Dancing as a woman

[MartinHarper]

Yeah yeah, "dancing as a follow". I just like mirroring titles.

From elsewhere:

Gadget: I've danced with a couple of male followers, and a couple of ladies have tried to lead me: Result - I can't follow.

Me: A couple? After two freestyle dances and no lessons, most women can't follow either.

Gadget: I know what I should be doing. I can feel the lead. I just use that lead to set up my own move instead of waiting for the lady to tell me where to go next - not so much anticipating, more positioning for what my next lead would be.
My dancing should give me an advantage over a complete begginer: I can spin, I know where the hand will be, I can understand the lead - I just can't follow it!

I've heard similar laments from female followers at various times. They got better with more lessons and more dances. *shrug*

I've danced follow in a single lesson, and in a handful of songs freestyle. I can sometimes interpret signals or guess moves correctly, but I can't follow yet. Is that slow?

What we need is the successful male follows to let on: how many dances did it take before it clicked?

[Minnie M]

I can never understand why men make such a big deal about following, most of us girls can lead, some a lot better than others, but when a man follows it always seems to be a spectator sport

They pull such silly faces and they never seem to know what to do with the spare hand

Sorry, back on the 'follow-on' thread .....

There really should not be a difference between the sexes for lead and follow, but initially you do need to join the classes. Us girls have more opportunity as there is normally more followers in classes. Then you need to practice the moves in freestyle AND there again, as there usually are more ladies ..... and so on. You guys have to ask one of us girlies to lead you. I had a really great dance leading Rachel's Marc at Southport cors he asked me.

[Andy McGregor]

What we need is the successful male follows to let on: how many dances did it take before it clicked?

I came 3rd in the Intermediate at Blackpool sharing the following with another guy and 4th in the Ceroc "Old Gits" as a follower to Sheepman - is that successful enough?

It 'clicked' as soon as I realised that when you follow you just do what is led; you're the leaders puppet. All you do is keep the tension going and only go where you're pulled/pushed - and keep smiling

My advice is to start dancing with guys who have a strong lead and progress to female leads who are always very gentle and take a bit of getting used to

Don't try and rotate in the lesson with the women. The guys in the line count ahead and work out if they're going to get you - then they drop out of the line Do the lesson at the side with another guy or a woman who'd like to learn how to lead better. Do that for a few lessons and you should get it.

[Lou]

My advice is to start dancing with guys who have a strong lead and progress to female leads who are always very gentle and take a bit of getting used to

So what you're really saying is that we don't yank?!

[MartinHarper]

My advice is to start dancing with guys who have a strong lead and progress to female leads who are always very gentle and take a bit of getting used to

The last guy I asked "so, would you like to dance?" replied "Who with?".

[Andy McGregor]

The last guy I asked "so, would you like to dance?" replied "Who with?".

[DavidY]

but when a man follows it always seems to be a spectator sport

This is part of the problem with dancing with other men IMO. It's OK for dance-god types who are good enough to entertain a crowd, but if I just want to learn how to follow by dancing with a good lead it's not something I'd want to do if lots of people are going to watch.

I've occasionally asked women to lead me which is less obvious - but I do feel I'm imposing on them (because I'm a rubbish follow) so don't ask very often.

[Andy McGregor]

but if I just want to learn how to follow by dancing with a good lead it's not something I'd want to do if lots of people are going to watch.

IMHO, the last thing you want to do is get caught dancing with another man in private

My advice is to forget about what other people think. The people who're watching you aren't dancing at all - so, no matter how bad your dancing is, at that time you're a better dancer than they are

In my experience, people don't judge you when you dance with another man, they just laugh, no matter how good/bad you are

[under par]

........ so, no matter how bad your dancing is, at that time you're a better dancer than they are

In my experience, people don't judge you when you dance with another man, they just laugh, no matter how good/bad you are

or what you wear?


Got a lot of offers when wearing pink!

[Bangers & Mash]

I've only danced as the woman once and it was quite an experience - but I do intend to do it again.

What we need is the successful male follows to let on: how many dances did it take before it clicked?

