Intro of New Categories.

[denise]

Maybe it would be a good idea to say that anyone winning a cat. must move up to the next cat. the following year in order to give others a chance. I see this as being fair. Obviously the advanced is the highest but if people really want to be serious then they can go for the 'open' . Simple again!!!
Denise

[Wendy]

(We need a wee blushing /bashful face Franck !!! )

OK strictly speaking it's not a style / category/ type of music etc - it's more of a well... connection... harmony ... thing that happens. A kind of Haggen Daas thing... or a Magnum ice cream thing.... a cappuccino with just the right amount of coffee/milk/froth/chocolate/cinnamon .... a buttery Chardonnay ... a perfect moment when the music is just right... the styles of the dancers complement each other.... there is chemistry .... you know.... all that stuff !!!

I suppose you can have chocolate moments with all styles of music and all styles of partner. What's chocolate for me (a bit jazzy a bit bluesy a bit Peggy Lee) might be coffee for someone else, or wine or steak or .... whatever... a cat's got the milk kind of moment.... Jeez one Scots Champs and I'm away ...

Wx

[Gadget]

Originally posted by denise
Maybe it would be a good idea to say that anyone winning a cat. must move up to the next cat. the following year in order to give others a chance.

I thought that this was the way it worked already ? If not, I wholey agree that it should be!
If you have won a beginner's, you can't compete in it again; same with intermediate - after you have won that, you can only compete in 'Open' competitions.

As to the whole "Com Dancing" theme; it should be fun, but the whole point of competitions is for the dancers to compete! Party's are for just dancing and showing off. Both should be fun to participate in and fun to watch.

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Wendy

it's more of a well... connection... harmony ... thing that happens. A kind of Haggen Daas thing... or a Magnum ice cream thing.... a cappuccino with just the right amount of coffee/milk/froth/chocolate/cinnamon .... a buttery Chardonnay ... a perfect moment when the music is just right...

Ah Yes Sunday mmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gadget
If you have won a beginner's, you can't compete in it again; same with intermediate - after you have won that, you can only compete in 'Open' competitions.

Well - yes and no. What if someone entered a small competition just before Blackpool to get a bit of experience, and won. Would they then have to move up at Blackpool? They might not even be able to change their entry - the next division may be full.

I think you should not be able to enter the same division if you won it the previous year. And if you have won a big national competition (ie Blackpool or Ceroc Champs, or the old LeJive one) then you should definitely have to move up.

it should be fun, but the whole point of competitions is for the dancers to compete! Party's are for just dancing and showing off. Both should be fun to participate in and fun to watch.

You are right - a competition has to provide a fun atmosphere for the majority, and a competitive arena for a minority.
There are only a handful of couples who take it seriously. They put in a lot of effort to produce a performance for you to enjoy, and they are paying for the privilege of performing it for you. I don't understand why anyone would want to discourage them from entering.
By all means separate them from the 99% of entries who see a competition as a different way to have fun. But they will give you a show that would cost a lot of money to put on any other way.

Originally posted by Wendy
Here's a way to judge great dancers - dance with them !!!

I agree. But it is an interesting point - if the way a leader/follower feels to their partner is so important, then why do you see so many style workshops, and hardly any technique ones?

And I like the 'secret judges' idea, but I think it works better at a club level - giving an award at the end of the year for the favourite man and lady??? I don't think the 'secret judges' could dance with enough people on one night

David

[Grant]

Originally posted by DavidB

There are only a handful of couples who take it seriously. They put in a lot of effort to produce a performance for you to enjoy, and they are paying for the privilege of performing it for you. I don't understand why anyone would want to discourage them from entering.
By all means separate them from the 99% of entries who see a competition as a different way to have fun. But they will give you a show that would cost a lot of money to put on any other way.

