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Thread: Dancing Advice

  1. #41
    Ceroc Teacher Gordon J Pownall's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Now, who should I ask for advice on that one: the relevant teachers, or my fellow dancers?
    Why would you need to ask for advice - make your own mind up and base your decision upon your own experience as opposed to anothers perception of what is good for themselves....or what they think would be good for you...

    You only need someone to hold your hand when you are dancing with them - get to the venue first...!!!!

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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Here's an example: On Mondays, I have a choice of a Ceroc Cheltenham session, a JazzJive session in Malvern, or a more advanced JazzJive session in Worcester. So, the question arises, which of these sessions is going to be best for my dancing? Now, who should I ask for advice on that one: the relevant teachers, or my fellow dancers?
    Unless you can be at both, then compare the results from both, you will never know. You may go to the "advanced" one and they teach something you know all about already, the other "standard" one outlines a few things you hadn't thought on.

    Pick which to go to for the company, the music, the dancing, and what you think on the communication ability of the teachers. Untill the class has passed, you are not going to know what (if any) impact it will have on your dancing; therefore it is pointless to make a decision on which to go to based on this criteria.

    Ask advice on social issues from your fellow dancers. Ask advice on your dancing from teachers. Ask yourself which event you would rather go to.

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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Northants Girly
    Mmmm . . . wouldn't it be wonderful if us girlies could have a girls only thread? Franck??
    Err...just what I'd been thinking! But it'd never be allowed. For one thing there'd have to be a Men-only thread in the interests of equality. And would us girlies like that? .......well, maybe not.

  4. #44
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat
    For one thing there'd have to be a Men-only thread in the interests of equality. And would us girlies like that? .......well, maybe not.
    It might be an interesting insight!
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  5. #45
    Registered User Magic Hans's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    ...
    Here's an example: On Mondays, I have a choice of a Ceroc Cheltenham session, a JazzJive session in Malvern, or a more advanced JazzJive session in Worcester. So, the question arises, which of these sessions is going to be best for my dancing? Now, who should I ask for advice on that one: the relevant teachers, or my fellow dancers?
    errrrr ..... go? and see what happens? .... or maybe I'm looking for a more complicated answer?

  6. #46
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    The trend on this thread does seem to be that (in general) guys welcome being given unsolicited feedback and (in general) girls don't. Odd, because the myth is that guys have fragile egos that would be crushed by honest feedback. More advanced guys appear to have learnt that most girls don't welcome unsolicited feedback... a lesson I've yet to absorb.
    Well, several ladies have categorically stated that they DO welcome unsolicited feedback. And it seems to me that several others have said that they don't like it partly because they resent men who assume that the lady is in error without realising or considering that it might be their own leading which has caused the mistake. The follower is very much at the mercy of the leader- unless you want us to backlead.


    For myself, I would listen to any criticism that was made of my dancing, because it's in my own interests to do so, although I wouldn't be able to stop myself being irritated if it was delivered in a patronising manner, or by someone whose leading didn't fill me with confidence. If it came from someone who was clearly a far more skilled dancer than myself I would listen VERY carefully indeed, even if it wasn't a very comfortable experience for me.


    It's unfortunate that a lot of the questions guys have to ask to figure out how to improve can come across as criticism. For example, more defensive ladies interpret a question like "Why did you spin?" as an attack on their following skills. More helpful ladies just answer the question. Really helpful ladies will take a comment like "you should have spun" and answer the question hidden behind it.
    I should say that my above remarks only apply to random comments from strangers. I am happy to talk to anyone who wants to about why certain moves have worked/didn't work, interpreting the lead, what is expected of me as a follower etc, in a spirit of friendly and constructive partnership. Perhaps it would stop me saying "Did I do that right?", "Was that what you wanted me to do?" every 5 seconds.

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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat
    For one thing there'd have to be a Men-only thread in the interests of equality.
    But we already have.

  8. #48
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    B****r. I wasn't supposed to let them know. Sorry guys.

  9. #49
    Registered User Rhythm King's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal
    I have been getting a lot of unsolicted advice recently. I am not sure how my dancing is doing after it, but my confidence is at an all time low.
    Having enjoyed dancing with you at several different venues and seen you dancing with others - Nigel Anderson springs to mind as an example - I don't think you have anything to worry about in the style, or quality of your dancing . If people are giving you advice, you can decide whether it's of value and make use of it, or leave it behind on the floor, when you walk off. After all it's your dance and your enjoyment. If you have difficulty following someone, perhaps you should consider it's their lead which may be unclear. Maybe you could give them some unsolicited feedback...

