Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

[MartinHarper]

Locally, there are a variety of venues, hosting a variety of forms of dance.
At some venues, it's essentially impossible for someone new to go there, sit on the sidelines, and never get asked to dance.
At other venues, this is entirely possible, and indeed almost routine.

Locally, folks call the first type of venue "friendly", and the second type of venue "cliquey". Those folks who prefer the "friendly" type of venue choose where to dance accordingly. This seems entirely sensible to me.

[bigdjiver]

...There's nothing in choosing one venue over another that's elitist - anyone can choose the same venues if they want.

If I find myself arguing with a rock, I cannot blame the rock.

In my book if someone deliberately passes their local venue to go to another because it is occupied by a better class of dancer, that is an elitist - with no hint of condemnation - action. Anybody is free to make that choice. I have done it.

It is very rare for a know- nothing beginner to go anywhere but their nearest known venue, or one frequented by a friend.

There may be just as many, or even a few more, beginners at the "elite" venue, but the ratio gods to "uninspiring" is far higher. Once again you are making a totally fraudulent argument.

I first went to Hipsters when I found Nigel's class really difficult, and if I absorbed 5% of what Amir taught I came away feeling a real sense of achievement. No one made me feel unwelcome at any time, although when I crashed obliviously through the breaks I got some funny looks.

which should be the newcomer reception everywhere.

The only difference between me and the beginners that you were referring to is that I didn't sit on the sidelines - I got off my backside and got stuck in.

Once again you misrepresent my posting. Those beginners were all ladies. Those ladies were looking at three ladies who had done it before that were standing there "gagging for it", but unasked, with all the available men, except me, obviously preferring to be sitting down chatting. I, of course, did not wait to be asked.

Making snide comments like this is approaching my definition of 'nasty'. I note that you resorted to a snide remark rather than actually answering the question.

Now I am getting a lecture on "snide" from someone who calls other dancers "uninspiring". I bow to your expertise. (I can do snide )

Can you not countenance the possibility that people less altruistic than yourself could get bored dancing exclusively with people that grip, yank, bounce, treat the music like a metronome, fail to follow (or lead, obviously), and aren't interested in that appallingly elitist pursuit, getting better at their dancing?

I know it. That is why I try to persuade not to grip, yank or fail to follow. I try to help them be less boring. If they are not interested in getting better I do not ask them.

What is so awful about the possibility of going somewhere else, discovering lots of cool new things, a fresh inspiration and enthusiasm,

Nothing at all, people should, and will do this. I have never said that they should not.

and then coming back reinvigorated and being much more of a pleasure to dance with than one was before?

they are not quite so good at coming back though ... Why should they? The scene is better where they are. There is no civil obligation to be altruistic, or to do anything but enjoy yourself to the max.

The point I am making is that this perfectly natural and acceptable behaviour has the effect of concentrating talent, which drives the standards at the top to ever higher levels, but may be depriving the roots.

So not only have these people spent huge amounts of time, money and effort getting to where they are, and retain a care for those coming up behind, but you expect them to seek you out as well?

No. More misrepresentation.

That's not reasonable in the world I inhabit - if I want help from the elite, and they're prepared to give it, I go to them; I don't expect them to hang out where I am.[/

A few lines ago you had the elite returing to their roots bearing their bounty.

A fact of life is that people have a better time if they go out and get what they want rather than hoping it will come to them.

I have never said different.

Modern Jive is no exception. Those who fail to recognise this and act on it will always be amongst the wallflowers, whinging about how no one ever asks them to dance and how elitist and cliquey it all is.

Those that do not recognise it will be amongst the first-timers.

Sad really, they'd have such a better time if they just dived in.

With me they get pushed in. Some of them appear to have a better time.

For the confused: I want as many people as possible to share our joy. I believe that the Ceroc Model, where people go on workshops and breaks to improve, yet, hopefully, still dance at their local venues is the one that will see MJ continue to prosper and grow. Hopefully our teachers will also seek out the tuition of the best and bring it back to our local venues.
Super-venues will arise naturally, and will bring some obvious immediate benefits to the scene, but I believe that any trend in this direction will, in the long run, damage the future of the dance as a whole. Mummy tree grows and deprives her babies of water and sunlight.
I think that ballroom went through this process, and possibly line-dance has, a boom, and then decline, scenario.

