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Thread: Raunch Factor

  1. #1
    Registered User Wendy's Avatar
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    Raunch Factor

    Originally posted by bill foreman
    ...we are so uptight about this aren't we - yet in S America the 'macho' men think nothing of learning to salsa or tango together !...
    This got me thinking about the variations on how comfortable people are with the more up-close-and-personal moves and .. well raunchiness.. for want of a better word.

    Personally, I find that the men at the Edinburgh parties, for instance, (and yes, I know some of them are from Aberdeen ) are more likely to do raunchier moves than the men at the Glasgow parties. And Graham felt the same way about the women

    So. Is this a regional thing, an age thing, a who's-taught-you thing or simply a je-ne-sais-quoi thing ???

    Would love to hear your comments.

    Let the debate commence!

    Wx

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    Papa Smurf
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    I think all guys who go to Ceroc have obviously got over the 'dancing is for girls' nonsense The problem is more likely to be who will lead than anything else - and of course not wanting to find out that trying to follow a bad lead can be torture and following isn't as easy as it looks :p

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    Registered User Jon's Avatar
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    Wendy, I think it might be a "How well do you know your partner" thing.

    I love dancing up close and personal moves and with one particular partner she now calls it "Up close n steamy". Can't wait for more on Monday Sharon!.

    When we say up close and personal for those of you who don't know that pretty much means there is little or no day light between your bodies

    But I only do these moves when I know someone very well and there is a connection when we dance. Otherwise I'd feel uncomfortable doing them.

    I did a dirty dancing workshop with someone I've known for over a year and it was a great laugh. And even though it was fixed partners, looking around some people (men & ladies) did look a little uncomfortable at times.

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    Jon


    and I thought the 'up close and steamy' was our little secret!!

    Seeing as the secrets are coming out Em/Dan you may as well know that I really put him through his paces on Friday at St Mary's I even seduced him on the carpet in the church in front of Cliff and Penny during the lesson - we've never laughed so much!!

    Action replay on Monday, Wednesday & Thursday me thinks.!!

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    Registered User Jon's Avatar
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    How many more secrets do we have then Sharon?

    I think Frank needs to put a disclaimer before you join the forum. Something like:

    Participating in this forum will seriously damage your squeaky clean reputation!

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    Re: Raunch Factor

    Originally posted by Wendy
    This got me thinking about the variations on how comfortable people are with the more up-close-and-personal moves and .. well raunchiness.. for want of a better word.
    I think that there are many factors as to what is uncomfortable; the main ones bing the way were raised and if we had done any othe dancing before.
    It's all to do with personal space - you can be hot and steamy without even touching; some of the best flamenco just oozes sex, but the style is miles from the 'blues' crotch grinding that most people think of for raunch.

    When dancing this close, small errors can lead to accidental 'petting' (? wrong term?). Hips, waist, sholder, arms etc. are OK, but how embarassed/shocked would your partner be if you screwed up a move? Would they get the wrong idea? would they dance with you again? Would roumors start? How embarassed would you be? :sorry
    I think that a lot of the reason that men don't, or only dance close with people they know well (or have already established a dance "reputation" with) is due to this fear factor.

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    All interesting points, but nobody so far has addressed the central question of why there is variation. Wendy and I have both noticed differences in the way people dance with strangers in other venues. Is it random? Has anyone else noticed this? Is it my imagination? Do I have a doppelganger with lots of UCP partners in the other venues?

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Graham
    All interesting points, but nobody so far has addressed the central question of why there is variation. Wendy and I have both noticed differences in the way people dance with strangers in other venues. Is it random? Has anyone else noticed this? Is it my imagination? Do I have a doppelganger with lots of UCP partners in the other venues?
    Maybe it is to do with the fact people are more relaxed with strangers / visitors, and more willing to experiment! A bit like tourists abroad, who behave very differently from at home!
    I think the teacher's style has an effect (in particular the moves we choose to teach / or not to teach). The demographics of each city are also different, different age groups, different status (ie more single people at some venues). The DJ might have an effect as well, what music gets played etc...
    Finally if you have observed that at parties, then it could be that people are more adventurous at the week-end

    Saying all the above, I would say that none of the Ceroc nights are "raunchy", there might be a few dancers who dance in a more "sexy" way, but nothing like the "raunchiness" as displayed in the opening scene of the film: Dirty Dancing...

    Franck.

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    Venue Manager Fran's Avatar
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    up close and personal

    Couldnt resist getting involved in this debate - close to my heart.