    As for Minnie M, I think you're a fab dancer too and am surprised anyone would have any reason to comment other than favourably

    I have actually started asking certain dancers for feedback on the "R-K experience", to try to improve the style and quality of my own leading. Sometimes during class and sometimes after a freestyle dance, particularly if a particular move is dependant on subtle leading technique.

    I have to say I'm finding threads like this one very useful for my own personal development, with regard to what others think, but might not say, on the dancefloor. This includes both leaders and followers. I find myself constantly adjusting my technique and etiquette in response to matters discussed here, which I've never seriously thought about before.

    R-K x

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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Some women hand bounce by default, to varying degrees. Would you like to dance with a guy who allowed you so little freedom you don't even get a say in the level of hand bounce? Or with a guy who concentrated on suppressing hand bouncing to the exclusion of, say, floorcraft?
    Women (followers) give us their permission to lead them. If women are bouncing their hand or doing anything else which you haven't led, you haven't really been given their permission or at best you've been given conditional permission - "you can lead me but I'm going to do all these things you haven't led".

    When leading you do give your partner the freedom to express themselves - but you give it and take it away as the dance progresses. For the lady to hijack you is a legitimate action too. But for her to have a perpetual bounce that doesn't fit the moves you want to do is, IMHO, completely wrong - especially if you don't want to do any moves, maybe just pausing or preparing for the next move.

    On the other hand, there are many ladies who do bounce their hand in perpetual motion marking every beat, sometimes the off-beat too! As a guy this is difficult, do you suppress that bounce by holding your hand still? Do you say something? Me? I try to supress the bounce, if that doesn't work I go into the dancing equivalent of 'safe mode' and do nice easy moves, try to smile and say thank you for the lovely dance - then quickly find a new partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    My father once told me: "don't accept responsibility without power". I'm happy to take some responsibility for suppressing my partner's flaws, if that's what she wants, provided that it comes with the power to give her unsolicited advice.
    How do any of us know what a woman wants? We can't assume that she wants someone to take "responsibility for suppressing my partner's flaws". Especially when we consider that, up 'til the time she received the "unsolicited advice" she was in blissful ignorance.
    Last edited by Andy McGregor; 11th-October-2004 at 03:37 PM.

  11. #51
    Registered User Lynn's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat
    For myself, I would listen to any criticism that was made of my dancing, because it's in my own interests to do so, although I wouldn't be able to stop myself being irritated if it was delivered in a patronising manner, or by someone whose leading didn't fill me with confidence. If it came from someone who was clearly a far more skilled dancer than myself I would listen VERY carefully indeed, even if it wasn't a very comfortable experience for me.
    Yes – the attitude and manner in which advice is given is what matters to me. If someone is merely criticising my style because its different to theirs, or telling me something to highlight the fact that they are much better than me, then its not a pleasant experience, but this is rare.

    If a better dancer gives me feedback, advice, suggestions for improvement in a nice manner I take it as -
    a) someone being helpful telling me useful things which will improve my dancing, and
    b) an indication that they think I can do better, which if you look at it that way, can be a vote of confidence.

  12. #52
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidB
    B****r. I wasn't supposed to let them know. Sorry guys.
    Well for heavens sake don't add insult to injury by letting on that we know the password for the girls-only thread. You know... the one they're pretending doesn't exist...

    Oops

    DOH !

  13. #53
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I try to supress the bounce, if that doesn't work I go into the dancing equivalent of 'safe mode' and do nice easy moves, try to smile and say thank you for the lovely dance - then quickly find a new partner.
    And for the most part, so do I. Except in very rare cases where, for whatever reason, I'm confident of not overstepping the bounds of acceptability.

    And I would guess 99% or more of people are exactly the same - none of us wants to cause offence, we are all vulnerable to criticism, and feel bad if our failings are brought to our attention, and so mostly we don't do it to others.

    The net result, though, is that people will dance week in, week out, and hear a criticism with fewer than 1% of partners. So it's ever so easy to assume that because almost all the feedback is superficially good, everything is fine.

    Clearly it isn't, or at least not necessarily, just because people say nice things, and I try very hard to perceive the truth beyond the thank-yous.

    For my dancing to improve, I need to be as sensitive as possible to this less-than-1% - otherwise it's too easy to assume that because most people say nothing untoward to me, everything is fine.