I not responding to any more of ChrisA's posts. If anybody wants to believe his versions of my opinions, rather than what I have written, so be it. If I argue with a rock, I cannot blame the rock.

[ChrisA]

I not responding to any more of ChrisA's posts.

I'm delighted to hear this. Just because you don't agree with my arguments, you've become progressively more and more insulting, accusing me of a closed mentality (the rock analogy), and using words like 'fraudulent', and 'misrepresent'. It may be that I've misunderstood your arguments, but I have certainly not intentionally misrepresented them, and I have not insulted you, nor resorted to cheap snide shots.

I was certainly not being snide when I referred to people that bounce, grip, yank, etc, as uninspiring. If you don't like dancing like that, I defy anyone to find dancing with such people inspiring.

I suppose I wouldn't be the first one with whom you've indulged in progressively angrier debate, where you constantly throw around accusations of misrepresentation when you don't like people's responses.

Maybe you're the one misrepresenting your own arguments, if they're so easily misunderstood.

Anyway, in case you change your mind, and return to the debate:

You've failed to explain why

if someone deliberately passes their local venue to go to another because it is occupied by a better class of dancer, that is an elitist action.

Even by the definition you cited:

elitism: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority

I can't see why going to one venue rather than another is elitist - anyone is free to go to the same venues.

they are not quite so good at coming back though ... Why should they? The scene is better where they are. There is no civil obligation to be altruistic, or to do anything but enjoy yourself to the max.

But this is simply wrong.

The people we're talking about here dance a lot more often than average. They go to the venues that tend to have a higher proportion of good dancers as well as the ones that don't - certainly around London, anyway, which is mostly what I know about.

So there is no concentration of talent depriving the roots.

For the confused: I want as many people as possible to share our joy. I believe that the Ceroc Model, where people go on workshops and breaks to improve, yet, hopefully, still dance at their local venues is the one that will see MJ continue to prosper and grow. Hopefully our teachers will also seek out the tuition of the best and bring it back to our local venues.

Well this is a lovely ideal. But as Dave F has pointed out, if any venues have historically been elitist (maybe things are changing), it's been the local ones:

In fact, I see almost the complete opposite - go to the 'elite' venues, and people will actually teach you the 'secret stuff' - you know, like frame, connection, musicality, how to move well, or do drops and lifts properly. Go to your typical MJ venue, and you have a few people who can do these things well and everyone else wondering "how do they know how to do that when it's never taught?".

Super-venues will arise naturally, and will bring some obvious immediate benefits to the scene, but I believe that any trend in this direction will, in the long run, damage the future of the dance as a whole. Mummy tree grows and deprives her babies of water and sunlight.

I even agree with you that theoretically there is a risk of this, but in practice, I see no evidence of it happening, and emphasising the theoretical risk creates fears where there should be none.

Even Hipsters, which a year ago might have fitted your definition of a super-venue, seems to be in something of a decline at the moment. Numbers on Tuesdays are well down, and even Nigel's class that used to pack out the hall was very small on Tuesday.

Ironically, someone suggested to me that it's the ballroom and latin teaching at Ashtons (a Ceroc venue) that is sucking people away from Hipsters... I don't know if that's true, but it would be very funny if it were.

I think that ballroom went through this process, and possibly line-dance has, a boom, and then decline, scenario.

I think it's far too superficial to blame these declines on a concentration of good dancers depriving the roots. I can't speak for Line Dancing - Bob's comment was that the beginners class was just too difficult to attract new blood, which sounds like an error of local judgement rather than a policy of elitism.

And ballroom is less popular amongst the young these days mostly because the music is so old-fashioned, and the dancers are perceived to be so too (and even older than the typical MJ crowd), so the pool of new blood that would still be interested in ballroom is intrinsically smaller. Strictly Come Dancing my yet change that, of course.

If anything causes a long term decline in MJ it won't be a concentration of good dancers somewhere other than the local venues - it'll be the same sort of thing as in Ballroom. Already, the very best and most interpretable music for MJ is often not the current chart stuff, and the slower R&B that is so prevalent at the moment is not very suitable for MJ.

Enter WCS, stage left... Cat's class on Tuesday was pretty packed In fact, on numbers alone, she should have had the upper hall and Nigel the lower one. How things change, huh?