    This got me thinking about the variations on how comfortable people are with the more up-close-and-personal moves and .. well raunchiness.. for want of a better word.
    WENDY


    Personally, I find that the men at the Edinburgh parties, for instance, (and yes, I know some of them are from Aberdeen ) are more likely to do raunchier moves than the men at the Glasgow parties. And Graham felt the same way about the women
    WENDY



    I have heard many times from male dancers visiting us from down south that they thought that the Edinburgh ladies seemed very much more comfortable to do up close and personal moves compared to other areas in Britain. I would like to say that it is not just the Edinburgh ladies because there are several female dancers in Aberdeen and Dundee who also enjoy this style of dancing - It is not a style that I have noticed in Glasgow ceroc and if it happens I appologise. (well actually Roy does a really nice close move - but he could be Edinburgh as well I guess)

    There is a simple reason for this and it is down to the accessiablity of a male lead who can understand and tastefully interperate the slower music and introduce succesfully close moves. When I started Ceroc I was introduced immeadiatley to "Blues" which I am sooo glad because I love that style as does my partner - the Aberdeen one (to quote from wendy ) There are several people now who dance in Edinburgh, Aberdeen & Dundee who have for a few years experienced blues workshops and dance holidays which incorporate lots of close moves lessons so it seems logical that perhaps in Edinburgh the ladies are used to such moves .

    I think the teacher's style has an effect (in particular the moves we choose to teach / or not to teach). The demographics of each city are also different, different age groups, different status (ie more single people at some venues). The DJ might have an effect as well, what music gets played etc...
    FRANK

    I agree with some of your thoughts Frank, The DJ is extremly important if the right music is not being played it will never inspire you to the full potential and for some of the closer/bluesy moves a slower beat is needed. Edinburgh is lucky because Scott plays fabuloues music to cater for all types at our monthly parties and every one who has visited us from down south has commented on the quality of music - Nigel defended us to Andy the other week (Jump n Jive) on howmuch better the Thursday night music was compared to many southern venues

    But I am getting off track - getting invoved in a close move move dance has nothing to do with if you are single and looking for somthing more. Some of the best blues dances or simply close move dances I have had the pleasure of having with both in England and Scotland have between with people who are not looking for anything else, indeed from a woman's point of view the safer you feel the more relaxed and fun you can have during the dance. Which raises the difference between a fabby dance and a sleezy/uncomfortable one. Close moves are meant to look sensous and not sleezy. It can be a unpleasant feeling for both male and females to be dancing with a partner who over steps the mark. Things are not always what the seem anyway - if you are both in the proper positions
    ( excuse the pun!!!:sorry ) there is far less body contact than what appears to be. Having said that with the right person ..... :sorry

    Roger and Ann taught a wonderfull blues workshop a few months ago in Edinburgh and the main part of the bodies touching were only to be the ladies right side and the mans right side - that will come out all wrong, but I know what I mean - but basically it means no personal parts contact - dont think I could have said it any more politley than that. if anyone who was there reads this you may be able to explain it better than me!!


    Saying all the above, I would say that none of the Ceroc nights are "raunchy", there might be a few dancers who dance in a more "sexy" way, but nothing like the "raunchiness" as displayed in the opening scene of the film: Dirty Dancing...
    FRANK


    True Frank, for several reasons ceroc does not teach people to slow down the beat or introduce many up close moves and I would not like to called raunchy or offend anyones sensceabilities when Bill and I dance - although Scott did once appear on the dance floor next to us with a electric fan but he was only joking.

    I suggest you check out a blues room one night Frank - Gives a whole new meaning for the description of up close moves - there is a great blues weekend in January run by Nigel and Nina. All I can say is it pure bliss.

    and you simply thank your partner and find another one. so safe, so nice , such fun.


    And yes I am talking about just dancing.


    Fran

  10. #10
    Commercial Operator
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    Blues Tips :wink:

    Hi Guys,
    An impossible dance I think, unless you are confident enough in yourself, or you have had lessons?

    There is a simple reason for this and it is down to the accessiablity of a male lead who can understand and tastefully interperate the slower music and introduce succesfully close moves. When I started Ceroc I was introduced immeadiatley to "Blues" which I am sooo glad

    I think most males trying to lead this kind of dance feel they may be labelled the 'pervert' if they get it wrong, so never really try it out. If they have that relaxed dance mode; Bill for instance, then they tend to slip into it anyway
    This is a fantastic way to dance & once dancers have been on weekenders & Blues Workshops, there's no stopping them.
    The only way forward, therefore is to take the mountain to Glasgow. Introduce a couple of Blues Workshops, with freestyle dancing that evening, aimed predominantly at Blues, or as Fran says, a separate room. Sharp Shock Treatment.
    A tip for the guys, get rid of keys, phones & wallets from your pockets :sorry , or at the very least your right pocket, and keep an eye on the lady. If she's not happy explain it's blues & maybe create a little distance, Blues does not have to be a 'no daylight between you' dance it can have a very nice frame to it. Nigel; of Nigel & Nina does this extremely well.
    Happy dancing
    Keith