I get the feeling that it will take a few more dances to get close to "clicking" but I think if a guy is to improve his lead he has to know how to follow.

I can never understand why men make such a big deal about following, most of us girls can lead, some a lot better than others, but when a man follows it always seems to be a spectator sport

too right - and the dips caused quite a giggle

One of the best dances I ever saw was too guys taking it in turn to lead and follow. I watched the whole dance (as a beginner) trying to work out who was leading and spot the lead change.

[Sparkles]

IMHO, the last thing you want to do is get caught dancing with another man in private

My advice is to forget about what other people think. The people who're watching you aren't dancing at all - so, no matter how bad your dancing is, at that time you're a better dancer than they are

In my experience, people don't judge you when you dance with another man, they just laugh, no matter how good/bad you are

I've seen some amazing examples of men dancing together. This goes from everything from David B leading another bloke, Andy being a stunning woman, Trampy dancing with several men at the same time and dancing with men and women together and doing double-trouble with two guys and including aerials in the routien , and watching two men ballroom dancing together at the Rivoli (South London) - and believe me they were just as dynamic and just as elegant as many man-lady couples.

As far as I'm concerned it's fab when a guy wants to dance as a woman or learn to follow, and that's mainly because it makes them so much more aware of how the lady experiences a dance and what it's like to be led. I make a specific point of learning to lead (and am currently trying to increase my repotoir of moves) and I find it helps my dancing no end.

I particularly like being able to walk into a room and dance with *anyone* there. Also, just recently, I've had requests from several curious men asking me to lead them, and we always have such a laugh .

In relation to this, I always find it particularly bad form that some (not all ) male taxi dancers don't know how to dance as a follower and bluntly refuse to do so, even for the purpose of demonstrating an action. They give advice to the beginners about following a lead when they have never done so themselves. If women taxi dancers have to learn to lead why shouldn't it also be the case that male taxi dancers should learn to follow?

S. x

[MartinHarper]

If women taxi dancers have to learn to lead why shouldn't it also be the case that male taxi dancers should learn to follow?

I wish I lived in a world where I could answer that with a resounding yes. However, there are some excuses for not applying the same requirement to male taxis as is applied to female taxis.

1. The point of taxi dancers is to dance with beginners. Women are normally happy to dance with both male and female taxis, and thus it is very worthwhile for female taxis to learn to lead. Some men are wussy about touching other men, so there is less benefit for male taxis to learn to follow.
2. Venues typically want an even mix of male and female taxis to demonstrate to beginners that MJ is for both men and women. However, there are usually more beginner women than beginner men. Thus, there is a larger demand for lead taxis than follow taxis. The best way to satisfy these competing objectives is to ensure that all the female taxis can lead.
3. It is relatively harder for men to learn to follow than for women to learn to lead. The principle reason for this is that women are allowed to learn to lead in classes, whereas (depending on the venue) men are banned from doing likewise. Another cause of increased difficulty is that, as noted above, some men are wussy about touching other men.

[Jive Brummie]

In relation to this, I always find it particularly bad form that some (not all ) male taxi dancers don't know how to dance as a follower and bluntly refuse to do so, even for the purpose of demonstrating an action. They give advice to the beginners about following a lead when they have never done so themselves. If women taxi dancers have to learn to lead why shouldn't it also be the case that male taxi dancers should learn to follow?

S. x

Sparkles,

I totally agree with this. I think to instruct in any way, you really do need a comprehensive understanding of what you're doing. As soon as you start to stumble through your sentences or look nervous, your beginner will have you rumbled and their faith in you diminishes.

Although i wouldn't particularly advise men taxi's to dance woman in the taxi class, i, again, totally agree that they should have some experience in following. Having danced as woman on many occasions now, i can honestly say that it has given me a completely new view of what i'm expecting my partner to do. And one of the hardest moves i find to follow....the first move! .

Not only do i find that it gives me a better understanding of lead/follow, but i also find that it gives me an indication as to why some lead's are looked upon as being so very good. You can pick up a lot.

