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Thread: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

  1. #41
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    It does tend to be the 'average but dancing for a while' types who are most 'arrogant'.
    ....

    This is SO true.

    All the really good dancers I know, to whose levels I can only aspire in my dreams, are genuinely nice, dedicated people, committed to improving their dancing (in fact constantly aware of how far short of their own ideals they come), never satisfied with where they've got to, happy to help out lesser mortals where they can, and very human.

    It's what makes me so angry when people slag off the 'greats' as elitist, or whatever. These people, in my experience, are simply not like the picture that the jealous paint of them.

    It's the deep-down mediocre, lots of years of dancing but not a shred of self-awareness, ivory tower, don't-criticise-me-in-case-I-have-to-look-honestly-at-myself types that are the most arrogant, and the least receptive to feedback, direct or indirect.
    Last edited by ChrisA; 26th-March-2005 at 11:04 PM.

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    All the really good dancers I know, to whose levels I can only aspire in my dreams, are genuinely nice, dedicated people, committed to improving their dancing (in fact constantly aware of how far short of their own ideals they come), never satisfied with where they've got to, happy to help out lesser mortals where they can, and very human.


    I agree with ChrisA on this. Just about every great dancer I know will dance with everyone - and they're always trying to find ways to get better. In my own area many people look up to me as a fab dancer - if only they knew I'm not sure what I should be doing with my free hand, am trying to stop myself doing a step-in-place on every second beat, am trying to do single spins more slowly so they finish in the right place for the music, am annoyed with myself when an interesting bit of music goes unmarked by my dancing, wish I knew a few more interesting moves, etc, etc, etc.

    So, when I'm a hundred and become that great dancer I'm aspiring to be, do you think I'm going to change what I do? And, more importantly, I'll still be working on improving so how will I know I am that great dancer?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    It's what makes me so angry when people slag off the 'greats' as elitist, or whatever.
    I don't think it's the great dancers that get slagged off as elitist, it's the 'elitist' dancers that get slagged off for being what they are. The reason they are elitist might be because of the self-image they hold of their dancing: it might even be the self-image they hold of their attractiveness to the opposite sex - but there ARE elitists out there and they get right up my nose in the usually friendly and inclusive MJ environment But, as ChrisA says, they're not usually the truly great dancers

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    It's the deep-down mediocre, lots of years of dancing but not a shred of self-awareness, ivory tower, don't-criticise-me-in-case-I-have-to-look-honestly-at-myself types that are the most arrogant, and the least receptive to feedback, direct or indirect.

  3. #43
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I don't think it's the great dancers that get slagged off as elitist, it's the 'elitist' dancers that get slagged off for being what they are. The reason they are elitist might be because of the self-image they hold of their dancing: it might even be the self-image they hold of their attractiveness to the opposite sex
    This is true.

    But it's also true that there is an undercurrent (and not that 'under', either, sometimes) here on the forum that associates those who take dancing seriously with elitism.

    If fostering excellence is elitist then I'm happy to be tagged as such. I want to improve, and I want to see the best that there is available get better, and I want more people to aspire to excellence and improve themselves as a result. There is no downside to an ongoing improvement in standards.

    Sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness, lack of care, are all things you find on the dance floor occasionally, and are not nice. But they're nothing to do with being a good dancer.

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp
    (if I get over there in the summer Julie, then you'll have to take time to instruct me in the ways of Australia )).
    What do you mean "if" Trampy?!? When will you decide DanceMania is clearly the place to be at the end of August?!

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Maybe I'm just rude... Most of the time, I do 1 dance / 1 person, but I don't know about other leaders. Guess I'm just conscious of the large number of partners and the small amount of time in an average night. Or maybe I'm just afraid of commitment
    It's only just occurred to me that the high numbers at the UK venues are perhaps the reason for the one dance etiquette being acceptable. It all makes sense now. I'll never be offended again when dancing with a UK guy!

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie G
    What do you mean "if" Trampy?!? When will you decide DanceMania is clearly the place to be at the end of August?!
    Already decided that Miss Gunn.

    Now I just need the funds....

    (Anyone in the Dundee area know of any full-time jobs that a hard-working student can do from May 16th to the end of July (and possibly in term time on a part-time basis))??

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Julie G
    It's only just occurred to me that the high numbers at the UK venues are perhaps the reason for the one dance etiquette being acceptable. It all makes sense now. I'll never be offended again when dancing with a UK guy!
    Actually, I never thought about it either but now you've put it so clearly, I think you're probably right.

    Another day, another fact learned, I'm getting good at this acquiring-knowledge thing

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    There's far too much agreement on this thread, I'll have to try to disagree with something someone's saying or we'll drown in consensus... ahhh:
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness, lack of care, are all things you find on the dance floor occasionally, and are not nice. But they're nothing to do with being a good dancer.
    I'd disagree (whew ). A solo dancer can have all the sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness and lack of care he/she wants. But surely one of the main differentiators of a good partner dancer is the ability to make the partner look and feel good, and I'd like to think that taking care with your partner is a big part of that job. I could be just indulging in wishful thinking here of course.

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTramp
    (Anyone in the Dundee area know of any full-time jobs that a hard-working student can do from May 16th to the end of July (and possibly in term time on a part-time basis))??
    Would they be sewing and cooking type jobs?

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by JoC
    Would they be sewing and cooking type jobs?
    Pretty much anything. I'm open to offers!!

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    Cheeky by nature Little Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    I'd disagree (whew ). A solo dancer can have all the sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness and lack of care he/she wants. But surely one of the main differentiators of a good partner dancer is the ability to make the partner look and feel good, and I'd like to think that taking care with your partner is a big part of that job. I could be just indulging in wishful thinking here of course.