David

I totally agree with this - it is what I was trying to say in my earlier posting. Let the best compete against each other and show us how good they are. Let the rest have fun taking part in their own category.
I still think the only fair way to divide the two groups is for the judges to do it on the day based on what they can see. It eliminates the need for rules which can never fit all situations. It also makes it easier for competitors who currently have to decide for themselves which category they are in. Some are bound to enter the wrong category.
I don't think there should be any more categories because I think Scott had a pretty good balance of competition and freestyle. Those not competing or knocked out early are still dancers and will get itchy feet sitting around all afternoon watching others dancing. And some competitors were in all 4 categories and were understandably a little tired by the end. How would they feel after doing 6 categories?

Grant

[Bill]

Originally posted by Keith
Hi Gadg,
I can only see one prob, if the audience vote for the winners;
How would you feel, as a professional, whose career/reputation to a degree, may rest on the results of this competition, when the people voting have varying degrees of dance experience, i.e 2 months to 10 years say,

Well as Gus is away I'll take on his role...... :p I've heard the same comment made about other dance events where some of the advanced dancers are 'better'/more experienced than some of the judges. At Blackpool you have some of the best dancers around so that doesn't really happen but in other events the 'judges' actually get very little or no training - a clip board and told what to look for !

I honestly don't believe teachers would risk their reputations, by letting an audience loose on them.
It could be the equivalent of asking a Rangers supporter to vote for a Celtic player as Player of the season, above one of their own!

But....................there is every chance of bias in any judging system ! You can see from the audience reaction from Sunday how much they liked James and Lynn and Elliot. If it had been an audience vote they would probably have won anyway ! I've mentioned in an earlier thread that judges should be asked to declare an interest if they have taught/tutored/trained any competitor they are judging. Can a judge be absolutely unbiased if they have privately tutored a dancer ???

And of course each judge has their own preference for style so there's some degree of bias there anway and of course there's the familiarity issue. Many of the judges at Blackpool already know the 'normal' Advanced finalists and so know what they are capable of so there is always a chance that they will judge on what they know a couple can do rather than what they are actually doing on the day.

However, the same can be said of the idea of having the audience judge. Many of the folk there on Sunday will have seen me and Fran dance before but not a few of the others - is that an advantage?

I think the remarkable thing about Sunday is that no-one is disputing the decisions which says a great deal for the judging ! Well I did have one gripe about the Intermediate finalists but not bad for a whole day !

Now can I stir up anything else while Gus is having fun in NZ

[Bill]

Originally posted by Keith
Cheers Gadg,
This is one reason for the showcase, so the 'Aces' of the dance world can show their stuff here. But would it be fair to stop them entering the Advanced Cat.
We are then back to the same problems as discussed in the other posts. How do you police?
Ans on a post card please.
Keith
p.s is everyone else out there dancing, or scratching their heads for answers?

As others have said, it's unfortunate that there has to be a degree of 'policing' at comps and maybe the idea of the Open comp as at Blackpool is the only answer but as has also been said there is still a huge gap between most dancers who decide to enter the Advanced/Open level and the very best dancers such as Clayton & Jenine (sp) and the other 4/5 couples who regularly reach the final of major comps. This is why there is such a debate about an additional level for the 'cream' of dancers which in turn would encourage more current 'Intermediate' dancers to make the jump up to 'Advanced'.

This may not be a problem for most of the dancers who do enter more for fun rather than any expectation of winning. But if a couple want to get through a few rounds is it better to go into the Intermediate or just hope they can dance at their best and scrape through at least one round???

The issue of who is / is not a teacher raised its head on Sunday as it has for a few months now but there's the issue of age amongst others. James indicated that his new partner is under 18 so couldn't compete on Sunday - so if there's an over 50 cat. should there be an under 18???? Or if an under 18 enters should he/she be disqualified ? ( well it has happened at both major comps )

You can tell I'm still on holiday eh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Grant
I don't think there should be any more categories because I think Scott had a pretty good balance of competition and freestyle. Those not competing or knocked out early are still dancers and will get itchy feet sitting around all afternoon watching others dancing. Grant

Yes, of course you're right, you need to get a balance of freestyle and competition. But, just for the record, I actually don't mind sitting around watching others dance at a competition - mostly because, on a normal Ceroc night, you never have the chance to look at anyone else dancing. And, at a competition, you've got so many fantastic dancers to watch.

