Dancing Advice

[jivecat]

The one that gets to me is when, in the middle of a fab track, the guy leads something, you follow his lead but it doesn't end up where he thought it should, he then stops dancing to "teach" you the move that you obviously don't know

Drives me totally nuts!

[jivecat]

I still think it is impolite to comment on your partners dance in freestyle dancing if you have never met before.

I agree. It's very easy to cause offence and probably a bit unfair to judge someone after one dance at a freestyle. It might be a little different if you're dancing with someone very inexperienced or much less experienced and your comments are quite clearly going to be seen as friendly and supportive.

Another gripe of mine, is a lead talking a move through to you before doing it - my philosophy is "If it ain't leadable - Don't lead it" - once again this refers to freestyle dancing, not during a class.

I think this links in with Sheena's complaint. I don't always object to being talked through a lead if it really helps either him or me to get the move, but if it seriously interrupts the flow of the dance I think that my partner should check with me that I'm happy on that occasion to spend the time doing some practice. And I certainly wouldn't be if that was my fave track. But I probably would be during the next one, especially if it was a c**p one that wasn't much use for proper dancing.

[Lynn]

PS: Compliments are ALWAYS welcome

Did a tango class this afternoon and one of the dancers was giving me advice - as this was the third class and I just started today, I was happy for any helpful comments (sorry, I know this thread is really about comments in freestyle). When dancing with the guy again near the end of the class he commented on how I was getting it right, had applied what he had said and was dancing better as a result and seemed to be enjoying dancing with me. It does make you feel good!

[Minnie M]

With reference to another thread, Heaven only knows what this guy is like in bed!

Going to re-instate that one - has always been a good conversation piece for us girlies

[bigdjiver]

I still think it is impolite to comment on your partners dance in freestyle dancing if you have never met before.

As a leader I value criticism far more than I dislike it. I was at the Jook Jive blues workshop yesterday, this one led by Peter Phillips. I got a lot from that, but, and the justified criticism that I got from a couple of partners , will also improve me as a dancer.

Another gripe of mine, is a lead talking a move through to you before doing it - my philosophy is "If it ain't leadable - Don't lead it" - once again this refers to freestyle dancing, not during a class.

Which brings me to an example of useful criticism. I try to ensure that every move I do is leadable to someone that has never done it before.

There are lots of partners that love some surprises, and little dance "jokes". I tried to strut my stuff with a very good and well experienced dancer that I had not danced with before. I was told that she liked to know what was expected of her before she did a move. That is a perfectly reasonable criticism, and I will work on fitting my style to partner.

[spindr]

In general I don't like verbal leads.

There are two occasions when I'll use one:
1). To ask the lady to stay on the spot when I do a half-nelson -- simply because when I'm turning (bent double) I don't want my head to collide with her hip (hurts me) or with anything softer (hurts her).
2). I haven't worked out a non-verbal way to lead a follower *not* to ronde -- if the floor's crowded, I may note this and suggest we both take small steps.

I would certainly never make any "helpful comments" -- I may think a few -- as I think that it's just rude

SpinDr.

[DavidB]

I rarely give unsolicited advice. Freestyles are for dancing. Classes and workshops are for the teacher to teach.

Be careful about soliciting advice as well. If you are that keen to learn, then ask the teacher for help. Why rely on 'advice' from someone who probably needs just as much help as you do? I've heard lots of 'advice' given. 80% of it makes me cringe.

[Magic Hans]

Strong Objection: I respond poorly to being told what to do! Especially in the arena of style.

"Try doing it this way", or "What might happen if you do that?" works far more effectively for me than "This is how you do it!", "No! Not like that! Like this!"

.... as previously mentioned, the manner of the feedback can affect its effectiveness.

Even more so for style: We all have our unique personality which ultimately reflects on the dance floor. I can only ever imitate some else badly. Some dance skills (say lindy), lend themselves to a certain type of style, which I can only discover for myself .... with time and practice! I totally resent someone else trying to impose their style on me!! .... not that I react badly, I simply take no notice! ... it's easier that way!

[Minnie M]

I rarely give unsolicited advice. Freestyles are for dancing. Classes and workshops are for the teacher to teach.