[MartinHarper]

Using words like 'fraudulent', and 'misrepresent'

I think your occupation of the moral high ground here would be more successful if you hadn't used words like 'snide' and 'nasty' earlier in the thread.

[ChrisA]

I think your occupation of the moral high ground here would be more successful if you hadn't used words like 'snide' and 'nasty' earlier in the thread.

I'm not trying to occupy any moral high ground. I'm just trying to participate in a debate, concentrating on the issues without nastiness. If I think someone is resorting to snide comments and cheap shots then I may draw attention to it. I've been accused of being a rock, making fraudulent (ie intentional) misrepresentations of what has been posted, and been accused of being snide when I was just describing some dances.

It's surely not that surprising that I make a comment.

I'd prefer to continue the debate, and get to the bottom of all these accusations of elitism, than indulge in nastiness.

But if people resort to insults when they're failing to get their point across, then that's something outside my control.

[David Franklin]

Apperance and perception. ~snip~ A new person on the scene looks over and sees a gaggle of good dancers all talking to each other and dancing with each other. To them, this may appear as elitist.

But this is very different from what you said before, when you said the intent was to dance exclusively with other elite dancers. What you describe above can be a problem - but as you say, it's more one of perception rather than reality. In fact a difference I see in the 'elite' venues is that a lot more of the regulars are able and ready to help newcomers (because the %age of taxis/teachers is so high).

As for cliques - most every venue you go to has cliques - when I went back to my regular Ceroc venue after a year or two, it felt very cliquey too. But I don't think that's the same thing as elitism at all - it's just social networking in action...

I think there is a legitimate concern that the elites will end up completely deserting the normal MJ nights,

Why? Is there less 'stimulation' for them? are they getting 'board' with teaching the same things again and again to the next set of newcomers?

No, you misunderstood me here. Simply put, if they are at an 'elite' venue, they are obviously NOT at a 'normal' venue (barring quantum effects, anyhow ). This probably isn't a good thing for the normal venue.

[Feelingpink]

Rules for the Really Good (RG)

1. Thou must not gather with other RG dancers on the sidelines, turning one's back on the dance floor, because this could be seen to be elitist.

2. Thou must go to all venues, no matter the quality of dance.

3. Thou must not dance with other RG dancers, because this could be seen to be elitist. Instead, thou must only dance with non-RG dancers.

4. Thou must not be on the Ceroc Scotland website, because this could seen to be type of club and therefore elitist.

5. If thou insists on trying to improve thy dancing, this shall be done in secret so that no non-RG dancers could feel excluded or inferior.



Rules for All Others (AO)

1. Thou shall sit on one's backside and wait for the rest of the world come to you, because it really does owe you a living/er, I mean an MJ heritage.

[David Franklin]

Rules for the Really Good (RG)

1. Thou must not gather with other RG dancers on the sidelines, turning one's back on the dance floor, because this could be seen to be elitist.

2. Thou must go to all venues, no matter the quality of dance.

3. Thou must not dance with other RG dancers, because this could be seen to be elitist. Instead, thou must only dance with non-RG dancers.

4. Thou must not be on the Ceroc Scotland website, because this could seen to be type of club and therefore elitist.

5. If thou insists on trying to improve thy dancing, this shall be done in secret so that no non-RG dancers could feel excluded or inferior.

You forgot:

6. If thou insists on trying to improve thy dancing, this shall be not be done in secret, because secret dancing practice is elitist.

{All RG dancers disappear in a puff of logic}

[Yliander]

Rules for the Really Good (RG)

1. Thou must not gather with other RG dancers on the sidelines, turning one's back on the dance floor, because this could be seen to be elitist.

2. Thou must go to all venues, no matter the quality of dance.

3. Thou must not dance with other RG dancers, because this could be seen to be elitist. Instead, thou must only dance with non-RG dancers.

4. Thou must not be on the Ceroc Scotland website, because this could seen to be type of club and therefore elitist.

5. If thou insists on trying to improve thy dancing, this shall be done in secret so that no non-RG dancers could feel excluded or inferior.



Rules for All Others (AO)

1. Thou shall sit on one's backside and wait for the rest of the world come to you, because it really does owe you a living/er, I mean an MJ heritage.

very clever

[Gadget]

But this is very different from what you said before, when you said the intent was to dance exclusively with other elite dancers.

