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Thread: Being a Roman Candle...

  1. #21
    Papa Smurf
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    was that a pun drathzel, writing in pigeon English ?

    Its also worth mentioning that in the Islands on the West Coast the first language is still Gaelic for a lot of children - the parents let them learn English when they go to School. Island life is changing a lot now though with outsiders coming in and forcing up the price of what used to be affordable housing. Its very sad. Where my parents live on the Isle of Skye they even have a trailer park for the poor locals to live in .

  2. #22
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat
    I have encountered people who will, presumably on a point of principle, answer remarks made to them in English, using Welsh. The principle being, when in Wales, speak Welsh.
    Isnt a legitimate point that Welsh IS an indiginous British language and therefore is as British as English? Have you ever tried understanding a cockney or scouser in full flow?

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    Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner drathzel's Avatar
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheena
    ehrm...........pardon?

    exactly!!!!

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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    was that a pun drathzel, writing in pigeon English ?

    Its also worth mentioning that in the Islands on the West Coast the first language is still Gaelic for a lot of children - the parents let them learn English when they go to School. Island life is changing a lot now though with outsiders coming in and forcing up the price of what used to be affordable housing. Its very sad. Where my parents live on the Isle of Skye they even have a trailer park for the poor locals to live in .

    No pun just typing on a crap keyboard and missing out letters!!! My friend is from North Uist and she spoke Gaelic for a long time but now it is more natural for her to speak English (scottish)

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Isnt a legitimate point that Welsh IS an indiginous British language and therefore is as British as English? Have you ever tried understanding a cockney or scouser in full flow?
    Exactly right! It seems daft to me that there's all this talk about the ability to speak English as a prerequisite for British citizenship, when there are other indigenous languages that have been in the British Isles for longer than English. What about bilingual Patagonians who speak Welsh and Spanish, for example? Surely they should be exempt from the "learning English" rule, especially as Welsh has equal status in law with English (allegedly....)

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    Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner drathzel's Avatar
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    Exactly right! It seems daft to me that there's all this talk about the ability to speak English as a prerequisite for British citizenship, when there are other indigenous languages that have been in the British Isles for longer than English. What about bilingual Patagonians who speak Welsh and Spanish, for example? Surely they should be exempt from the "learning English" rule, especially as Welsh has equal status in law with English (allegedly....)

    however how many english people speak welsh or spanish?? They would not be able to comumicate with them... not that thats the welsh peoples fault as the english (inc scots and irish) are quite ignorant and expect everyone else to speak english... even when they go to foreign countries!!!

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    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by drathzel
    however how many english people speak welsh or spanish?? They would not be able to comumicate with them... not that thats the welsh peoples fault as the english (inc scots and irish) are quite ignorant and expect everyone else to speak english... even when they go to foreign countries!!!
    That misses the point. It's not a matter of whether or not English people can understand them. Most English people don't understand Welsh either, but that doesn't stop us using it in Wales. As Welsh is an official UK language (allegedly) it should be given equal footing with English in all fields of life, including immigration.

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    Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner drathzel's Avatar
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    That misses the point. It's not a matter of whether or not English people can understand them. Most English people don't understand Welsh either, but that doesn't stop us using it in Wales. As Welsh is an official UK language (allegedly) it should be given equal footing with English in all fields of life, including immigration.

    i nkow it does. i was sort of meaning in england, then in foreign countries. I didn't mean to offend!

  9. #29
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by drathzel
    i nkow it does. i was sort of meaning in england, then in foreign countries. I didn't mean to offend!
    Don't worry, no offence taken
    My skin's a bit thcker than that. Just making a point, that's all.

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    Ceroc N.I. Franchise Owner drathzel's Avatar
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    Don't worry, no offence taken
    My skin's a bit thcker than that. Just making a point, that's all.

    cool. I also understand where you are coming from.

