......Originally Posted by Clive Long
Well said.
Very off-putting as you walk towards them and they reach for the gorgeous young thing who was standing just behind youOriginally Posted by Little Monkey
Daisy
(A Put-Out Little Flower)
......Originally Posted by Clive Long
Well said.
Originally Posted by ChrisAAbsolutely.Originally Posted by DavidJames
What I meant was, whether someone is all those nasty things is nothing to do with whether they're a good dancer or not. It's to do with whether they're sneering, arrogant, thoughtless and uncaring.
There are good dancers that are like this, and ones that aren't. There are also people like this that aren't good dancers.
I just wish people would stop associating being nasty with being a good dancer (usually in the context of bemoaning a perception of elitism), because the two are not connected.
*waves magic wand*Originally Posted by ChrisA
Behold, your wish has been granted.
(always easiest to grant wishes that are already true)
I cannot think of a single MJ dancer that I would think of as "Nasty". People naturally gather in peer groups, and those peer groups are often based on ability and common beliefs. Elitism is built into all of us to some degree. It is not something we recognise in ourselves, but easily identify in others. To drive past one venue to another because the dancers are better there is a degree of elitism. It is also perfectly natural, and no reason to be condemned in any way. Perhaps we gather in a corner with all of our old friends, but to a newcomer it looks like a herd of the elite gathered together for protection. We may not feel the psychological barrier, but the outsider does.
Someone once said to me that they found that my regular venue was cliquy, an accusation that I vigorously denied. However, I went back next week with new eyes, and realised that the open friendly place that I had know from its inception had indeed grown that way. There was still the "will dance with anybody that asks" ethos in place, but, the psychological barriers and zones could easily be identified. Since that time I have made a point of asking newcomers for a dance. That led me to the discovery that there were such things as touring cliques, or elites, or just groups of friends dancing somewhere different together. Whatever the name applied, the behaviour, the results, and the feelings for the "outsider" are the same.
Well turning a dance down with an obvious sneer, having done the 'looked them up and down' thing, is behaviour that I would describe as nasty. I don't think it's as common as some would have you believe, and of course I'm not saying anything about whether a person that exhibits such behaviour is a nasty person in general. But I, and quite a few people that I know have experienced it occasionally - it is certainly real.Originally Posted by bigdjiver
This is such a broad definition, though, that I think it's completely unhelpful.To drive past one venue to another because the dancers are better there is a degree of elitism.
I'm sure Gadget's not alone in his association of negative connotations with anything with 'elite' in it (well, almost anything ), so there's no point in labelling such a wide range of activity as such.
Is it helpful to the MJ world for someone to get so fed up with all the dreadful music and uninspiring dancers at one venue that they give up completely? When they might have been re-inspired by going somewhere else for a while, mixing with better dancers and then being in a position to go back and give something back?
Elitism, as Clive said, is when the elite put obstacles in the way of others entering their world, and with MJ, the reverse is true: the so-called 'elite' are generally bending over backwards to encourage, coach, teach, dance with, and generally help lesser mortals improve and in time, become just as good - and long may that ethos continue.
However, we have to be prepared to work at it to get the attention. And if working at it means making an effort to ask people to dance at a new venue that we go to, being sociable and interested in others, and generally being appealing to dance with, then that's what we should do.
Of course it's nice to ask newcomers to dance, and make them feel welcome. But they have no right to judge whether, for example, a venue is cliquey or not, if all they do is sit on the sidelines waiting for a regular to ask them.
Off the top of my head, I can, unfortunately, think of several. People are people, and sometimes you get nasty ones. I'd still maintain that it's very rare to find a really good dancer who is also nasty, but not alas impossible.Originally Posted by bigdjiver
to your points about clique-y-ness, it's sometimes a function of perspective. If you're in a clique, you don't think it's cliquey
Yes, I never thought of it that way, it's all these elitist Hipster dancers, I blame the parents myselfOriginally Posted by bigdjiver
Actually, they do. In fact, not only do they have the right to form an opinion about my actions, they even have a right to express that opinion to other people.Originally Posted by ChrisA
Well Ok, conceded.Originally Posted by MartinHarper
In the sense that everyone has a right to form an opinion about anything at all, no matter how unreasonable, and express it to other people, of course you are right.