From an outside view, "intent" and "perceived intent" are one in the same. If the "elite" dancer {I still dislike that term} does nothing to remove this perception (or worse, does something that looks to confirm it), then everyone else within that 'clique' is tarred with the same brush - rightly or wrongly.

No, you misunderstood me here. Simply put, if they are at an 'elite' venue, they are obviously NOT at a 'normal' venue (barring quantum effects, anyhow ). This probably isn't a good thing for the normal venue.

You miss understand me {}: why would they want to be at an 'elite' venue instead of bringing their local venue up to 'elite' status? What drives them away? And if they are of the "eliteism" elite, then it could be considered a good thing for the normal venue.

[MartinHarper]

There's a conflation in this thread between observation/reflection, and judgement/regulation.

Whilst all my local venues have some degree of cliquey-ness, some are more cliquey than others, for various reasons. That's an observation. I can reflect on the effects of that - some folks choose which venue to visit partly on that basis.

This does not mean that I wish to embark on a great moral crusade against hotshots. This does not mean that I believe that the denizens of more cliquey venues are evil, nasty, sinful, or whatever. This does not mean that I'll be campaigning for a law against black and white shoes. It's just an observation.

[Zebra Woman]

7. Thou must dance to all music, even 'Call On Me' and look exceedingly happy at all times.

[Andy McGregor]

It's nice to see an agument of the Forum that I'm not part of

[ChrisA]

It's nice to see an argument of the Forum that I'm not part of

Agreed

[TheTramp]

It's nice to see an agument of the Forum that I'm not part of

Oh god. Am I the only one who felt a 'yet' at the end of that statement??

[ChrisA]

Oh god. Am I the only one who felt a 'yet' at the end of that statement??

Nope.

It's why my post above was so short... I clicked 'submit' and ran for cover. Is it safe to come out yet?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Nope.

It's why my post above was so short... I clicked 'submit' and ran for cover. Is it safe to come out yet?

Defnitely not. We'll let you know when the danger's passed.

[Clive Long]

Nope.

It's why my post above was so short... I clicked 'submit' and ran for cover. Is it safe to come out yet?

Defnitely not. We'll let you know when the danger's passed.

He may be gone some time ...

[bigdjiver]

...As for cliques - most every venue you go to has cliques - when I went back to my regular Ceroc venue after a year or two, it felt very cliquey too. But I don't think that's the same thing as elitism at all - it's just social networking in action...

I agree, this is all normal behaviour. I was going to use the phrase "social dynamics" way back. It is only an immediate problem for the beginners and the venue managers. This may be a case where "rearranging the deckchairs" is actually good management. I am interested in all this stuff. I travelled a long way to go to a struggling venue after hearing "it's the teacher .. No, its the DJ, .. no, its because they don't have a bar..."

The first time I went the teaching was good, the DJ was good, and I have been to packed venues without a bar, so I figured - "None of the above." The atmosphere was dire. The small attendance was spread widely around the room in small huddles.

Full of myself I went back next week and suggested that the problem was the seating layout, and suggested that they rearranged the seating so that they all had to huddle together. I was told that they had thought of that, and that had the first week of trying a new layout with just that aim in mind. However, instead of joining the designed area, the attendees had all opted to find their own space and spread out even further, with worse results.

Anyhow, there had not been time to change tha area again, so we were into week 2 of it. They had also bought some new coloured uplighters and spread them around the walls of the hall.

The transformation was astounding. The attendees had learned that spreading out even more was not good, and this time they congregated as planned. The night went with a real zing.

If cliques are a problem, I suggest managers find an excuse for removing some of the seating, perhaps just for one week. It takes boldness, (insensitivity?) to break into an isolated sitting group to ask for a dance. However, if you are standing next to someone at a social event it is impolite not to interact socially, and what more natural interaction than to ask for a dance.

[David Bailey]

If cliques are a problem, I suggest managers find an excuse for removing some of the seating, perhaps just for one week.

Excellent comments, that's clarified things for me, thanks. I never thought about it much, but the arrangement of seating at venues does have a profound impact on the atmosphere.
I used to say I preferred venues with tables and seats, so I could sit down and chat to people. But looking at it now, I think I really didn't - the amount of time I spend sitting down and chatting is pretty low... Having said that, I'm still not a fan of the "school disco" seating-around-the-edge arrangements - I want space around the edge of the floor that I can move around, rather than tripping up over everyone's feet...