Dancing as a woman

[Graham]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that dancing the woman's part gives you some insight into the plight of beginner women - but I think that benefit can be exaggerated, and there are lots of other ways to get similar insights.

I disagree. I can know that the woman has to pivot on her left foot and sweep her right back in a first move, but I can't know how that feels, how the lead can help/hinder, what that means on my balance and weight distribution before, during and after unless I have experienced it myself. I can watch and theorise, obviously, and listen to what followers tell me about it, but it's not the same as doing it.

[Sparkles]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that dancing the woman's part gives you some insight into the plight of beginner women - but I think that benefit can be exaggerated, and there are lots of other ways to get similar insights.

I'm interested in these 'other ways' you refer to... please enlighten me

[Minnie M]

.........it is slightly harder for a woman to learn to lead than a man to learn to lead............

also

.........Don't get me wrong, I agree that dancing the woman's part gives you some insight into the plight of beginner women - but I think that benefit can be exaggerated, and there are lots of other ways to get similar insights

how much 'practical' experience have you on the above Martin

[MartinHarper]

Sparkles - I find that the number one way for me to better understand the plight of beginner women is to listen to them. Were I an organiser, I suspect I would prefer a male taxi who could not follow, but often listened to beginner women, over another male taxi would could follow expertly, but never listened to beginner women.

----

Minnie - if I may I clarify - the reason that I believe that it is harder for a woman to learn to lead than a man is purely down to societal factors. Those factors are smaller, but I believe still present. An example would be freestyles, where a woman who desires to lead is likely to receive a number of requests to dance as a follow, which will interfere a little in the learning process.

Practical experience... so many ways to answer this...

Directly: Experience dancing as a beginner follow... one class, one workshop, a few "teaching dances", a few dozen freestyle dances. Self-assessments are difficult, but I'd put myself at about the third or fourth week equivalent in MJ. I'm told I need more resistance in my hands, I need to relax more, and I need to spin slower. Thus far, the experience has been hugely enjoyable and rewarding, and has generated very little real insight into the plight of beginner women.

Comparatively: Most women on this board haven't been a beginner follow for years, whereas my last experience was a week ago today. Obviously my more recent experience in the matter should make me completely in tune.... nah. I rather suspect that despite this the women on this board empathise with the plight of beginner women considerably better than me. Which is kinda my point.

Obtusely: I've had 25 years practical experience in being male, and a large proportion of this time has been spent trying to understand women. My general experience has been that empathy via imitation is good for superficial insights into the female condition, but is limited by me being (a) male and (b) just one person, and should not be relied upon. To date, the same appears to be true of MJ.

[David Chu]

Hi All,

Very interesting reading here.

I actually find the phrasing of "dancing woman" and "dancing man" quite funny.

When I'm dancing as a follower, I'm not "dancing woman".
I am indeed just simply "a man" following a great lead.

I have had the pleasure of dancing with quite a few guys up here in Scotland, really good dancers , challenging, musical and creative.
I've danced as a follower with some really cool women...their skill is mightly impressive.

As a dancer in a partner dancing environment, it is vitally important to understand the mechanics of your own dancing as well as your partners.

As a leader if you don't understand how difficult it is for your partner to basically walk backwards in high heels and then spin three times into your arm, you are not a good leader...so my advise it to try it out....not necessarily in heels but it helps.

I totally disagree that following is easy, that dear friends is truly misguided.
As a leader my job is to create the mood, keep in time, think of moves ahead of the beats and look after my partner as well as make them shine.
As a follower my job is try to keep to the timing of my leader, embellish a little (alot), watch for signals and to submit to the mood created by my leader.

I find that as a leader, it brings out more of the passion in me. As a follower it brings out the astistry in me...I can't have one without the other...I'm greedy.

If following was so easy the gap between good and marvellous would be much smaller than it currently is...the same also goes for leading.

Many a time there is a lack of "leads" and you see two women dance together, it is great to see woman being able to lead, just as good as a guy in some case.
I really enjoy being led by great dancers, what sex they are doesn't concern me.

I liked the comment about going into a room and being able to dance with anyone, I feel the same.....I am indeed "bi-dancual".

Personally, I feel truly blessed that within the Modern Jive Fold I can follow just as well as I can lead.

I gain inspiration from both male and female dancers, it makes me a better dancer.

We all want to get better at dancing...open your minds....the opportunity is right in front of you.

Actually forget that, if more guys follow and get better at it, that less time that I get to follow.

Keep dancing!

Cheers

David

[ElaineB]

Hi All,

Very interesting reading here.

I actually find the phrasing of "dancing woman" and "dancing man" quite funny.

When I'm dancing as a follower, I'm not "dancing woman".
I am indeed just simply "a man" following a great lead.

I have had the pleasure of dancing with quite a few guys up here in Scotland, really good dancers , challenging, musical and creative.
I've danced as a follower with some really cool women...their skill is mightly impressive.

As a dancer in a partner dancing environment, it is vitally important to understand the mechanics of your own dancing as well as your partners.

As a leader if you don't understand how difficult it is for your partner to basically walk backwards in high heels and then spin three times into your arm, you are not a good leader...so my advise it to try it out....not necessarily in heels but it helps.

I totally disagree that following is easy, that dear friends is truly misguided.
As a leader my job is to create the mood, keep in time, think of moves ahead of the beats and look after my partner as well as make them shine.
As a follower my job is try to keep to the timing of my leader, embellish a little (alot), watch for signals and to submit to the mood created by my leader.

I find that as a leader, it brings out more of the passion in me. As a follower it brings out the astistry in me...I can't have one without the other...I'm greedy.

If following was so easy the gap between good and marvellous would be much smaller than it currently is...the same also goes for leading.

Many a time there is a lack of "leads" and you see two women dance together, it is great to see woman being able to lead, just as good as a guy in some case.
I really enjoy being led by great dancers, what sex they are doesn't concern me.

I liked the comment about going into a room and being able to dance with anyone, I feel the same.....I am indeed "bi-dancual".

Personally, I feel truly blessed that within the Modern Jive Fold I can follow just as well as I can lead.

I gain inspiration from both male and female dancers, it makes me a better dancer.

We all want to get better at dancing...open your minds....the opportunity is right in front of you.

Actually forget that, if more guys follow and get better at it, that less time that I get to follow.

Keep dancing!

Cheers

David

I started Tango lessons earlier this year and the teacher (Eduardo Bozzo) was telling us that in Argentine Tango, the man will learn to follow as well as lead. It gives them a better insight into how to lead properly. I have been lucky enough to have lessons with Amir and he will also lead or follow, depending on what point he is trying to make.

In my limited experience, it seems that 'bi' dancers have a better 'feel' for their partner, especially where their partner's balance is concerned.

Elaine

[Lou]

I'm told I need more resistance in my hands, I need to relax more, and I need to spin slower. Thus far, the experience has been hugely enjoyable and rewarding, and has generated very little real insight into the plight of beginner women...

Sounds like many beginner women I've met.

I dance lead with followers of both genders. There are some lovely men in Bristol who have either followed a bit before, or not at all, but have kindly volunteered to have me lead them. I've found that when they (finally!) give up the lead, they tend to still try to think about the steps they should be doing, rather than follow the lead.

As the teaching style of the vast majority of MJ classes highlights how to do the steps (not how to follow the lead), this is no different to how your average beginner lady thinks.

When I'm dancing with a new lady in class, I often have to encourage her to slow down, relax & smile, enjoy the dance & feel the tension in the lead. Doesn't sound much different from the advice you're getting, does it? I think you're closer to your aim of empathy than you realise!

[Lynn]

I like the 'dancing as follow or lead' way of thinking better than 'dancing as woman or man'. I was at a salsa charity night this week, they had a merengue class for beginners and (as usual at salsa events here) there were about 3 woman per man, so I joined in as a lead, and that was helping me to learn how important it was to have tension and how hard it is to lead without it.

I suppose there is a thread about dancing as lead where I should really post this, but its good for both to dance the reverse.

(Interestingly, when I am watching a regular man-woman lead-follow I look at the dance, style etc - but if two men are dancing my attention is much more focused on the lead and follow to see who is doing which.)

[Andy McGregor]

Hi all

-snip-

Fab post, I wish I'd said that

Hi All,I totally disagree that following is easy, that dear friends is truly misguided.

This comment seems to be directed at something I said on this thread so I thought I'd elucidate. I think that learning the basics of following is easier than learning the basics of leading. The very clear evidence for this is the rapid initial progress of beginner women compared to beginner men.

However, I agree that following well is just as hard as leading well - I would say it's a fairly equal partnership

[TheTramp]

I dance as the follow whenever I can, for the simple reason that I quite enjoy it

Trampy

[Magic Hans]

...
I totally disagree that following is easy, that dear friends is truly misguided.
...

Further little bit by Amir.

Have advocated this often, and here would be a good place to repeat: Guys, take an oppertunity some time soon to learn to follow, and do it when ever you can.!

It is the most dis-orientating, dizzying and challenging experience you are likely to have! Especially at dark venues with moving lights!
...

Taken from: Why do women anticipate moves?

!an

PS Funnily enough, following fits my personality far better than leading ... that took me about 5 years to truly grasp! Does that make me a good follow? No! Why not? Lack of practice!!

[Lory]

Interesting observation....

I've had many fantastic dances with Sparkles leading me and we've both commented how similar we feel our dance styles are.

To 'us', our movements mirror each others perfectly, our hips sway the same way, we instinctively use the same footwork patterns, we seem to interpret the music in the same way, (I'd even go as far as to say, it feels like I'm dancing with another me).

So, we assumed we must feel very similar for the guys we dance with, BUT NO, of the few guys we've asked, they said we feel VERY different to dance with, which I find really odd!

Maybe her 'lead', is like my 'follow' but her 'follow' is nothing like my 'follow'???? (wow my brain aches)

Help me Sparkles, you'll probably explain this better than I am!

Any men who've danced with us both, care to shed any light?

Just like to add to all women who can lead!

[MartinHarper]

I like the 'dancing as follow or lead' way of thinking better than 'dancing as woman or man'

On another forum, it's normal to talk about "leads" and "follows", rather than "men" and "women". Fair enough. Then there was a thread about folks who are ambi-dancetrous, and it was entitled "follows who lead". A bit confusing, but still comprehensible. Still, I confess that my brain baulked when people starting discussing whether leads who follow are more likely to hijack the lead from follows who lead, compared to follows who follow dancing with leads who lead.

[Lynn]

Still, I confess that my brain baulked when people starting discussing whether leads who follow are more likely to hijack the lead from follows who lead, compared to follows who follow dancing with leads who lead.

I think I can just about follow that...

[spindr]

On another forum, it's normal to talk about "leads" and "follows", rather than "men" and "women".

I remember watching a medieval dance display once where the terms used weren't follower and leader, but mares and stallions

SpinDr.

[Sparkles]

Interesting observation....

I've had many fantastic dances with Sparkles leading me and we've both commented how similar we feel our dance styles are.

To 'us', our movements mirror each others perfectly, our hips sway the same way, we instinctively use the same footwork patterns, we seem to interpret the music in the same way, (I'd even go as far as to say, it feels like I'm dancing with another me).

So, we assumed we must feel very similar for the guys we dance with, BUT NO, of the few guys we've asked, they said we feel VERY different to dance with, which I find really odd!

Maybe her 'lead', is like my 'follow' but her 'follow' is nothing like my 'follow'???? (wow my brain aches)

Help me Sparkles, you'll probably explain this better than I am!

Any men who've danced with us both, care to shed any light?

Just like to add to all women who can lead!

I think you've explained it better than I could have!
I can confirm that Lory and I have had this discussion on a number of occasions and it was very surprising to both of us that the responses from the guys came back the way they did - ie. that we are nothing like each other for them to dance with.
I do wonder, however, that it may be that we each know the guys we dance with in different contexts - someone that you (Lory) are very UCP with may be someone that I don't know particularly well and vice versa - and I think this will mean that we will dance with the same guy in different ways. Whereas, of course, when we dance with each other we know each other equally well, so we probably use styles to compliment each other without even knowing we're doing it.
Maybe the guys can confirm this theory for me?

I get some very odd reactions when I ask ladies to dance, especially in freestyle - the look on Jayne's face, for example, was priceless - but then she found out who I was and everything was OK (we had a lovely dance, thank you for humouring me ). So I say to women that are comfortable dancing with other women and men who do likewise with other men or dance with ladies as followers.

S. x

[baldrick]

I dance as the follow whenever I can, for the simple reason that I quite enjoy it

Trampy

[Andy McGregor]

On another forum, it's normal to talk about "leads" and "follows", rather than "men" and "women". Fair enough. Then there was a thread about folks who are ambi-dancetrous, and it was entitled "follows who lead". A bit confusing, but still comprehensible. Still, I confess that my brain baulked when people starting discussing whether leads who follow are more likely to hijack the lead from follows who lead, compared to follows who follow dancing with leads who lead.

Seems quite logical to me. It's all lead and follow, not man and woman. Athough in the parallel universe of lifts that rudely exclude cartoon characters this may be a bit confusing

[David Chu]

[QUOTE=Lory]To 'us', our movements mirror each others perfectly, our hips sway the same way, we instinctively use the same footwork patterns, we seem to interpret the music in the same way, (I'd even go as far as to say, it feels like I'm dancing with another me).

So, we assumed we must feel very similar for the guys we dance with, BUT NO, of the few guys we've asked, they said we feel VERY different to dance with, which I find really odd!

Maybe her 'lead', is like my 'follow' but her 'follow' is nothing like my 'follow'???? (wow my brain aches)

......Ah, the mystery of dance!

I think your observation is correct Lory.

If I am being led by a woman I generally find the lead much lighter/gentler (if that is a word), although, there are one or two woman up here in Scotland whose lead is stronger, via practise and confidence I guess.

I think men have generally more power in their arms, which lends itself to spinning their partner easier.

If I'm dancing with a male lead I do sometimes get that "I'm dancing with myself feeling" too. I think it is like mirroring. in terms of the mood of the song.

Like all dance partnerships though, the more you dance with the same person, the more used to their reportoire you get...is'nt that a great place to be!

Keep twirling dancers

XXX
David

[Sparkles]

I don't know if this deserves to be on it's own thread (or a more appropriate one) but I was just curious...
I've recently observed when I've been dancing as a leader that some ladies, and men dancing as followers, follow more on visual leads than on actual leads. I find this difficult to deal with as a leader because it makes the ladies a split second behind me and the music. I would blame my lead, but it only happens with a few people, not the majority.
Has anyone else experienced this and is there a way of coping with it as a leader?
Thanks
S. x