< sigh >
But it doesn't make it a sensible course of action for someone to go to a venue, expect others to make all the effort, and then go away thinking that it's cliquey.
I think that's a little strong... In fact, newcomers, coming with an unbiased viewpoint, could even be the best people to judge the atmosphere at a place - people who've been going for a while will have their own prejudices and experience, and may not have such an objective viewpoint. The only caveat I'd add is that if they're total novices, they may have different expectations of a venue (i.e. they could find all venues cliquey).Originally Posted by ChrisA
I take that point completely.Originally Posted by DavidJames
But I think for a newcomer to be able to make any kind of a reasonable assessment, they would have to actually participate.
For example, do the class(es), ask people to dance, maybe say Hi to people not dancing, maybe talk to the DJ, dance with the teacher, etc, etc.
If all that happened was that they sat at the side and watched, I can't see how they'd form a balanced impression.
Originally Posted by ChrisA
I agree. For a start they would not be able to easily tell what kind of relationships existed, in the sense of how well each individual knew the others, and how friendly/warm each relationship was. People agreeing to dance without words being exchanged could indicate a very distant relationship but it could also mean a very close one.
e.g. (God that """""" has taken the skin off my ankle, and here's another hopeful ... "Sorry, not at the moment" .. I wonder if its bleeding ...) n one side of the mirror we see a vision of incomparable beauty, from the other side it looks like dirty brown paint. I do not know anybody that is deliberately nasty to anybody asking for a dance. (don't want to, either)Originally Posted by ChrisA
The Oxford Dictionary failed to impress you, lets try www.dictionary.comThis is such a broad definition, though, that I think it's completely unhelpful.
Elite: The best or most skilled members of a group.
elitism: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
Is it helpful to the MJ world for someone to get so fed up with all the dreadful music and uninspiring dancers at one venue that they give up completely?I have come amongst you "uninspiring dancers" ... Naaah that's not elitist, that's generousity.When they might have been re-inspired by going somewhere else for a while, mixing with better dancers and then being in a position to go back and give something back?
What inspires me is to see a beginner, rigid with seld-doubt and depreceation get up the fifth time of asking, and dance. To see people of all ages, shapes and sizes, that could not do it, but now can. I do not think I know any uninspiring dancers, either. (but, boy, are there degrees of inspiration ...)
some people consider 50 miles an obstacle.Elitism, as Clive said, is when the elite put obstacles in the way of others entering their world,
but do not necessarily look for them at your local venue.with MJ, the reverse is true: the so-called 'elite' are generally bending over backwards to encourage, coach, teach, dance with, and generally help lesser mortals improveI doubt they are going to stand still while the rest of us catch up.and in time, become just as good
I have no doubt that it will.- and long may that ethos continue...
Last night I went to an unfamiliar venue (not Ceroc) There was a row of 6 beginner ladies sitting along one wall, abandoned there after the beginner revision. From their viewpoint they could see some couples dancing, three ladies standing hopefully, and assorted huddles around the room, backs outwards, deep in conversation. That was the pattern for the whole of the freestyle. I would not, and did not, even try enter one of those huddles myself. It would have seemed like rudeness to me.Of course it's nice to ask newcomers to dance, and make them feel welcome. But they have no right to judge whether, for example, a venue is cliquey or not, if all they do is sit on the sidelines waiting for a regular to ask them.
I suspect as a beginner lady I would have just watched a while, then gone home. In the place of Miss Rigidity I doubt I would have returned. From their view, and mine, I would diagnose "cliquy". I do not think that anybody else but me asked any of them to dance, though Miss rigidity and another got up and practised the routine together near the end.
I'm not disputing this definition. I'm disputing your assertion that choosing to go somewhere where the dancers are better fits it. There's nothing in choosing one venue over another that's elitist - anyone can choose the same venues if they want.The Oxford Dictionary failed to impress you, lets try www.dictionary.com
elitism: The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
I first went to Hipsters when I found Nigel's class really difficult, and if I absorbed 5% of what Amir taught I came away feeling a real sense of achievement. No one made me feel unwelcome at any time, although when I crashed obliviously through the breaks I got some funny looks.
The only difference between me and the beginners that you were referring to is that I didn't sit on the sidelines - I got off my backside and got stuck in. It's that that brings about the acceptance that you seem to imply is so lacking wherever anyone is concerned to take the dance seriously.