Last year's Ceroc championships was the first competion I'd ever been to - I didn't compete at all (didn't even dare to try the lucky dip in case I severely disappointed my allocated partner - though I may pluck up the courage another time). So I spent a lot of time just watching others competing and it was great. My only criticism of the Hammersmith venue was that there was so little room for spectators. I gather Blackpool is much better for this and I'll definitely try to make it there next year. And, best of all, I love what you did in Scotland with the Friday and Saturday parties - for me, that would be perfect: I could get my fill of dancing on those nights and then just enjoy watching everyone else on the Sunday.
Rachel

[Bill]

Originally posted by Rachel
I gather Blackpool is much better for this and I'll definitely try to make it there next year. And, best of all, I love what you did in Scotland with the Friday and Saturday parties - for me, that would be perfect: I could get my fill of dancing on those nights and then just enjoy watching everyone else on the Sunday.
Rachel

You'll really enjoy Blackpool Rachel. It has far more room and you can actually sit with friends and see what's going on rather then fight for a spot where you can just about see a fraction of the dance floor

And the FRiday night dance is good fun and a nice way to meet other dancers. And of course you should enter for the Lucky Dip at least. :p

London is still good but I think I had about 6 freestyle dances - just too busy and potentially dangerous for me

[Franck]

Originally posted by bill foreman
Well as Gus is away I'll take on his role...... :p

Please don't feel that you have to I quite enjoyed a controversy free week

I think the remarkable thing about Sunday is that no-one is disputing the decisions which says a great deal for the judging !

My views on judging are close to yours, there will always be bias of some sort, judges are only human after all. The only way to avoid reflecting the bias in the result, is to have a sufficient number of judges, that way once the scores are put together, the extremes cancel each other out.
The main difference in judging at the Scottish Comp (vs the Ceroc Champs) is that instead of each judge picking their top 3 couples in any heat, judges had to assess and mark each couple (treble or team) on 4 or 5 different criteria (technique, style, originality, fun, presentation, rapport, etc...). All the marks were then compiled with weighing allocated to each criteria varying with the type of competition. For example, technique was highly weighed in the Advanced section, but fun and rapport were more important in the Lucky Dip!

That system meant that each couple was judged independently and (slightly) more fairly.

The only problem we had on Sunday, is that there was little time to mark / assess each couple during one song, but all the judges worked very hard and delivered.

Franck.

[Grant]

Originally posted by Rachel
I actually don't mind sitting around watching others dance at a competition - mostly because, on a normal Ceroc night, you never have the chance to look at anyone else dancing. And, at a competition, you've got so many fantastic dancers to watch.

Don't get me wrong Rachel - the chance to watch fantastic dancers was a big part of the reason I went.
I just thought it was good that the rest of us had a chance to get up and dance between rounds.

And it gave the busier competitors a break to catch their breath, change costumes, grab a bite to eat etc.



Grant

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Grant
Don't get me wrong Rachel - the chance to watch fantastic dancers was a big part of the reason I went.
I just thought it was good that the rest of us had a chance to get up and dance between rounds.

And it gave the busier competitors a break to catch their breath, change costumes, grab a bite to eat etc.

What, you mean they expect to eat and rest, as well?!!!

Originally posted by bill foreman
You'll really enjoy Blackpool Rachel. It has far more room and you can actually sit with friends and see what's going on rather then fight for a spot where you can just about see a fraction of the dance floor

Can't wait for it! We've actually got the video for last year's Blackpool cos that was Marc's first competition, where he was competing with Donna Van Roose, and the whole event just looks amazing!

I may consider the lucky dip next year, but I'm just so terrified of the person I'm dancing with thinking, 'Oh no, why did I have to get HER??' I know it's supposed to be a fun category, but ... (maybe I'm just paranoid!)

I don't think I'd have a hope in hell of getting through even the first round of an intermediate category. My dancing's not exactly great, and, apart from anything else, I'd be so nervous, I'd mess it all up. Christ, I can't even remember how to walk properly if I think I'm being watched, let alone dance!
Rachel

[Bill]

Originally posted by Rachel
What, you mean they expect to eat and rest, as well

Well it would have been nice !!!!!!! - I did come back at least once with the wrong outfit on and had to dash back to change so from my own selfish point of view a bit longer between categories would have been nice :sorry :p

I may consider the lucky dip next year, but I'm just so terrified of the person I'm dancing with thinking, 'Oh no, why did I have to get HER??' I know it's supposed to be a fun category, but ... (maybe I'm just paranoid!)

Yes you are being paranoid!!! For all you know you could end up with a man who had been dancing for a week !
And if he's experienced he'll be able to lead you through a song. And it is about fun. Even more so than the other categories so take a breath, get on the floor and just HAVE FUN

And look forward to meeting you then..... or before !

[Graham]

Originally posted by Rachel
I may consider the lucky dip next year, but I'm just so terrified of the person I'm dancing with thinking, 'Oh no, why did I have to get HER??' I know it's supposed to be a fun category, but ... (maybe I'm just paranoid!)

You're just paranoid. I haven't been to Blackpool, but certainly on Sunday there were worse dancers than you in the lucky dip (not my partner, by the way, just from observation). In any case I agree with the point made in various posts that it all comes down to rapport - it makes far more of a difference whether you click with your partner than how technically/artistically good you are.

Originally posted by Rachel
I don't think I'd have a hope in hell of getting through even the first round of an intermediate category. My dancing's not exactly great, and, apart from anything else, I'd be so nervous, I'd mess it all up. Christ, I can't even remember how to walk properly if I think I'm being watched, let alone dance!
Rachel

Again I think it comes down to rapport. Looking at Sheena and Elliot for example, it certainly seemed that they (she! ) were just enjoying it so much it didn't really matter that there was an audience.

[Graham]

Originally posted by bill foreman
Well it would have been nice !!!!!!! - I did come back at least once with the wrong outfit on and had to dash back to change so from my own selfish point of view a bit longer between categories would have been nice :sorry :p

You obviously need a PA, Bill. I don't think you would have too much trouble finding applicants for the post.

[sexyjiver]

I entered the intermediate competition in Blackpool this year. I thought my experience of 6 years doing Ceroc would stand me in good stead, but I just froze. My partner was brilliant and she managed to get me to move my feet, but it was all over by then. I thought I was a little bit of an extrovert but this was totally different to strutting my stuff a couple of times a week.

Would I do it again. Probable not, I will enjoy watching next time

[Bill]

Originally posted by sexyjiver
I entered the intermediate competition in Blackpool this year. I thought my experience of 6 years doing Ceroc would stand me in good stead, but I just froze. My partner was brilliant and she managed to get me to move my feet, but it was all over by then. I thought I was a little bit of an extrovert but this was totally different to strutting my stuff a couple of times a week.

No how you feel SJ ! I still feel like that but learing how to cope but first time I went to LOndn all the moves I'd practiced went right out of my head and I ended doing a series of very basic beginner's moves. Funnily I remembered all the moves after the comp was over !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Would I do it again. Probable not, I will enjoy watching next time

Give it another go ! Once you get going it can be fun.though I do wonder soemtimes why on earth I put myself through it all

I have the Blackpool video so I'll have to look out for you. What did you have on ? Maybe see you there in March.

[filthycute]

Originally posted by bill foreman
Once you get going it can be fun.

Exactly!!

I can't believe how much fun i had competing for the first time on Sunday. I was ok until about 5 minutes before the comp then i was a complete wreck!
Once the first round of lucky dip was over though i couldn't keep the smile of my face. That was me hyper until the intermediate finals...then i died. I probably shouldn't have danced so much in the freestyles sessions and tried to conserve my energy for later on but i couldn't stop...i was on a high

Will definately be in Blackpool and most definately be competeing again! I had a great time

filthycute x x

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Graham
... there were worse dancers than you in the lucky dip

Oh... thanks, Graham - that makes me feel a whole lot better! Think I'll stick to watching at Blackpool!