  11. #11
    Venue Manager Fran's Avatar
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    This is a fantastic way to dance & once dancers have been on weekenders & Blues Workshops, there's no stopping them.
    Keith
    At least it is not just me then Keith
    The only way forward, therefore is to take the mountain to Glasgow. Introduce a couple of Blues Workshops, with freestyle dancing that evening, aimed predominantly at Blues, or as Fran says, a separate room. Sharp Shock Treatment.
    Keith
    Could you handle that one Frank? Its not technically ceroc not sure if some of the moves would have that "bounce" required by HQ -
    be worth it though!!!

    Nigel and Nina have done a few short blues work shops up here
    over the last few years, unfortunatley most of the longer ones are down south - But heres hoping

    sorry we left early the other weekend Keith but looking forward to seeing you and Janey soon , very hopefully before blackpool - great tips about the keys, phones in pokets by the way!!

    Fran

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: up close and personal

    Originally posted by Fran
    True Frank, for several reasons ceroc does not teach people to slow down the beat or introduce many up close moves and I would not like to called raunchy or offend anyones sensceabilities when Bill and I dance -
    Many reasons indeed, and while I do like the music, and like dancing slower, I would not want to introduce "Blues dancing" as part of a regular Ceroc night either!
    It all boils down to perceptions, you know that you are havine a fun / safe dance, but to (innocent) by-standers, it might look very different. As you say, what is fun with one person, could be very embarassing with another!
    As ever, when teaching Ceroc, we have to take into account the huge variety of people who visit our classes; all of them for different reasons, and at different levels / stages of learning.
    As with Dips and drops, it is good to teach the odd "close" move, so that we can explain clearly what is appropriate (and what is not) in term of contact etc...
    I think it is great however, that people do Blues dancing, and enjoy it so much; The idea of a special Blues workshop or party could work and be really fun.
    I suggest you check out a blues room one night Frank - Gives a whole new meaning for the description of up close moves
    Well uh :sorry is that an invitation?
    I afraid, my blues credentials stop at the comb and the odd shimmy / sway
    In all fairness though, I don't think I am (or would be) comfortable dancing any closer than I already do... I like the idea of dancing as an un-threatening thing you can do with as many people as possible and at all levels. Bringing in dips / drops or close moves makes it a more restrictive dance, and goes against my demagogic philosophy!

    Franck.

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Fran
    Could you handle that one Frank? Its not technically ceroc not sure if some of the moves would have that "bounce" required by HQ -
    be worth it though!!!
    Sure! The "Smooth Grooves" workshop with H in Aberdeen last month was a start, and I am hoping to bring more guest teachers for a variety of workshops next year.
    While I might have appeared negative in my previous post, I really like Blues generally, just don't think teaching it fits within a regular Ceroc night (dancing it does though ).
    My ambition is to get more people to dance, and develop a passion for dancing once they realise that they actually can do it!
    Once they have that passion, is great to see some dancers (a third or so) explore further and find a style of dancing that suits them! However, as Jayne mentions in another thread on advanced dancing, it is worth remembering what makes Ceroc so effective at inspiring people to dance, before we make too many changes, which could put off more people than they attract!
    great tips about the keys, phones in pokets by the way!!
    Indeed, try dancing Blues with a kilt and sporran

    Franck.

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    Re: Re: Raunch Factor

    Originally posted by Gadget
    but the style is miles from the 'blues' crotch grinding that most people think of for raunch.I think that a lot of the reason that men don't, or only dance close with people they know well (or have already established a dance "reputation" with) is due to this fear factor.
    You make the mistake Gadget that many non- Blues dancers do It's not about crotch griding at all. If you''re doing Blues you aren't anywhwere near crotch to crotch - and if you are you're not doing Blues

    The leads comes from the knee and inner thigh and isn't nearly as close as many Salsa and Tango moves. It gives the impression of being close but it's perfectly safe - whatever the onlooker may think. But it's about trust - and fun - and palying to the music and Blues allows dancers to do that more than 'pure' Ceroc I think mainly because it's slower and gives time to interpret - but maybe that's one reaosn why some folk don't like it - it can be harder to dance to slower songs than to faster ones.

    Mind you - one of our first Taxi dancers ( remember Luke !?) thought that a comb was pretty sleazy !!!!!!!!