Dances of late that have been fantastic for me 'with another guy' (ooer!) have been with Bill at the dundee party, because his lead was so smooth and clear to follow, and just the other night, David Chu. Possibly the best dance me and him have ever had . David's musicality and a complete lack of fear for trying something new, combined with his flamboyance and his ability to turn a dance into a performance definitely make him someone to admire. He makes a great woman....everyone should give him a go!!!!!!!!!

So...dance as woman, you might learn something.

JB x x

[Andy McGregor]

3. It is relatively harder for men to learn to follow than for women to learn to lead.

I don't think this is true. It's far easier to learn to follow than it is to learn to lead - I've done both and all it takes to learn basic following is to allow yourself to be led. Even basic leading is harder than this.

The principal reason for this is that women are allowed to learn to lead in classes, whereas (depending on the venue) men are banned from doing likewise.

I've never been to a class where he guys are banned from learning to follow. Who are these sexist organisers?

Another cause of increased difficulty is that, as noted above, some men are wussy about touching other men.

This is completely correct, some guys will not dance with other guys. The answer is simple, learn to follow with guys that will dance with you

[MartinHarper]

It's far easier to learn to follow than it is to learn to lead

I guess what I'm saying is: in practice, it is considerably harder for a man to learn to follow than a woman to learn to follow, due to societal factors. By contrast, while it is slightly harder for a woman to learn to lead than a man to learn to lead, the societal factors are smaller.
Whether leading or following is intrinsically harder... that's another debate.

[baldrick]

I wanted to follow, to find out how it felt. Tough to find guys who would lead me, but it happened. The end result is a lot more sympathy for new follows. The first lead was someone just offered, the second took some pressure. Thanks guys.
I can understand a reluctance to lead a bloke, after all there's more atractive follows then me.

[drathzel]

I wanted to follow, to find out how it felt. Tough to find guys who would lead me, but it happened. The end result is a lot more sympathy for new follows. The first lead was someone just offered, the second took some pressure. Thanks guys.
I can understand a reluctance to lead a bloke, after all there's more atractive follows then me.

the second was a double trouble though so i am sure the an in question, ie paul wan't overly happy to lead you and me! i could understand that one! I have stole the lead a few times and i respect the lead more now!

[Graham]

In relation to this, I always find it particularly bad form that some (not all ) male taxi dancers don't know how to dance as a follower and bluntly refuse to do so, even for the purpose of demonstrating an action. They give advice to the beginners about following a lead when they have never done so themselves. If women taxi dancers have to learn to lead why shouldn't it also be the case that male taxi dancers should learn to follow?

Yes, they absolutely should, for the same reasons that CTA training involves dancing as both a lead and a follow. As JB said, if you haven't done it yourself it's impossible to know exactly what the beginners you're trying to help are experiencing. Oddly enough my hardest move as a follower is also the first move, although TheTramp gave me lots of practice a couple of weeks back, so I think I was beginning to get the hang of it towards the end. Him shouting "FIRST MOVE" helped a lot too.

[MartinHarper]

if you haven't done it yourself it's impossible to know exactly what the beginners you're trying to help are experiencing

My feeling is that it is impossible for a guy to ever know exactly what beginner women are experiencing. Just as an example, while I've followed a few moves I don't recognise, I've never had the experience of a first time beginner woman who has an entire dance and doesn't recognise a single move.

Another example: I find, on dancing with beginner women, that many of them are happy to allow themselves to be lead, but nevertheless have difficulties in following. Partly this is because of my poor lead, no doubt. But there are other reasons: difficulty in spinning or turning, spaghetti arms, gripping on, rhythm, balance, etc. By contrast, as I'm learning to follow, I can already spin and turn, and I already have a bit of frame, balance, rhythm, and so forth.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that dancing the woman's part gives you some insight into the plight of beginner women - but I think that benefit can be exaggerated, and there are lots of other ways to get similar insights.

[Andy McGregor]

My feeling is that it is impossible for a guy to ever know exactly what beginner women are experiencing.

Isn't it impossible to know exactly what any other human being is experiencing? And, if you were experiencing exactly what the other human being was experiencing, how would you know?

On reading the above post I experienced a 'so what' feeling. Other people may have had the same feeling as me - but was their experience of it the same as mine?