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Thread: Challenging Your Modern Jive

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    Challenging Your Modern Jive

    We often hear a track talked about as being good to Ceroc to. And I've noticed that many Ceroc venues, at least in my area, tend to play the same type of tracks. And when an unusual track is played, perhaps for its tempo, I hear some Cerocers exclaim "I can't dance to this!"

    It's as if a certain kind of track is considered good for modern jive dancing.

    But can we challenge our modern jive dancing, even if in an experimental way, by focusing a little more on those tracks that are seldom heard at a Ceroc venue, yet contain the ingredients for developing our dance.

    Granted, this is not necessarily the best way to fill Ceroc beginners with confidence, but I think this is the way to make us think about musical interpretation, and to shock us out of our habitual responses on the Ceroc dancefloor which tend to be so predictable at times.

    What would happen if we attempted to Ceroc to Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake? Yes, this is ballet music and perhaps I am taking things to an extreme here to make a point, but there would be a challenge! How can you not be forced to focus on musicality then and shake yourself out of the formulaic Ceroc responses to music?

    By introducing unexpected tracks into a Ceroc evening we would not only be forced to become better listeners and interpreters of music, we would also be forced to develop our dance style, to take it beyond the cardboard cutout forms it can become. Ste said something along the lines of that he sees Ceroc as two pieces of bread between which we can place a delicious filling by introducing elements from other dance forms, and I agree.

    What does everybody else think? Are we becoming complacent about the possibilities of our own dancing?

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    NO
    Dancers are not becoming complacement - the opposite if anything.

    Most people learning MJ start with easy fun and structured beginners class, they move on to intermediate and either are happy to stay there or look further for more complicated moves, other styles or variations on a theme.
    Whatever direction they take the basic dance form must be retained to enjoy their new-found talents on the mj dance floor......the dance MUST be leadable, contrived or choreographed moves are often wasted in open freestyle.

    Music is the same, safe 'pop' tunes for beginners are essential and many will want no more.

    All to often 'challenging' music where finding the beat or rhythm is a task in it self are played at venues for 'advanced' dancers. More often than not this fails to immpress the dancers, teachers or organisers. Dancers then become wary of new tracks outside the 'comfort zone' of their usual music diet.

    Challenging music to me is a tune that makes me want to dance irrespective of it's genre, it will contain breaks and openings for interpretation, but will keep my feet tapping throughout the track.

    Should venues in your area play different music.........dunno many clubs have bombed cos the balance of music and teaching was wrong. Gus took the inititive in his (details area on another thread) and it paid off so it may happen in other areas....Hope so but getting organisers to change anything when their venues are packed is not an easy task
    Peter

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    I think each venue has it's own market. Quite a few Ceroc venues on regular class nights cater to the beginner/intermediate who are most comfortable with the standard range of music within a certain number of bpm. I know some franchisees who have tried playing more adventurous music (for the more experienced or experimental punter) and had complaints. One franchisees response to these complaints is that she has to cater to all levels of dancer but admitedly she gears the music towards the 'safe' zone.

    But then you do get the likes of DJ Kenobe who seems to have found his niche playing the most eclectic mix of all sorts of fantastic music and is always coming up with some new stuff, all of it very danceable but one has to listen and feel. The market for this kind of stuff is places like Kent House (Amir's new Jango venue), and the Kent House Tjive, also some Ceroc freestyle nights. You may have gathered that I am a massive fan of Kenobe

    Oh, and I have had a wonderful mj dance to Handel (with Roger Chin as it happens - one of those memorable dances).

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    If you want to listen to, and dance to, adventurous music, I wonder if an MJ night (of whatever brand) is the best place to do that. Would venturing out into the "real world" with some like-minded friends be a better alternative?

    Why not go to a classical concert and start jiving in the aisles?

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    I'm pretty much with LL here, for several reasons.

    Most non-competition MJ involves a mixed ability group, with often a high proportion of inexperienced dancers. It is a sad but undeniable fact that many beginner men (some women too, obviously, but it's a particular problem in men) have difficulty in dancing to a beat, and while they're learning to do this, the more obvious the beat is, the better.

    Apart from the regular beat, most beginners and improvers do not find it easy to improvise or vary the pace of their dancing, so anything too fast or too slow becomes very difficult for them, and tends to end up with them abandoning trying to keep in time - I'm not sure why we would want to encourage this.

