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Thread: Name and Shame

  1. #41
    Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner drathzel's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane
    That's disgusting.

    I hope she slapped his face when she got her arms free, but I think I would have been too shocked to do anything.
    I would have caused a big fuss slapped his face, then promptly went into a corner to cry!

  2. #42
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ......../big snip/..... Male X was promptly banned but was REINSTATED as he was a friend of one of the powers that be (allegedly)
    creeps


    --ooOoo--
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    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  3. #43
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Diane
    That's disgusting.

    I hope she slapped his face when she got her arms free, but I think I would have been too shocked to do anything.
    I want there but from what I heard I think she was just too shocked to do anything much

    Question to all the orgnaisers on this Forum. Anyone want to come forward and state what background checks you carry out on instructors you bring in to run workshops/events?

    I remember in the late 80s there were a series of martial arts instructors prosecuted for molesting female students under the pretense of teaching them 'close hold' techniques. I've always felt that the issues and politics of Modern Jive have closely mirrored what happened in the martial arts arena years back ... wonder if this is going to be yet another area where experiences will be shared

  4. #44
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    IMHO naming & shaming here would be a mistake.

    There are a couple of examples on this thread where legal action is appropriate (for example, I'd hope that Miss A has reported Mr X for assault). Any discussion here would surely prejudice the case, and naming before any verdict would be illegal? (Plus, of course, there's that ridiculous concept of innocent unless proven guilty idea still around! )

    When it comes to lesser "crimes", such as hotshotting - not everyone agrees on exactly who meets the criteria, so it's far too subjective to go naming individuals!

    When it comes to naming banned individuals, it's far less clear cut. I can see what you're trying to achieve, Gus, and I know it's for the best of intentions, but it's up to the franchisee/organiser to run their club as they see fit. If they've heard rumours or accusations against a member of their club (and these things do tend to surface), then they should talk to the individual concerned, and the people making the accusations, before making up their own mind of what's best for their club. And, yes, there are unscrupulous organisers, but identifying them here won't help much as most people here already have their own viewpoint, and your average Joe punter doesn't care enough to look. The MJ world is small & most news travels without the need to post names on here.

    And, of course, every story has more than one side.

  5. #45
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    And, of course, every story has more than one side.
    You mean Mr X felt her backside as well?!?!?

  6. #46
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock
    You mean Mr X felt her backside as well?!?!?
    Oi! That's not what I meant, and you know it.

  7. #47
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    Oi! That's not what I meant, and you know it.

    Touchy!!



  8. #48
    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ...

    Bit of advice ... if one of these 'so-called' teachers causes you problems ...SUE THE ORGANISER ... they have more money and are entirely culpable These bad boys could not exist if promoters put the safety of customers in front of the need to grab cash.
    ...
    Any mileage in mentioning the venue?? .... just in passing, obviously!

    !an

  9. #49
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    The MJ world is small & most news travels without the need to post names on here.
    Au contraire ... the grapevine in MJ is extremely fragmented and often prone to incorrect 'facts'. One of the 'known' villains is reviled by many but there are many people who I know who regard him as a great lad and have no idea about his dark past. Given all the circumstances I've said nothing ... but I'm taking steps to make sure that he never comes to my venues. Even that is difficult .. without public disclosure of the guys track record I don’t have physical evidence to ban him!

    Not everyone wasn’t to bring court cases ... it can be very traumatic. I've had a friend who was recently abused by 4 guys on a train and was so traumatised that she is unable to press charges for fear of retribution! So how you expect a club dancer to come into the open about a known teacher? I fully agree with most of what Lou has said but I wish there was a path that could help us make the world of MJ even better and remove the very small minority of undesirables from the dance scene.

  10. #50
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Perhaps Ceroc should change the "Basket" since it's obviously open to such abuse.
    {Sorry }

    I don't see what makes someone think that this sort of behaviour is acceptable in any social circumstance. What did the man do? He was leading - he was in charge of her; personally I would have moved the lady out the way and behind me as his hands raised. But If I hadn't noticed the approach, then I would have released the lady and taken him into a basket, lifted and removed him from the premisis. (appologising later for any collisions on the way.)

    How was the lady not able to just take her hands away?

  11. #51
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    I fully agree with most of what Lou has said but I wish there was a path that could help us make the world of MJ even better and remove the very small minority of undesirables from the dance scene.
    I agree - but we need to be careful that it's not at the expense of even one wrongly accused person.

  12. #52
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    I agree - but we need to be careful that it's not at the expense of even one wrongly accused person.
    so....

    GUS IS A PERV

    isn't the way forward then?!?!?!?

    On a serious note: if I were n&s'd here, I'd be grateful for the opportunity to proclaim my innocence, apologise for any offence and relearn/drop any moves I had been doing wrong or had been getting me into trouble...

  13. #53
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    He was leading - he was in charge of her; personally I would have moved the lady out the way and behind me as his hands raised.
    If this had happened to me I'd have thought the groper was bluffing and pretening to be a perv. But, post perving, I would have immediately confronted the guy, dragged him to the organiser and asked him why we shouldn't 'phone the police as this guy had just sexually assaulted a woman

  14. #54
    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock
    so....

    GUS IS A PERV

    isn't the way forward then?!?!?!?...


    On a serious note: if I were n&s'd here, I'd be grateful for the opportunity to proclaim my innocence, apologise for any offence and relearn/drop any moves I had been doing wrong or had been getting me into trouble...
    Ahh... but what if the named person wasn't a forumite?

  15. #55
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I would have immediately confronted the guy, dragged him to the organiser and asked him why we shouldn't 'phone the police as this guy had just sexually assaulted a woman
    I think we would all like to react in this way ... but experience is that most people just dont want to make a fuss ... look at all the assaults on public transport where other passengers 'see nothing' and do nothing.

    In a way I'm sorry I started this thread because it does make it sound like the MJ scene is replete of bounders and parvs .... ITS NOT!! My main issue was a question as to how best to deal with the small number of no-marks who are in MJ. My personal view is that franchises/venue managers are not doing enough and simply dont care. I would LOVE for some one to prove me wrong on this We can all recount incidents where those in charge have failed to act on complaints. That is not to say we go down the route of 'guilty unless proven innocent'. All accusations have to be dealt with in a controlled and fair way ... but they at least have to be considered in the first place. Is that too much to ask?

  16. #56
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    My main issue was a question as to how best to deal with the small number of no-marks who are in MJ. My personal view is that franchises/venue managers are not doing enough and simply dont care. I would LOVE for some one to prove me wrong on this We can all recount incidents where those in charge have failed to act on complaints. That is not to say we go down the route of 'guilty unless proven innocent'. All accusations have to be dealt with in a controlled and fair way ... but they at least have to be considered in the first place. Is that too much to ask?
    I agree with Gus. There are some guys out there who take advantage of our better nature. What would be ideal would be the MJ equivalent of a 'Sex offenders register'. But how would you get onto it, off it, who would put you there, etc? For now, I think the best we can expect is that organisers are forced into creating and adopting the MJ equivalent of a school bullying policy.

    For instance, a while back at BFFF, some nutter was doing drops on a very busy floor - probably too busy for safe dancing without drops! I actually had to pull my partner back before she tripped over a woman who had her head at knee height. I had a word with the guy and told him that what I thought he was doing was dangerous. He told me to get stuffed! So I told Franco. Some time later I spotted this guy doing the same thing so I collared Franco about it: he said that he'd told Nigel. I told Franco that I believed he would be liable for compensation if anyone was injured as he'd been told about a problem and done nothing about it. THAT got Franco's attention and he sorted it out very quickly ...

    I would like to see a suggested policy on the following.

    Drops/Airsteps
    Perving
    Violence

    I think the policy should set out very clearly what the venue owner will do if someone does any of these things. But, I think that the policy shouldn't be provided to everyone. A note on flyers saying something like 'This venue operates a policy regarding inappropriate moves and violence. Please speak to the door person if you would like to see a copy'.

  17. #57
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    My main issue was a question as to how best to deal with the small number of no-marks who are in MJ.
    I think these issues need to be raised, and possible action considered, in advance of incidents occuring, as it sounds like when something does happen that everyone is too shocked, or doesn't want to make a fuss, to do anything at the time. If organiser have a policy then at least there is something to follow.

    I don't think this forum is a place for public naming and shaming, and I think that there is a risk of spreading information about someone unfairly, and there can be other means to 'warn' people than on a public thread.

    So IMO action is needed on two levels
    - for organisers to have a policy on how to handle dangerous or abusive incidents/people
    - for dancers (esp women) to warn each other about a 'known offender' so that women can be on their guard. Also if anyone sees an incident, don't ignore it, ask the person if they are OK, offer to go with them to the organiser to report it etc.

  18. #58
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    So IMO action is needed on two levels
    - for organisers to have a policy on how to handle dangerous or abusive incidents/people
    - for dancers (esp women) to warn each other about a 'known offender' so that women can be on their guard. Also if anyone sees an incident, don't ignore it, ask the person if they are OK, offer to go with them to the organiser to report it etc.
    Yup ... I go with that.

  19. #59
    Registered User DianaS's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynn
    So IMO action is needed on two levels
    - for organisers to have a policy on how to handle dangerous or abusive incidents/people
    - for dancers (esp women) to warn each other about a 'known offender' so that women can be on their guard. Also if anyone sees an incident, don't ignore it, ask the person if they are OK, offer to go with them to the organiser to report it etc.
    I've found that women are really good at this, but also really appreciate the support and advice that guys have given me and my friends, it's not only helpful and supportive but enables me to see things from "the other side" so to speak!

  20. #60
    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Re: Name and Shame

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    My personal view is that franchises/venue managers are not doing enough and simply dont care. I would LOVE for some one to prove me wrong on this We can all recount incidents where those in charge have failed to act on complaints. That is not to say we go down the route of 'guilty unless proven innocent'. All accusations have to be dealt with in a controlled and fair way ... but they at least have to be considered in the first place. Is that too much to ask?
    A guy in the last few months was banned at a avenue I attend and in fact the teacher at the time made an announcement to the fact and that she had received a number of complaints. She went on to say be considerate of a women’s space etc etc

    This led to the standard 'guessing who he was' and my theory was wrong as the guy I thought it was there next week.

    It an old point but its up to the women/man who gets punched groped etc and organiser I would guess can only act on a series of complaints.

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