    I've done a few workshops now and love the moves, the flow and the music - unfortunately our DJ's think that one 'Blues' record a night is more than enough

    But coming back to Wendy's point - about the differences between the clubs - I really don't know whatthe difference can be as the music tends to be very much the same; the age range appears to be much the same in all the Scottish clubs and even the number of dancers who have done ballroom; salsa etc before might be the same.

    If anything I would have expected the number of men doing close moves to be higher in Glasgow than in the east - not sure exactly why !

    All I can say is that I'm delighted I found 'Blues' and enjoy dancing close - and not for the reasons some might think :sorry - I just love music and for me slow = style/elegance/interpretation. And before anyone shoots off saying you can do that to fast music I'd say yes of course you can. Anyone who saw Helen and Craig (Gus) in the final at Blackpool can see that. A great example of interpreting dance music ( still think you guys were robbed by the way !! )

    But sorry Wendy.........can't answer your question.......but can I have a bluesy dance next time

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Raunch Factor

    Originally posted by Bill
    You make the mistake Gadget that many non- Blues dancers do It's not about crotch griding at all. If you''re doing Blues you aren't anywhwere near crotch to crotch - and if you are you're not doing Blues
    The leads comes from the knee and inner thigh and isn't nearly as close as many Salsa and Tango moves. It gives the impression of being close but it's perfectly safe - whatever the onlooker may think.
    Aha, but Bill, you make the mistake that Blues dancers do
    Knee / inner thigh contact is (In my opinion) already pretty intimate, and I am sure that many men / women would feel pretty uncomfortable dancing that way with some if not all partners...
    I agree though, that if you are crotch to crotch, then you are not doing blues (or even dancing ).

    Franck.

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    Venue Manager Fran's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Franck
    Indeed, try dancing Blues with a kilt and sporran
    I agree with all the women on this site about how lovely it is to see a man in a kilt!! I particulary like it with the hiking boots and big socks effect.....but your right Frank it does not quite go with blues dancing - the sporran gets in the way!

    would like to say that I know blues and close dancing is not for everyone and know many males and females who do not like the invasion of their personal space and that should be respected. The people on the circut who do dance this way do not do it with everyone and as with all dances it comes down to feeling comfortable enough with the particular individual.

    The one huge advantage of a special blues event is that there is a general understanding amongst everyone there of what it is all about and there is a safe enviroment for all concerned.

    The same goes for a ceroc night as well, I cant think of many other types of social gatherings which take place in such a safe, pleasant and fun enviroment for people - particulary for ladies on their own.
    Many women I have spoken to have said that they would not go to a normal night club to dance as it it is not as much fun as at the ceroc parties where everyone is able to ask each other to dance with no agendas.

    Fran

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    Venue Manager Fran's Avatar
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    The leads comes from the knee and inner thigh and isn't nearly as close as many Salsa and Tango moves. It gives the impression of being close but it's perfectly safe - whatever the onlooker may think. But it's about trust - and fun - and palying to the music and Blues allows dancers to do that more than 'pure' Ceroc BILL
    That is what I was trying to explain earlier!thankyou

    The interpretaion which Ann and Rodger have of the blues dance is an even safer one - looks can be deciving!!!!!!!

    fran

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    Ok.........so far a few contributions but no answers for you Wendy !

    And it's not just about Blues dancing.........you mentioned 'raunchy' moves- though this definition will change depending on who you ask :p

    Combs can be raunchy as can some dips and drops - or is it just any moves that's up close ???? As I saod many salsa and tango moves are even closer - which took me aback a little - but though I didn't get on too well at salsa I would love to Tango - even though it's closer:sorry

    Are Glasgow dancers more uptight ? Need more body space.......

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    Re: Re: Re: Raunch Factor

    Originally posted by Bill
    You make the mistake Gadget that many non- Blues dancers do It's not about crotch griding at all.
    I know - but it makes more of a dramatic impact said that way.

  20. #20
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    I'm not a great fan of blues - either the music or the dance. I went to one workshop at Camber last year, and sat down after 5 minutes. I didn't see the point in learning something I would never do. It may not be about 'crotch-grinding' but that is what it looks like. I personally don't think many people look good doing it. I don't mind the occasional 'close' move - its doing it non-stop for a whole song that I dislike. If I want to do a slow, sultry dance, I'd do rumba or West Coast Swing, (or tango if I ever get round to learning it.)

    Dancing is described as the vertical expression of horizontal desire. That does not translate into sex while standing up.

    (Purely my own opinion. As usual I would expect to be in the minority. And if people enjoy doing it, I'm not going to stop them.)

    David

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