Originally Posted by ChrisAMaking snide comments like this is approaching my definition of 'nasty'. I note that you resorted to a snide remark rather than actually answering the question.Originally Posted by bigdjiver
Can you not countenance the possibility that people less altruistic than yourself could get bored dancing exclusively with people that grip, yank, bounce, treat the music like a metronome, fail to follow (or lead, obviously), and aren't interested in that appallingly elitist pursuit, getting better at their dancing?
What is so awful about the possibility of going somewhere else, discovering lots of cool new things, a fresh inspiration and enthusiasm, and then coming back reinvigorated and being much more of a pleasure to dance with than one was before?
Originally Posted by ChrisASo not only have these people spent huge amounts of time, money and effort getting to where they are, and retain a care for those coming up behind, but you expect them to seek you out as well?Originally Posted by BigD
That's not reasonable in the world I inhabit - if I want help from the elite, and they're prepared to give it, I go to them; I don't expect them to hang out where I am.
A fact of life is that people have a better time if they go out and get what they want rather than hoping it will come to them.
Modern Jive is no exception. Those who fail to recognise this and act on it will always be amongst the wallflowers, whinging about how no one ever asks them to dance and how elitist and cliquey it all is.
Sad really, they'd have such a better time if they just dived in.
That's good that you haven't ever come across a dancer with a bad attitude, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I don't think this is about refusing a dance, everyone has times when they do that, and shouldn't be judged on the reasons given. Its the attitude that some can have when refusing that is the 'nasty' part. I can recall shortly after moving up to an improvers class (not MJ) I was having a bit of difficulty getting a move right. My partner was scowling, looked fed up with me - I wasn't going to take it personally, till I saw his reaction with the next girl in the rotation (who got the move right), smiles, enjoying himself. I know that's a class situation, not freestyle, but it was that look of 'you're not good enough for me to dance with' that does happen - not just perception, not a 'clique' (which can just be a group of friends) - but that interaction between two people when one person turns down a dance with a sneering attitude.Originally Posted by bigdjiver
Fortunately its rather rare!
It is not the fact that there is a choice that (could) make the decision "elitist", but the mentality behind the choice. The self-justification used in deciding that you will travel 50 miles, to attend a venue that differs only in the people attending it to the one that's 5 miles away. If it's to be part of a small group that does not dance with anyone outside of themselves, then that (IMHO) is elitism. {Note the qualifiers in the above}Originally Posted by ChrisA
Ah, perhaps it's this "taking the dance seriously" that throws up so many barriers? It's dancing. It's fun. I screw up, I laugh it off. At the point that I start taking it seriously and stop having fun, I think I will have to find something else to obsess about.The only difference between me and the beginners that you were referring to is that I didn't sit on the sidelines - I got off my backside and got stuck in. It's that that brings about the acceptance that you seem to imply is so lacking wherever anyone is concerned to take the dance seriously.
(and I know; it may be possible to take it seriously and have fun - but personally, I think that's what workshops and lessons are for {sometimes }. On the dance floor, socially, it's never straight-faced serious.)
You find that everyone you dance with falls into these categories? That's all you find to dance with?Can you not countenance the possibility that people less altruistic than yourself could get bored dancing exclusively with people that grip, yank, bounce, treat the music like a metronome, fail to follow (or lead, obviously), and aren't interested in that appallingly elitist pursuit, getting better at their dancing?
Obviously you are exadurating to make a point, but just because they may do these things, why do you assume that they are not interested in getting better? How will they get better if good dancers like yourself 'get board' with dancing with them and shun them for another 'elite dancer'?
Can you not consider the possibility that these people you isolate are people that obviously love to dance, and love to dance with good dancers. If you are concerned about dancing with them (them injuring you) then why not communicate these concerns?
IMO absolutely nothing. But in doing this, you are not doing it because the people you are passing that night are unworthy of your attention - you are doing it to improve yourself. learn cool stuff. get enthused. There may be a little bit of "escape" in it, but your local venue does not have exclusive rights to your talents.What is so awful about the possibility of going somewhere else, discovering lots of cool new things, a fresh inspiration and enthusiasm, and then coming back reinvigorated and being much more of a pleasure to dance with than one was before?
No, the expectation is as it always has been: to not be rejected (or feel rejected)So not only have these people spent huge amounts of time, money and effort getting to where they are, and retain a care for those coming up behind, but you expect them to seek you out as well?