Be careful about soliciting advice as well. If you are that keen to learn, then ask the teacher for help. Why rely on 'advice' from someone who probably needs just as much help as you do? I've heard lots of 'advice' given. 80% of it makes me cringe.

exactly what I have been trying to say

Thank you David

[Lory]

I have to say, I welcome advice, (styling. footwork, new moves or just how to make anything better) if it comes from a dancer who I regard as better or more experienced that me, in fact, I feel flattered that they've taken the time to bother with me.

What I do object to, is when someone who isn't that good IMO, leading me badly, then telling me where I'm going wrong.

[Gadget]

I have been getting a lot of unsolicted advice recently. I am not sure how my dancing is doing after it, but my confidence is at an all time low.

Please come allong on Tuesday - I have never failed to have an exquisite dance with you... well perhaps one or two; but the rest more than make up for it

[Lory]

With reference to another thread, Heaven only knows what this guy is like in bed!

OH noooo! I've just read this! How am I supposed to dance with this guy again, without having that question constantly running in my head!

Too late, I'm having visions already! Still at least he leave you in no doubt as to what he liked!

[Gadget]

Which brings me to an example of useful criticism. I try to ensure that every move I do is leadable to someone that has never done it before.

me too. More interesting is trying to work out how to lead moves that you initially think "cool - but impossable to lead in freestyle". Normally it involves a completley different way into it.

There are lots of partners that love some surprises, and little dance "jokes". I tried to strut my stuff with a very good and well experienced dancer that I had not danced with before. I was told that she liked to know what was expected of her before she did a move. That is a perfectly reasonable criticism, and I will work on fitting my style to partner.

Is it? Perhaps you should direct her to the "shouty man" MinnieM was going on about How much of a warning does she need? You're leading, she's following.
Yes; tailor your dancing to match your partner - but I think you have to be careful where and how much you comprimise.

I think that the above criticism may have been direced more towards giving a clearer lead into the "surprise" moves rather than dropping them completley; I know I have a problem with giving the ladies enough time to react to some "different" leads. But I am now aware of it and try to smooth the leads into them a bit- having a specific move beforehand that works well and gets the lady traveling in the right direction first.

[MartinHarper]

The trend on this thread does seem to be that (in general) guys welcome being given unsolicited feedback and (in general) girls don't. Odd, because the myth is that guys have fragile egos that would be crushed by honest feedback. More advanced guys appear to have learnt that most girls don't welcome unsolicited feedback... a lesson I've yet to absorb.

It's unfortunate that a lot of the questions guys have to ask to figure out how to improve can come across as criticism. For example, more defensive ladies interpret a question like "Why did you spin?" as an attack on their following skills. More helpful ladies just answer the question. Really helpful ladies will take a comment like "you should have spun" and answer the question hidden behind it.

If you are that keen to learn, then ask the teacher for help. Why rely on 'advice' from someone who probably needs just as much help as you do?

Where to start...

During classes, asking the teacher questions interrupts everyone else's learning. Outside classes, the teacher is normally very busy. Some questions are politically awkward to ask a teacher. Teachers only have their own perspective. Teachers haven't spent much time dancing with me. Poor teachers forget what it was like to be a poor dancer. I already have a good idea what the teacher thinks by listening to them in class. Teachers tend to be tactful. Teachers don't recommend their competitors. Teachers tend to oversimplify. Teachers tend to repeat the "party line".

*shrug* You did ask...

[Northants Girly]

Going to re-instate that one - has always been a good conversation piece for us girlies

Mmmm . . . wouldn't it be wonderful if us girlies could have a girls only thread? Franck??

[DavidB]

Teachers only have their own perspective. Teachers haven't spent much time dancing with me. Poor teachers forget what it was like to be a poor dancer. I already have a good idea what the teacher thinks by listening to them in class. Teachers tend to be tactful. Teachers don't recommend their competitors. Teachers tend to oversimplify. Teachers tend to repeat the "party line".

??? If the teachers are so bad, why are you going to their lessons?

[bigdjiver]

More interesting is trying to work out how to lead moves that you initially think "cool - but impossable to lead in freestyle". Normally it involves a completley different way into it.

There was a simple move I considered "educated" (Simon Selmon's term for a move both partners must know) in Peter's Blues workshop. I tried to go through it very slowly working out just how to try to set a lady who had not done it before off in the right direction but I ran into partner after partner who just set off on their own, then "helpfully" guided me into the next move because they thought I had not got it.