    I used to dance with lots of people who said nothing about all my poor leading and lack of musicality. Then a lovely lady said a few choice words and despite feeling an inch high, I set off on the long painful process of gradual improvement.

    Difficult though it still is, I'd rather endure the truth. Fortunately it's usually pretty easy to tell when it's meant nicely.

    Chris

  14. #54
    Registered User Jon L's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    Women (followers) give us their permission to lead them. If women are bouncing their hand or doing anything else which you haven't led, you haven't really been given their permission or at best you've been given conditional permission - "you can lead me but I'm going to do all these things you haven't led".

    When leading you do give your partner the freedom to express themselves - but you give it and take it away as the dance progresses. For the lady to hijack you is a legitimate action too. But for her to have a perpetual bounce that doesn't fit the moves you want to do is, IMHO, completely wrong - especially if you don't want to do any moves, maybe just pausing or preparing for the next move.

    On the other hand, there are many ladies who do bounce their hand in perpetual motion marking every beat, sometimes the off-beat too! As a guy this is difficult, do you suppress that bounce by holding your hand still? Do you say something? Me? I try to supress the bounce, if that doesn't work I go into the dancing equivalent of 'safe mode' and do nice easy moves, try to smile and say thank you for the lovely dance - then quickly find a new partner.

    Dear me! I would have appeared to open up a whole can of worms here

    Minnie - I apologise if I have gone in the bad books

    The original quote of this thread was after an experience at Hammersmith last Saturday. I wish to point out that the comment was not made in a nasty way at all - Those of you who know me well enough, should know that yes I am quite a "call a spade a spade " person, but I don't in any way have a malicious or arrogant streak or "hotshot" streak in me (at least I don't think I do) some of you may differ with me

    Please note that the "tip" was made at the end of the record, and not during the middle of it and certainly not stopping to "teach" a move - that is totally unacceptable - I am not a teacher and would not even pretend to be one.

    the actual piece of advice was one that Lily gave me, which I am very grateful for, and also Alina (Mr. Lizard's former partner) paid me a compliment about improving on it.

    As to the validity of the "comment" itself, I refer to Andy's point above. Both women out of interest were really pleased for the tip, and noticed a difference and said so - I can only assume they were telling the truth.
    Last edited by Jon L; 11th-October-2004 at 07:09 PM.

  15. #55
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    That's it - can't carry this on any more as we are going around in circles. It's a shame we don't have time to read ALL the posts on a thread before making comments - and I am sorry to say I do the same myself
    Last edited by Minnie M; 11th-October-2004 at 07:27 PM.


    --ooOoo--
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Hans
    go? and see what happens?
    I have been to all three venues, and I certainly based my decision in large part upon my own impressions. However, I also got advice and thoughts from other dancers, including some facing similar choices. Maybe that's just my learning style. *shrug* If I thought my local teachers were the fount of all dancing wisdom, I wouldn't be reading this forum...

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat
    Several ladies have categorically stated that they DO welcome unsolicited feedback.
    Very true. I was trying to talk about an overall trend - it seems to me, from the admittedly rather biased sample of folks posting to this thread, that on the whole, male dancers tend to be more receptive to unsolicited feedback than female dancers, in general. There are many exceptions, of course. I wouldn't have commented, were it not that the trend on this thread matches my experience. I was kind of wondering - do other dancers have the same experience?

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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    That's it - can't carry this on any more as we are going around in circles. It's a shame we don't have time to read ALL the posts on a thread before making comments - and I am sorry to say I do the same myself
    OK .. I apologise now if I say what has aid before but the painkillers are just starting to kick in.

    I've just got back from a 'social' game of volleyball ... first game I've played in a number of years ... BUT, at some point in my dark past, I used to be OK at it and my mind remembers what to do even if my un-conditioned body can no longer meet the expectations put upon it. SO WHAT I hear you cry ... WELL ..... for two hours I went through an inner hell. The people were playing for fun .... if they managed to keep the ball in the air that was OK, three touches was a major achievement ... but there was no technique , court positioning or correct hitting of the ball. The mistakes they were making were simple ... 15 minutes coaching and I could have vastly improved what they were doing ... I found myself repeatedly saying things like "relax", "use two hands" "use les force" .. all things meant to encourage and guide ... and probably as annoying as hell to the recipient.