  11. #31
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    As Welsh is an official UK language (allegedly) it should be given equal footing with English in all fields of life, including immigration.
    Many people in Wales have worked hard to ensure that they can conduct their work, leisure, social and community life without having to use a non-native language i.e. English. This has partly come about as a result of uncompromising attitudes such as refusing to answer people in English. While it might be difficult to be on the receiving end of this, broadly speaking, I support their endeavours. I think there's a very strong case for it being made compulsory to learn Welsh in order to participate in e.g. community politics as the relentless flow of incomers erodes traditionally monoglot Welsh-speaking areas. It only takes one non-Welsh speaker at a meeting to force the participants to change the language of business from Welsh to English. Replicated all over the core Welsh-speaking heartlands, mainly in mid and North Wales, this would cause considerable damage.
    I've even heard anecdotal evidence of people choosing to send their children to Welsh-language playgroups and then complaining that parent meetings were held in Welsh!

    I've also encountered people refusing to speak English as a matter of principle in Donegal- again, the result of a passionate commitment to their political/linguistic aims over and above the niceties of social courtesy!

  12. #32
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by jivecat
    I've also encountered people refusing to speak English as a matter of principle in Donegal- again, the result of a passionate commitment to their political/linguistic aims over and above the niceties of social courtesy!
    I can think of no more fundamental point of culture than your native tongue. If you regard yourslef as Scottish or Welsh then I can fully appreacite that Celtic/Welsh being your primary language. This brings us back to the thread ( ) ...can you ever be really British if you dont speak a native British langaue as your primary language?
    Does your primary lanauge define your true nation of choice?

  13. #33
    Papa Smurf
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Does your primary language define your true nation of choice?
    I dont think it does. Language is simply one part of it, but I agree with the new rules - you should at least attempt to learn reasonable English to become a new British Citizen. Otherwise you are dependant on others and cannot integrate into society. If you were an immigrant that moved to Wales and learnt Welsh, then you'd still be integrating so that would be fine too . Integration is the key as, without it, you have division. Division leads to crime, abuse, hatred and all other anti-social behaviours.


    As for native languages, well, thats fairly complex. The most recent language, and therefore the least 'native' language is English, being Latin based and coming from Anglo-Saxon Europe. Celtic languages have been around longer.

    There is no doubt that English is the dominant language in this techological world. Chinese and Hindi are very much held to specific areas of the world and dont help cultures/countries communicate.

    America (the intellectual country where the minorities are big and join together in their stupidity*) has racist groups who, with no sense of irony, say 'If you cant speak the language, get out of the f***** country' - without realising just how diverse America is and that (someone correct me if Im wrong) Spanish is actually the dominant language. Then of course you have the many and varied native languages which bare little resemblance to English or Spanish.


    *is that the difference between America and countries and Europe? usually our minorities don't get noticed** when they band together with their stupid ideas. Too many of them in America

    ** with obvious exceptions - Nazis for example

  14. #34
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by drathzel
    cool. I also understand where you are coming from.
    Wales?!?

  15. #35
    An Eclectic Toaster
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    America (the intellectual country where the minorities are big and join together in their stupidity*) has racist groups who, with no sense of irony, say 'If you cant speak the language, get out of the f***** country' - without realising just how diverse America is and that (someone correct me if Im wrong) Spanish is actually the dominant language. Then of course you have the many and varied native languages which bare little resemblance to English or Spanish.
    [/size]
    The US Census suggests that the figure is only about 10-15%. Of course, if you mean the entire Americas - North, Central and South - Spanish speakers may well outnumber English speakers. With Portuguese in 3rd place.

    Undoubtedly English is the dominant language in the US. Whether it eventually becomes the dominant language globally is debatable.

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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Does your primary lanauge define your true nation of choice?
    {I wrote this before reading DS's post...}
    This issue of languages, in my mind, breeds xenophobia and distrust between races/cultures.

    Language is the tool we use to communicate: We use language to communicate thoughts and ideas. We study past languages to investigate our ancestors thoughts and ideas. We pass on and collaborate our current thoughts and ideas through language. To be understood and to understand these ideas, we need to 'speak' the language. So by isolating your language and refusing to acknowledge/learn/embrace another, are you not blocking out all ideas and thoughts from them? are you not preventing your thoughts and ideas from reaching them? You are erecting a barrier of non-communication that will stagnate the thoughts and ideas within the secular language.

