ, I think maybe because a) I'm still concentrating so much on following & b) its one thing being more 'interpretative' when you are just dancing for yourself, I'm maybe a bit shy when dancing with a someone else! I really love dancing with a lead who is listening to the music and dancing with musicality.

    Anyway, that also got me thinking about the 'teaching' aspect. IMO MI or musicality (is there a difference?) is partly something that can be taught and partly an individual interpretation to a piece of music. A bit like style maybe? I think its also like music itself, some people are naturally musical, but they still need to be taught the principles. But also someone who can't 'play by ear' can still learn to play music. Musicality will come easier to some than others but most people can develop or improve what level they have. I think there are some basics for how to respond to music and I think these should be taught, in bite size pieces, sometimes on a class night, with workshops for those who want to dig a bit deeper. Sometimes even just telling people that there is a difference between 'dancing doing moves following the beat' and 'dancing listening to the music' can get them thinking - and listening!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Muggles and musicality
    By MartinHarper in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 22nd-September-2006, 12:33 PM
  2. Too much musicality?
    By MartinHarper in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 7th-July-2006, 03:31 PM
  3. Musicality: What is it to you?
    By Sheepman in forum Let's talk about dance
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 16th-February-2005, 11:04 PM
  4. Awesome Musicality
    By Sarah B in forum Social events
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 13th-October-2003, 02:06 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •