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Thread: Dancing Advice

  1. #61
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Well, you will read the words of a hotshot!!


  2. #62
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    The bottom line is, given that classes for the most part do not address these issues, they will not get feedback from anyone except the people they dance with.

    It's up to you!!

    Chris
    And there you have it. Most classes teach to the Ceroc formula; this is the same formula everywhere (except Ceroc Plus ), just like McDonalds. And have you ever tried to get a Big Mac without the gherkin?

    At all the Ceroc classes I've been to I've not seen anyone, apart from absolute beginners, getting any feedback about their dancing from the teachers or the taxi dancers. So Chris is right, people need to get this feedback from the other dancers if they're going to progress. However, after you've got a frosty reception from the odd woman you've tried to coach you'd be forgiven for just getting on with the dancing you've paid to do.

    The one exception* I make to my personal 'no comment' rule is with beginners and people I've known since they were beginners. I know where they're up to in their learning curve and know what they should be thinking about next. And, most importantly, I've been coaching them since they started so we've got into a sort of mentoring situation where they expect the occasional hint and, more importantly, loads of encouragement


    *except for my other exception, which is where they're yanking me about or in danger of hurting themselves or me

  3. #63
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    If this is common practice, it's no wonder beginner and early intermediate guys get so confused, and with bad habits ingrained. They dance and lead badly, and are told, or led to believe that they're doing fine.
    Yes you ARE right, however, in this case we missed the class and really didn't know what he was trying to do -(it is a long way from Brighton to where we were going it took about an hour and we unfortunately left a little late)

    Maybe the answer is to do the class or at least see it, in order to help the beginners etc. I will make sure (if possible) to do this in future

    .........and are told, or led to believe that they're doing fine.
    I think by the pained look on our faces he must have known something was wrong
    Last edited by Minnie M; 12th-October-2004 at 11:17 AM.


    --ooOoo--
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    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  4. #64
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    I let him believe it was my fault he couldn't lead it
    ... or he let you believe that you had let him believe that it was his fault he couldn't lead it. I know I do that all the time - it just makes life easier. Then again, perhaps my partners only let me believe that I've let them believe that they've let me believe that it was their fault that I coudn't lead it.

    Oh, what a tangled web we weave.

  5. #65
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I fear that are multiple dangers in following the above advice too stringently;
    - pawning off your own poor dancing to your partner
    - offering unsolicited, incorrect, or poor advice
    - mistakeing or missreading innocent actions
    - a single error due to one partner may be blown out of proportion
    - your comments may destroy that a person's hard won confidence
    Sorry, what advice? I'm not suggesting people do any of these things. Please don't read so much that I haven't said into my posts?

    I'm talking specifically about the following:

    - experienced dancers such as Minnie, allowing beginners to believe that their bad leading is not their fault, purely to avoid conflict and bad feeling. The guy in her example has gone away thinking that he was dancing well and leading accurately when he wasn't. So he will continue to do it wrong.

    - ladies putting up with pain and perving.

    I certainly don't condone "advice" during freestyle dancing... although I'm happy to receive it, I don't give it unless the lady is clearly a beginner and struggling with something that's easy to fix and will result in a lot more enjoyment for her.

    Chris

  6. #66
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    I think by the pained look on our faces he must have known something was wrong
    Unfortunately I am convinced this is not true.

    If it was true that most guys could read ladies' expressions, then for sure there would be less yanking and perving going on.

    But for the most part, I fear that many guys are not able to discern the difference between that fixed rictus of pain, and a genuine smile of enjoyment.

    Chris

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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    - ladies putting up with pain and perving.
    I only inflict pain and perving on request - as Lory mentioned on another thread

  8. #68
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I only inflict pain and perving on request - as Lory mentioned on another thread
    Absolutely.

    Nothing I've ever said should be interpreted as implying that wanted perving is unacceptable. It's only the unwanted perving that's bad.

    If you want it, you should have it, is my view.


  9. #69
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Minnie's right, we are going round in circles here. There's no definitive answer to this debate, IMHO.

    Some people like feedback, others don't.
    Some people like it sometimes.

    I have a lot of sympathy with both Gadget & Chris A's posts above.


    I want to improve and so must accept criticism, but not under all circumstances.
    I need to find ways to help my partners but don't want to be rude or damage their confidence.
    I usually know if there has been an error in the lead, but don't have the expertise or the authority to begin to help put it right. Time I learnt to lead the basic moves myself, I think.

    Thanks to those people who have suggested concrete ways of tactfully exploring the learning partnership, which I find very useful. (Sorry, just like school, but I'm trying to express it in a way which will offend the least number of people.) I know I find it very hard (and not only in the dance sphere, it's happened in climbing) to tell a man when he is doing something wrong, about some objective issue, (I'm not talking emotions here) even when I know he is. I have this expectation that either he must know better than me ( this is 2004 not 1904) or I think he's so fragile that his ego will collapse totally at being corrected by a mere woman. So I shut up most of the time. Or get involved in these weird manipulative sexual politics as described so honestly by Minnie and MartinHarper.


    (Ducks head, as verbal missiles fly over.)

  10. #70
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    I do, and it happens very occasionally, stop a dance with a beginner to tell her that she is dancing dangerously, even though I know a teacher, taxi dancer, or painful experience is going to tell her the same thing.

    I do often prompt my partner that if I am doing something she does not like to tell me.

    One technique for giving advice with less danger of offence is to praise good practise in others. "That's ****, I love dancing with him, his touch is as light as a feather."

  11. #71
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat
    There's no definitive answer to this debate, IMHO.

    Some people like feedback, others don't.
    Some people like it sometimes.
    .........

    I totally accept that there are lots of grey areas here. Where erring on the side of saying nothing is probably fine. Where a smile and a thank you for a dance that wasn't quite perfect is completely appropriate.

    I'm not talking about these grey areas though.

    If it hurts, you shouldn't pretend it didn't. MJ should be a pain-free activity!!!

    I'm bored now, though, so I'll get back in my box (for now ). Thanks to CJ for his predictably helpful contribution

    Chris

  12. #72
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Slightly different angle - though open to the same subjective responses, I'm sure ...

    When can/should you ask for advice?

    Sounds silly, I know, but what I mean is - I've sometimes had dances with a teacher or expert dancer (NOT referring to dancing with them at a venue where they've just been teaching) and I've been desperate to ask for advice but felt that I shouldn't.

    Basically, if they're out for a social night's dancing, just the same as I am, why should they give up their free time to coach me? I'm not talking about specifics - 'how do I do such-and-such'. I'm really just wanting general feeback on what I need to work on.

    I have to admit, I have on occasion asked David B for tips when we're just having a social dance. But, in general, I feel very guilty about doing this. I guess if I wanted personal feedback, I should pay for private classes really - do you think?

    Rachel

  13. #73
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Thanks to CJ for his predictably helpful contribution

    Chris
    It was an honour and privelage just to be in the same cyberspace, breathing the same cyberair, with such a legend.

    I look forward to when the experience enriches my dancing and, indeed, my life in general.



    Until then, I am your mortal, humble, but well meaning CJ.

  14. #74
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    "That's ****, I love dancing with him, his touch is as light as a feather."
    I think this is particularly good, because it says "I love dancing with him", rather than "he is lovely to dance with". I know a couple of very experienced women who prefer a touch considerably heavier than a feather. I'm still trying to decide if they are the exception or the rule.

  15. #75
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock
    enriches my dancing and, indeed, my life in general.
    Don't worry, I'll only ever do either of these by accident

  16. #76
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisA
    Don't worry, I'll only ever do either of these by accident
    I meant Gadget.

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    Re: Dancing Advice

    {CJ: }

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel
    When can/should you ask for advice?
    When do I ask? When I see someone I respect sitting chatting, I wait for an opening and ask them. (Or ask them to dance if they are female, then it depends on the song if I ask on the way to the floor or from the floor )
    Generally I will ask at workshops or perhaps during a lesson if I can't get something.

    When am I receptive to being asked? Almost any time, with the exception of in the middle of a dance - unless it's a begginer who is struggling with a yo-yo and hatchback, or first move, or similar; then I try to lead very clearly and incorporate it into the rest of the dance. I think that the best way I can explain how the lady should move is to get her to relax, trust me, and follow what I lead. (I can show begginer's the basics, but anything more advanced, I re-direct to a teacher or better dancer than me)

    When do I approach people with the view of giving advice? When I see people standing at the side, practicing and trying to get things right in their heads; if they look like they are getting it wrong, I will hover untill I am sure I can help - then give some advice and leave them to it.


    I think I am approached to advise about once a month, but only seek it out about once a year I figure that I've got enough little things I'm working on improving by my self without asking for anyone else's opinion on where I could improve. I know if I've improved (or not ) by the reaction from my partners and the tactile feedback through the lead.
    I'm given advice when I ask for it or within a workshop. Seldom (if ever) have I been given unsolicited advice, so I don't really know how I would react to it.
    Last edited by Gadget; 12th-October-2004 at 01:20 PM.

  18. #78
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    When do I ask? When I see someone I respect sitting chatting, I wait for an opening and ask them. (Or ask them to dance if they are female, then it depends on the song if I ask on the way to the floor or from the floor )
    Generally I will ask at workshops or perhaps during a lesson if I can't get something. ...
    Thanks, Gadget. But, outside of lessons and workshops, are any of the people you ask teachers? What I mean is, is it ever right to ask teachers for advice when they're 'off-duty'?
    Rachel

  19. #79
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel
    is it ever right to ask teachers for advice when they're 'off-duty'?
    Teachers are NEVER off duty

  20. #80
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceroc Jock
    I meant Gadget.
    Whatever. I meant you

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