    From observation, most intermediate-level dancers do not even rise to the challenge of very regular breaks, such as in Wade in the Water, far less anything more challenging - until they are comfortable with this level of interpretation, is there any benefit in trying more complex syncopation and improvisation?

    Many pieces of music suggest a particular style of dancing. Although I haven't personally tried it, I imagine that the pace of Iggy Pop's The Passenger would be suitable for Salsa, but why would I want to? Similarly, much of Swan Lake (partly by association of course) suggests expansive balletic movements, and not partner dancing at all, so why would I want to try and MJ to it?

    The point of partner dancing is two people having a musical connection and acting in concert. The beat is a really useful prop because no matter what each person does their partner can have a reasonable expectation of when it will finish, and how fast or slowly they should be moving to complement it. When the music is more complicated, then this connection needs to be made from a combination of lead/follow technique and similar musical interpretation. For me, this effectively limits my choice of partner for a demanding track to about 1%, although if I'm particularly familiar with the music this can broaden out a little. So if the one person I might try out some interesting track with is not there that night, or is dancing with someone else, then I'd probably prefer to sit out.

    In short, while I'm all in favour of improving musical interpretation (both my own and the general standard in MJ), I don't think regular playing of even more challenging tracks than I am used to is the way to do it, although I would say that many interesting tracks quickly suffer from being overplayed (eg All That Jazz or Oh So Quiet), so a little more variety would be welcomed, provided the tracks are not completely unfamiliar.

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Put on what I would you could call 'swan lake music' or music that is clearly hard to 'dance to' as happened at 'somewhere' after 12.00 a few weeks ago will put people off.

    I have no problem with developing my dance style with the 300 or so 'pop music type' songs and this includes blues music etc

    Put garage music on or swan lake type and ill walk off

    Music with breaks in them are good which you get within the above

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper

    Why not go to a classical concert and start jiving in the aisles?

    Nice one.

    Just a thought. As Ceroc are running style and musicality workshops now, is it not a good idea for those who have attended those workshops to be given the opportunity to put what they've learnt into practise at regular Ceroc nights, with music that steps just a little outside the 'safe' zone?

    M

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Isn't synchronicity wonderful there's a discussion on this elsewhere called DJs pay the dancer(s).

    I think that this could be partly solved by building in a couple of tracks into the actual class?

    So at the end of the beginners class you have some beginners tracks; at the end of the improvers' class you have some improvers track; etc. Not as part of the general freestyle -- but simply for people in the class? Preferably with the teachers explaining some ideas on how to use the music, as well. Think of it as a micro-musicality class?

    Then the freestyle can try to cater for all levels.

    SpinDr.

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by spindr

    I think that this could be partly solved by building in a couple of tracks into the actual class?

    So at the end of the beginners class you have some beginners tracks; at the end of the improvers' class you have some improvers track; etc. Not as part of the general freestyle -- but simply for people in the class? Preferably with the teachers explaining some ideas on how to use the music, as well. Think of it as a micro-musicality class?

    Then the freestyle can try to cater for all levels.

    SpinDr.
    Nah! That's far too sensible.

    M

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    When I first started MJ, I loved to hear all the latest disco beats, it made the whole thing feel more acceptable.

    As I'd only ever been to disco's before, the thought of partner dancing to Franck Sinatra and the like, in a church hall, with a fair quota of older men, didn't sit well with me!

    I felt I had to justify myself to my non dancing friends by saying things like, 'We dance to all the latest chart stuff! It's not old fuddy duddy music!' (Even though at home, I have a large music collection, with all sorts of different music)

    The boom boom boom of the latest chart stuff was easy to dance too and that was the main thing! As I was just about coping with simple routines!

    Style and musicality hadn't even been considered.

    Then, as I got more 'into' the dancing the pre-formed prejudices vanished, I then realised, there's more to this.

    So now, I can follow in time and the steps are becoming easier, muscle memory has clicked in.
    And I've started to 'feel' the music, play with it and experiment a bit. I hear the breaks and I'm able to do something with them.

    But sadly now, a whole night of constant boom boom boom music, has become boring and irritating!

    Can I call this progress?
    Last edited by Lory; 26th-October-2004 at 01:43 PM.
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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by Lory
    When I first started MJ, I loved to hear all the latest disco beats, it made the whole thing feel more acceptable.

    As I'd only ever been to disco's before, the thought of partner dancing to Franck Sinatra and the like, in a church hall, with a fair quota of older men, didn't sit well with me!
    /snip
    .
    .
    Can I call this progress?
    How about the older men Lory....? Is it progress when they start to look younger and more appealing ? or is that called getting old ?

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by foxylady
    How about the older men Lory....? Is it progress when they start to look younger and more appealing ? or is that called getting old ?
    I think that's on another thread, called 'time to go to specsavers!
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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    I always remember the time I attended a Blues workshop with Nigel and Nina.

    Before they did any teaching they put on a Blues track and told everyone to freestyle to it. I think most if not all of the modern jive dancers were whirling about the room and flinging their partners in catapults and all the other standard Ceroc moves, regurgitating the moves they had learnt.

    After the track was over Nigel singled out who he thought was the best dancing couple to the track. The lead was someone who had never danced before! He danced Blues instinctively to that track because he was forced to listen to the music as he had no Ceroc repertoire to draw on as an automatic response.

    My point is that we can become too automatic in our dancing at times once we have a stock of Ceroc moves to draw on. Even the best dancers do it, including competition winners. We can't unlearn a dance form, and there is no reason why we should because there's nothing wrong with the dance form itself, but by choosing to dance to something unusual we have to think more about how we are going to interpret the music and dance to it. I am not calling for Swan Lake to be played at Ceroc venues, I was merely making a point about the way some music is churned out so predictably at some venues, in a way that doesn't always challenge us to develop our musicality and style. It would though, I'm sure, be highly educational to Ceroc to Swan Lake as an experiment.

    I agree with the forum member who suggested tailoring the music to the specific part of the night - ie music suited to a beginners class, first freestyle, intermediate class, second freestyle etc. I also agree that an advanced class or workshop could introduce more complex music to make us focus more on interpretation, musicality, and style. We need to challenge ourselves, but at our own pace!

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by starlightdancer
    Iwould though, I'm sure, be highly educational to Ceroc to Swan Lake as an experiment......I agree with the forum member who suggested tailoring the music to the specific part of the night - ie music suited to a beginners class, first freestyle, intermediate class, second freestyle etc. I also agree that an advanced class or workshop could introduce more complex music to make us focus more on interpretation, musicality, and style. We need to challenge ourselves, but at our own pace!
    I agree with most of what you have said BUT how do you cater for more eclectic dance music within the current format? There is little enough freestyle time anyway on a club night and the franchsiee (and hopefully DJ) has half an eye on the commercial impact of stretching dancers. Is there any profit in it on a club night? If not ..what is the incentive for a franchisee to try to do so? They are not a charity, its a business (and a pretty succesfull one) so I'm not sure that the drive to do so will ever come from the established club set-up. (I fully apprecaite that this is a sweeping comment but I think that it covers the majority of standard MJ clubs).

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    I agree with most of what you have said BUT how do you cater for more eclectic dance music within the current format? There is little enough freestyle time anyway on a club night and the franchsiee (and hopefully DJ) has half an eye on the commercial impact of stretching dancers. Is there any profit in it on a club night? If not ..what is the incentive for a franchisee to try to do so? They are not a charity, its a business (and a pretty succesfull one) so I'm not sure that the drive to do so will ever come from the established club set-up. (I fully apprecaite that this is a sweeping comment but I think that it covers the majority of standard MJ clubs).
    You are absolutely right, Gus. From a business point of view it's not always good sense to be progressive! And I am for one always glad to see a thriving membership that I wouldn't want to scare off! So these things need to be thought through carefully by all concerned. I think London has a slight edge over the rest of us in the respect of being progressive (DJ Kenobe, Amir, Nigel and Nina, for instance), so hopefully we will learn from them and Amir won't abandon us for his ballet!

    It's a delicate balance we need to get right between keeping a thriving venue going and developing the dance potential of the punters. At the end of the day it might just come down to the instructors and the DJ throwing in that little bit extra without terrorising the punters. Curiously, people can shy away from a venue when they think dancers are too good for them, because they are just plain scared of making a fool of themselves in the presence of superior ability, or being shown up by people better than them. I don't know if that might be a reason for franchisees not to build up too much talent, even though it's amazing to see class performances? Any ideas on that anyone?

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    I agree with most of what you have said BUT how do you cater for more eclectic dance music within the current format? There is little enough freestyle time anyway on a club night and the franchsiee (and hopefully DJ) has half an eye on the commercial impact of stretching dancers. Is there any profit in it on a club night? If not ..what is the incentive for a franchisee to try to do so? They are not a charity, its a business (and a pretty succesfull one) so I'm not sure that the drive to do so will ever come from the established club set-up. (I fully apprecaite that this is a sweeping comment but I think that it covers the majority of standard MJ clubs).
    The times I have seen new and more eclectic tracks introduced sucessfully, have always been prefaced by the DJ announcing them as an experiment ie "what do you think of this", and "please give me feedback".... Somehow this allows people to experience the challenge without having to like it, which then leads to them experiencing it for what it is... Without the announcement they would have left the floor.....

    However, to add to another point made, I have been sitting at the side in one of Amir's ealing classes (because I arrived late I hasten to add) and overhearing other Hipsters punters saying "call this jive, its not what I come here to do, load of old rubbish if you ask me..." and other things of this ilk!! Some people just don't want to change or learn anything new and are happy with what they do...

    Thats the balance; keeping those who want a challenge and want to experience new stuff, and not chasing away those who are very fond of their own particular rut....

    FL

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by starlightdancer
    You are absolutely right, Gus. From a business point of view it's not always good sense to be progressive! ...

    It's a delicate balance we need to get right between keeping a thriving venue going and developing the dance potential of the punters ....


    Therein lies the crux! ... different ends of the spectrum. There will always be those poor (in my opinion) souls who fear risking anything, clinging to the safety of what they know. Then inexperienced dancers learning the ropes, and finally more experienced, risk-taking, exploring blazer trailers, thirsting for what is new and around the next corner.

    It would seem that money is to be made from the first to .... however, maybe with time, the trail-blazers will bring a few with them, eventually enough to make real difference!

    ... then again, there's always that dancing in the aisles at some classical concert!!!

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by starlightdancer
    My point is that we can become too automatic in our dancing at times once we have a stock of Ceroc moves to draw on. Even the best dancers do it, including competition winners. We can't unlearn a dance form, and there is no reason why we should because there's nothing wrong with the dance form itself, but by choosing to dance to something unusual we have to think more about how we are going to interpret the music and dance to it. I am not calling for Swan Lake to be played at Ceroc venues, I was merely making a point about the way some music is churned out so predictably at some venues, in a way that doesn't always challenge us to develop our musicality and style. It would though, I'm sure, be highly educational to Ceroc to Swan Lake as an experiment.
    Every time we want to improve, we have to 'unlearn' the way we have been doing something and 'relearn' it a different way.
    We only become automatic in our dancing if we dance the same moves to the same tunes with the same people. And who does that?
    Dance is an expression of the music; if you find the music boring and repetative, then your dancing will get boring and repetative. I think that rather than change the music to extreemes, it would be better to change the way you listen to the music:
    - Most folk will listen to the beat and let it dictate most of their dance - a low sound of base/drum or high sound of symbols.
    - If they are using "musical interpritation" then they will probably be dancing to the lyrical pitch and structure: if you whistle a tune, you whistle the lyrical path of the song and that's roughly what you dance to.
    - Listen beyond that to the background harmonys and chords that underline various sections in the music.
    - Hear the volume and 'build-up' of instruments and vocals in a track
    - Notice how some instruments almost follow the lyrical notes, but break-away and re-join it.
    - Listen for the musical 'clues' that a track is about to change; a change in chords, a double beat, a building crushendo, a lyrical gap,...

    If you can pick out all of this and add some elements of it into your dancing, then no track is boring or repetative.

    If you want a challenge in your dancing, you don't need challenging music - you just need to approach the existing music from a different angle. You don't need challenging moves - you just need to match the moves to the music. And get your partner to follow them.

    If none of the above challenges you or improves your dancing then

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    [QUOTE=Gadget].......If you can pick out all of this and add some elements of it into your dancing, then no track is boring or repetative.

    If you want a challenge in your dancing, you don't need challenging music - you just need to approach the existing music from a different angle. You don't need challenging moves - you just need to match the moves to the music. And get your partner to follow them. QUOTE]


    have you tried this approach to ....."call on me "by eric Prydz???

    if you can find anything worth interpreting then

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    Re: Challenging Your Modern Jive

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    We only become automatic in our dancing if we dance the same moves to the same tunes with the same people. And who does that?
    Well... I've found chunks of my dancing becoming automatic (eg, step back on "1") - though I only notice when trying something new where the automatic stuff conflicts with my conscious aim. I'm not sure if this is what starlight meant?

    Lovely post, btw.

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