    I have no problem with recording and documenting a language for historical reference- most stories, legends and folklore read better in their own tongue with knowledge of the context in which they were conceived. But language should be a global communication to allow not only the spread of knowledge and ideas, but their development.

    Should 'natives' adhere to the laws of the country they live in? Yes; most laws are to protect 'society' from 'deviant behaviour' - if your culture/religion goes against this, then move to a country where it is not.

    The letter of the law has been laid down by those in power - Kings and Queens to start with, then politicians and lawyers. These people have been influenced by their beliefs in "right" and "wrong". These beliefs came from the religion they subscribe to and the culture they have been brought up in. While "culture" changes and the influence of religion lessens, the laws take a lot longer to change to reflect these changes. (A law against "same sex couples" being able to share the same legal rights as married couples is an excellent example.)

    Should 'natives' embrace the culture in which they live in? No; culture and religion are (/should be) a matter of personal ideologies. There is no need to embrace the culture, however you must acknowledge it and respect it's views. There may even be attempts to influence it with your own culture, but any attempt to impose your culture on your native land's is just as conceited and arrogant as anyone imposing their culture on yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadful Scathe
    you should at least attempt to learn reasonable English to become a new British Citizen. Otherwise you are dependant on others and cannot integrate into society.
    Na - I would say that if you don't, then you are dependant on other people's interpritation of what is being said rather than understanding what is being said yourself.
    I'm not sure that you need to "integrate into society" to be a citizen either

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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart M
    The US Census suggests that the figure is only about 10-15%.
    I wonder if that survey was published in anything other thatn English?
    Undoubtedly English is the dominant language in the US. Whether it eventually becomes the dominant language globally is debatable.
    I think that it will either be English or one of the oriental languages - there was a time that spanish was in the running, but I think that the internet will dictate the which language becomes the "global" one... perhaps translation tools will ensure that there is not one?

  18. #38
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    you should at least attempt to learn reasonable English to become a new British Citizen. Otherwise you are dependant on others and cannot integrate into society.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Na - I would say that if you don't, then you are dependant on other people's interpritation of what is being said rather than understanding what is being said yourself.
    er...thats what I meant by dependant !


    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I'm not sure that you need to "integrate into society" to be a citizen either
    Of course you do, if you live here you must integrate unless you are going to get locked up in prison or live as a hermit! Although technically I suppose you are right, there are certainly some non-english speaking woman who stay in the house and don't emerge AT ALL and therefore dont integrate (i.e "become part of society"), but as their husbands/kids do, you could say they integrate by association.

  19. #39
    Registered User Baruch's Avatar
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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Language is the tool we use to communicate: We use language to communicate thoughts and ideas.

    I have no problem with recording and documenting a language for historical reference- most stories, legends and folklore read better in their own tongue with knowledge of the context in which they were conceived. But language should be a global communication to allow not only the spread of knowledge and ideas, but their development.
    This is where I have to disagree. Language is much more than just a means of communication. It is intrinsically linked to culture, and it also influences the way we think. One's language is part of one's identity. This isn't so obvious when considering a "strong" langauge like English, but it becomes much mroe obvious when your right to use your language is threatened, which has happened to the Welsh for centuries.
    Last edited by Baruch; 13th-September-2004 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Messed up quote

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    Re: Being a Roman Candle...

    Quote Originally Posted by Baruch
    This is where I have to disagree. Language is much more than just a means of communication. It is intrinsically linked to culture, and it also influences the way we think. One's language is part of one's identity. This isn't so obvious when considering a "strong" langauge like English, but it becomes much mroe obvious when your right to use your language is threatened, which has happened to the Welsh for centuries.

    I agree, although, i live in Scotland and i have started to pick up a few sayings like:-

    Naw yae cannae
    How?
    Haud yer wheest
    etc
    etc

    I still get the micky taken out of me for my N.Irish accent!

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