The blues attracts ladies who like to express themselves, and being in command. One thing I think I have learned from this workshop is next time to tell partner that I am going very slowly because I am trying to do three different new things at once, (legs here, body there, and what's coming next), and, at that particular moment, helpful advice is not required, or indeed, helpful.

Yes; tailor your dancing to match your partner - but I think you have to be careful where and how much you comprimise.

I regret I must correct the typo. Where arguments with ladies are concerned "comprimise" is spelt "give in".

[Lounge Lizard]

Where to start...
...snip... Outside classes, the teacher is normally very busy. Some questions are politically awkward to ask a teacher. Teachers only have their own perspective. Teachers haven't spent much time dancing with me. Poor teachers forget what it was like to be a poor dancer. I already have a good idea what the teacher thinks by listening to them in class. Teachers tend to be tactful. Teachers don't recommend their competitors. Teachers tend to oversimplify. Teachers tend to repeat the "party line".
*shrug* You did ask...

When I was at school (way way back - I remember the religious studies class about a man meeting a stranger and asking what the next town was like - cos the people in my last town were boring and miserable (sumfing like that) the stranger advised they are the same in the next town.
The gist of the story (which we all probably know) is people and places are what we make them.

Are you sure ALL teachers fit the above description or just the ones at places YOU go to
LL

[Gadget]

During classes, asking the teacher questions interrupts everyone else's learning. Outside classes, the teacher is normally very busy. Some questions are politically awkward to ask a teacher. Teachers only have their own perspective. Teachers haven't spent much time dancing with me. Poor teachers forget what it was like to be a poor dancer. I already have a good idea what the teacher thinks by listening to them in class. Teachers tend to be tactful. Teachers don't recommend their competitors. Teachers tend to oversimplify. Teachers tend to repeat the "party line".

You don't dance in Scotland, do you?
- During a lesson, you shouldn't need to ask a question; the good teachers will notice when a class is struggling about a specific part of a move.
- Outside of a class, the teacher is busy doing exactly what you want them to do; being approached by people who may have had trouble with a bit of a move and asking how to get it right.
- ?Politically awkward? "I saw this great move at another venue - how do you do it?" Most teachers will take it as feedback that another venue has a good class, but poorer teacher; a compliment. And will probably help you.
- The teacher's perspective is probably the best one to go on; they will have had more experiance in where a move can go wrong and how to fix it.
- People who spend a lot of time dancing with you will know your patterns and habbits, they will know your dancing; how can they be expected to give impartial and accurate advice on how to improve it?
- No teacher I know of ever "forgets" what it's like to be a begginer; this is their primary target audience and they dance with them every class night.
- What the teacher says in class is for a general audience; if you talk to them one-on-one, they will have a more specific idea of what you are looking for and be able to help you better. The advice given here may be slightly different (or more in-depth) than from the stage.
- Teachers are as tactfull as they need to be. IMHO it's one of the hardest calls a teacher has to make; just how much criticism a dancer can take, and take well.
- I would say that any teacher who thinks that you need specialist training, would direct you to a specialist. But appart from that, they will show you what they know and help you to the best of their ability; if you are beyond their ability to help I'm sure that they would reffer you.
- If a teacher appears to "over simplify" in one-on-one tutorage, then it's because you haven't got the basics right. If they are not teaching you what you want to learn, perhaps it's what you need to learn first?
- A teacher will normally teach the moves they know. If they are a Ceroc teacher, then they will teach a move the way that Ceroc perform the move. {well, some of them } I don't really see where the "party line" affects anything they would be teaching you.

A regular dancer knows how they lead or follow. They can feel where something is going wrong, but their diagnosis if how to solve it may be completley off the mark.

[MartinHarper]

If the teachers are so bad, why are you going to their lessons?

I didn't say they were bad. Many of the things I mentioned are positives: eg, teachers are busy because they are good. Others are facts of life: eg, competition. A few are occupational hazards of teaching: eg, simplification.
I find advice from teachers useful. I also find advice (solicited or otherwise) from other dancers useful. All sorts of advice need to be treated with caution.

Here's an example: On Mondays, I have a choice of a Ceroc Cheltenham session, a JazzJive session in Malvern, or a more advanced JazzJive session in Worcester. So, the question arises, which of these sessions is going to be best for my dancing? Now, who should I ask for advice on that one: the relevant teachers, or my fellow dancers?