    It took me a few sets to realise that I'd fallen into the same trap as many in this debate who like to offer advice ... with all the best intention in the world. What if the recipient DOESN’T WANT ANY? Yes you may be right, yes you may be able to help ... but a good many dancers just want to enjoy not get lectured or corrected.

    Learning point? Dunno. I think the right or wrong rests more on the intended recipient than on the expertise (perceived or otherwise) of the advisor. If someone doesn’t want to be lectured, then even word from Viktor may not be welcome. Maybe its a good idea to suss out whether the person you are dancing with would really appreciate advice before you start giving it.

    PS .... come to realise that volleyball REALLY hurts ... especialy when you forget to land on your feet and instead use an assortment of other body parts as landing points ... especially the back of your head

  18. #58
    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    That's it - can't carry this on any more as we are going around in circles. It's a shame we don't have time to read ALL the posts on a thread before making comments - and I am sorry to say I do the same myself
    This thread is really getting to me now

    I started it so, in I have read ALL the posts, and I (IMO) have come to the conclusion and possibly changed my mind a little that :-

    [ Unsolicited advice is sometimes welcome by both sexes depending who gives it AND should only be given in the class by someone the recipitant either knows and respects (if not the teacher/taxi) and shouldn't be given during a weekend social night. This includes "talking" a move through- UNLESS asked for

    I have to admit the unsolicited advice I have been given in the past has usually been on social nights and ALWAYS from partners who assume by looking at me that I am a beginner

    Last Sunday I went to a Ceroc night and had with a very new dancer who had never met me - talking the class move through with me (which I missed) but still couldn't lead it. It was very frustrating but I let him believe it was my fault he couldn't lead it He next danced with my friend (a good dancer and he had also not met before) and the same thing happened. What I am trying to say, is that there are some moves that are a little complicated to lead and this is were help is required, I assume this is when the taxi dancer should be at hand, they were certainly a help to me when learning but do you HAVE to ask

    Also, the chap was obviously a new dancer, so why was he in the intermediate class ? Or was it because he is a slow learner as it appears to be the length of time that denotes you moving up to beginner to intermediate (or is this a theme for another thread)
    Last edited by Minnie M; 12th-October-2004 at 08:09 AM.


    --ooOoo--
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    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

  19. #59
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Dancing Advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    It was very frustrating but I let him believe it was my fault he couldn't lead it. He next danced with my friend (a good dancer and he had also not met before) and the same thing happened
    If this is common practice, it's no wonder beginner and early intermediate guys get so confused, and with bad habits ingrained. They dance and lead badly, and are told, or led to believe that they're doing fine.

    And if people get yanked about by guys that think they're doing the right thing providing a "strong" or "firm" lead, and the ladies don't tell them (and even worse, keep on smiling regardless), then the guys won't ever know they're doing it.

    Similarly perving. If the girls just smile sweetly, say thank you, and then just avoid the wrongdoers (or worse still, continue to dance with them but attempt to hold them off), these guys will never get the message that their behaviour is not acceptable.

    I'm sorry ladies, as time goes by the more I become convinced that in some ways you make a rod for your own backs. If you want guys to lead well, with consideration and without feeling you up, they need a lot more of the right messages getting through.

    Which is NO to the infliction of pain, and NO to groping or other types of contact that you don't want. Mostly the pervs are not nice guys, they are predatory types that will not change. When they get told that their behaviour is unacceptable clearly enough and often enough, they tend to leave a venue and pop up at another one where they aren't known so well.

    But the bad leaders and even the yankers are mostly decent guys trying to do their best. If they get good, constructive feedback they will try to improve - and most of them will succeed at least to some degree and will then give you a more enjoyable dance.

    The bottom line is, given that classes for the most part do not address these issues, they will not get feedback from anyone except the people they dance with.

    It's up to you!!

    Chris
    Last edited by ChrisA; 12th-October-2004 at 10:12 AM.

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    Re: Dancing Advice

    I fear that are multiple dangers in following the above advice too stringently;
    - pawning off your own poor dancing to your partner
    - offering unsolicited, incorrect, or poor advice
    - mistakeing or missreading innocent actions
    - a single error due to one partner may be blown out of proportion
    - your comments may destroy that a person's hard won confidence

    I'm not saying that painfull or sleasy leads should be ignored, just that discression, courtesy and a positive attitude should be allowed to taint any feedback you feel obliged to impart to your partner. {Chris's post came accross a bit harsh IMHO}

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