    I SOOOOO agree!! I've danced with a few (very rare, actually!!) of the sneering, arrogant and self-centered kind, and despite being very good dancers, they made me feel like s**t , and I'll avoid dancing with them in the future!!

    Very often, these dancers are also the ones to ask you up by just flicking their head in the direction of the floor, or just extend a hand, without asking, smiling or hardly looking at you. How off-putting is that??? Saying that, I know a few guys that I dance with on a regular basis who ask me up like that, but in a jokey way, and that's ok!

    LM

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    Registered User Clive Long's Avatar
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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    This is true.

    But it's also true that there is an undercurrent (and not that 'under', either, sometimes) here on the forum that associates those who take dancing seriously with elitism.

    If fostering excellence is elitist then I'm happy to be tagged as such. I want to improve, and I want to see the best that there is available get better, and I want more people to aspire to excellence and improve themselves as a result. There is no downside to an ongoing improvement in standards.

    Sneering, arrogance, thoughtlessness, lack of care, are all things you find on the dance floor occasionally, and are not nice. But they're nothing to do with being a good dancer.
    I'm with Chris A on this

    I am uncomfortable by the word "elitism".

    I looked at an online dictionary - and that's not because I want to use a pedantic weapon to beat people about their use or misuse of the word elitism - and I believe dictionary definitions do not always define current meaning or reflect currect usage of words.

    However.

    Dictionary.com defines elitism as:

    1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
    2.The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
    3.Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

    I don't think any of these can apply in Modern Jive since there are no "arbitrary" barriers to entry nor barriers to the dancer's development (excepting time, money and opportunity to devote to dancing)

    So let's not argue about elitism. For those who want to develop their dancing let them aspire to excellence. Recognise the "MJ elite" results from the hard work of those (including teachers) who give their time to dance - is open for anyone to enter (given time, money and opportunity). For those who just want a fun, sociable, diverting hobby, dance is there for them too.

    The MJ elite (if it exists) does not benefit in any way that disadvantages other dancers.

    Clive

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    Formerly known as DavidJames David Bailey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey
    Very often, these dancers are also the ones to ask you up by just flicking their head in the direction of the floor, or just extend a hand, without asking, smiling or hardly looking at you. How off-putting is that???
    LM
    Simple and easy answer, ignore them

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive Long
    I am uncomfortable by the word "elitism".
    ~snip~
    I'm uncomfortable with the word "elite" simply because of the association to "eliteism" - If you say "the best dancers", "dance gods", or whatever then there are less connetations and links to the 'snobbish' attitude implied by "eliteism".

    To me, saying "the elite of MJ" sounds like "the elitist people of MJ" which leads to "eliteism". Amazing how a simple difference in view on the same word can turn what was intended as a flattering and complementary statement into a demeaning and derogatory one.

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    I've had several guys who were pretty poor dancers consistently singling me out for a dance in some of the dance holidays I'd been on. One of them had admitted that some women had turned him down and I could see why. He wanted to practise some of the moves that we had learned that day and took a while to realize that he'd made a mistake. I didn't turn any of them down although I wanted to. I wonder if I look like the 'won't say no' type. It sort of kills my confidence a bit, not to say that I have a lot of it in the first place. Of course, there are also some really fantastic dancers who would ask me for a dance every night.

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    I haven't been to salsa events outside of Belfast so I can only comment on locally. I have only seen one really fab salsa dancer here (there are others who are good but one guy stands out) and I danced with him in a class once and he had a lovely attitude, smiled when I got something right etc. It does tend to be the 'average but dancing for a while' types who are most 'arrogant'. I do think that has had an influence on me not feeling my dancing is 'good enough' to ask a better dancer up. And I know you can get those types in MJ too, but I do think there is a different culture in dancing with people you don't know or you know are less advanced than you.
    I am starting to feel a little better about the salsa scene here in Belfast. I had a pretty enjoyable night at the La Tasca, Odyssey Saturday night. A couple of guys that I haven't met before had asked me for a dance.

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    Cheeky by nature Little Monkey's Avatar
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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidJames
    Simple and easy answer, ignore them
    Think you mis-read my post, sweetie! I was simply commenting on the fact that arrogant behaviour is off-putting! And ignoring them is just what I do - or find some otherexcuse for not dancing with them!

    LM

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Monkey
    Think you mis-read my post, sweetie! I was simply commenting on the fact that arrogant behaviour is off-putting! And ignoring them is just what I do - or find some EVIL VILLAIN otherexcuse for not dancing with them!

    LM
    Yep, probably - I assumed you were still dancing with these Evil People. But then perhaps I assumed they were your Evil Henchmen, as you are officially an
    Evil Villain-ess
    Last edited by David Bailey; 29th-March-2005 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Can't get to grips with markup...

  19. #59
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Quote Originally Posted by ajiver
    I am starting to feel a little better about the salsa scene here in Belfast. I had a pretty enjoyable night at the La Tasca, Odyssey Saturday night. A couple of guys that I haven't met before had asked me for a dance.
    Haven't been to La Tasca yet, I'll try it next month. I think it does depend on the 'crowd' at the particular event you go to. But my initial experiences were that no-one really asked me up - OK I didn't know most of them, but I didn't know the guys when I went to a Ceroc night in London, or when I went to the first Southport, and was asked up.

    Now just have to practice asking the guys more often!
    Last edited by Lynn; 29th-March-2005 at 11:58 PM.

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    Re: Dance etiquette: Asking for a dance...

    Yeah I have to agree with Gus! Although it's nice to learn routines with other beginners when you're just starting out, some of the more experienced dancers show you different techniques of each move, and I feel that by mixing these techniques with your own practice you can create this whole new movement with other beginners! Taxi Dancers also need a mention coz they're great too!

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