If these dancers are never witnessed dancing with novices, then how do they "retail a care for those coming up behind"? Seeing someone dance outside of their perceived 'clique' immediately softens the elitist perception and makes them more approachable.
OK, so the "elite" "hang out" in specific areas and only open their doors to people who knock on them. This does not sound a good argument against calling them elitist.That's not reasonable in the world I inhabit - if I want help from the elite, and they're prepared to give it, I go to them; I don't expect them to hang out where I am.
yes, but it's easier to actually reach out and have the good dancers be there rather than having to knock three times and say the secret password before the elite will let you in.A fact of life is that people have a better time if they go out and get what they want rather than hoping it will come to them.
The argument is not about simply getting off your butt, it's about being receptive to those who do.
If you can't swim and have a fear of drowning, are you going to take a stranger's word to "dive right in; the water's lovely!" The wallflowers may paddle their feet in the water, but without the mermaid's intervention, she will have no new sailors to drown.Sad really, they'd have such a better time if they just dived in.
I know you use qualifiers, but I don't think that justifies your use of strawmen. I don't know of any venues that only allow in an 'elite'. None of the 'elite' dancers I know refuse dancers with beginners. So the accusation of exclusivity fails.Originally Posted by Gadget
They go to a venue just like anyone else! If you call that elitist, then surely so is MJ - all those people going to special dance venues instead of the local nightclub - the horror! And consider this - all these 'elite' venues are actually open to anyone who wants to turn up. But (AFAIK) Ceroc has classes open only to teachers. Can't really get more elitist than that.OK, so the "elite" "hang out" in specific areas and only open their doors to people who knock on them. This does not sound a good argument against calling them elitist.
Strawman again. No secret passwords that I'm aware of at any venues. In fact, I see almost the complete opposite - go to the 'elite' venues, and people will actually teach you the 'secret stuff' - you know, like frame, connection, musicality, how to move well, or do drops and lifts properly. Go to your typical MJ venue, and you have a few people who can do these things well and everyone else wondering "how do they know how to do that when it's never taught?".yes, but it's easier to actually reach out and have the good dancers be there rather than having to knock three times and say the secret password before the elite will let you in.
I think there is a legitimate concern that the elites will end up completely deserting the normal MJ nights, and so weaken them. But most of these people dance a lot (and it ain't no coincidence!) - often 4-5 times a week. There are very few 'elite' evenings throughout the whole country. So I'm not sure this is a real problem.
Dave
Hmmm, aren't the real elite those that stay in the same venue *because* they're the big fish in a small pond
Surely those that are humble enough to realise that they aren't experts are the ones that try and find out more information on the topic -- by thinking, researching, practising (surely an elitist practice ), or even going to a different class.
I assume that any teacher on a topic knows something about it -- but not everything. And they probably won't be able to teach me everything they know. And *I* probably won't learn everything that they teach me! So, I go to as many different teachers as possible as often as I can to try and learn as much as I can. And if I want to learn to dance, rather than simply do a single style, I might even go to non-MJ classes
SpinDr.
Apperance and perception - I very much doubt that there is a plague of "eliteism" sweeping venues that the 'elite' decend uppon.Originally Posted by David Franklin
People sit with their friends, and dance with them. These friendships have developed over months of dancing and shared (dancing) experiances. These people have developed together. A new person on the scene looks over and sees a gaggle of good dancers all talking to each other and dancing with each other. To them, this may appear as elitist. Untill they get to dance with them or be welcomed into that circle, it looks like a clique.
It's like taxi-dancers: naturally, they all are decent dancers, have enthusiasm, like to share experiances with each other and the teacher, etc. so they tend to congregate - off duty or on. This is even more clique like because they even have badges and belong to a sect within the MJ arena.
As I say - Apperance and perception. Untill you have a framework to relate it to and get to know the 'social rules', it will appear intimidating and daunting to approach these groups, let alone asking any one of them for a dance. (That's the way it would appear to me anyway)
Why? Is there less 'stimulation' for them? are they getting 'board' with teaching the same things again and again to the next set of newcomers?I think there is a legitimate concern that the elites will end up completely deserting the normal MJ nights,
Why when you can learn them all within MJ? {}Originally Posted by spindr
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Bookmarks