Lead for a Catapult?

[Gus]

Embarrassing question ... how do YOU lead a catapult? I'm SURE that the grip for leading a catapult is the same as for any other move ... but recently I've come across people, insisting that you should change to a fingertip hook grip. Have I just slept and missed this way of doing it? Can someone calm my furrowed brow and let me know how people actually teach/lead the catapult.

[RobC]

The important part of the lead is the guy initially pulling downward and towards his right hip before then raising his right arm for the lady to turn under. The hand grip is not important.

What I would say though is, when it is usually taught, most teachers use the analogy of bowling a cricket ball. When the guys do this, their hand naturally twists to have their palm facing upward (rather than the 'usual' palm towards the guys, back of their fingers towards the ladies) which has the effect of changing the grip to your 'fingertip hook' grip.

[MartinHarper]

In Ceroc, I tend to use a comparatively more hooky grip for the catapult lead, palm upwards, to better distinguish it from a windmill, for which I tend to use a flatter palm-to-palm grip. Since the windmill and catapult are traditionally easily confused, I hope this helps.

In Jazz Jive, I lead it starting left to right, signal by bringing my right hand over onto the top of the lady's hand, then transfer hands, and pushing the lady's hand behind me. Incidentally, the Jazz Jive lead appears to work on Ceroc ladies, and vica versa.

[Gadget]

Recently (since the change) the lean bit has been noted that the hand hold should be changed so that thumbs point down; this is seemingly to avoid the ladies fingernail grip.
{* this is from Lisa (& poss Lorna?) so I don't know if it's an individual thing or a global change}

Personally, 90% of my lead is through contact with the tips of the fingers to the last joint of the fingers; the "fingernail grip" is only evident if ladies insist on taking the grip to the second joint and 'hooking' on.

It's like the "lean" bit - I saw someone (Bill I think) doing a straight lean (one foot infront of the other, the back one and body forming a line with weight leaning over the front one) instead of the standard lean (feet shoulder width appart and leaning forward) and started doing it this way myself. Since Lisa has been teaching, it's become a standard variation taught from the stage by both Lorna and Lisa. I prefer the first one because I can look as if I am leaning, but most of the weight is on my front foot and I am not relying on my partner stopping me falling on my face.

[Gus]

Recently (since the change) the lean bit has been noted that the hand hold should be changed so that thumbs point down; this is seemingly to avoid the ladies fingernail grip.

Thats part of the Ceroc (tm) training ... a key point that I've not seen any other association teach ... simple but invaluable point

Re the fingerhook lead it appears that its just a local thing, can bit annoying when you have followers trying to change their grip. Thought about it some more and must admit I cant see any reason not to use a standard grip ... was wondering if was a LeRoc thing?

[Trish]

Thats part of the Ceroc (tm) training ... a key point that I've not seen any other association teach ... simple but invaluable point

Re the fingerhook lead it appears that its just a local thing, can bit annoying when you have followers trying to change their grip. Thought about it some more and must admit I cant see any reason not to use a standard grip ... was wondering if was a LeRoc thing?

I dance at Ceroc central, and have been taught the fingerhook grip (when I'm leading - I didn't tend to notice such details before that!) . It mostly seems to be taught not as something that you have to do, but as something that makes the lead easier and less ambiguous (and stops the fingernail problem). Kirsty (at Peterborough) has definately shown it this way - even if the words weren't used, and I have a feeling that Michaela has mentioned it as well (although I couldn't swear to it). I guess it doesn't really matter now, but when the half-windmill was part of the beginner's class it definately helped stop the two being confused,, as already mentioned by Martin.

Trish

[Gadget]

... but when the half-windmill was part of the beginner's class it definately helped stop the two being confused,, as already mentioned by Martin.

I don't know if any ladies have been confused with my leading of the two moves, but as far as I am aware (or to be more accurate, the way I lead the moves ), they are completley different:

The start is the same - pull in, past the thigh and up.

For a cattapult...
: the hand is pushed slightly back as it's lowered to indicate that the lady should move backwards, some latteral guidance is also given to encourage them to move behind me.
: the spare hand is offered in conjunction with the lean at this point - both hands directly back from shoulders, not behind the back or to the side.
: a light step to the side while drawing the lady in with R hand to R hip and L arm extended to a barrier on the L
: R is dropped while L leads lady infront, then raised to continue the movement into a turn.

For the half windmill...
: a light step forward and to the side as the hand is lowered to directly behind (note - very little leading accross the floor: the lady is spinning and requires very little move her - very easy to throw her off ballance at this point )
: L hand catches dropped hand and continues smooth momentum upwards.
: Here I either turn to face, while continuing the arc into a turn, or take another small step to the side and draw the arc past the left thigh and up to turn the lady out.

The hand position and 'feel' for both should leave no doubt about what's happening - I think that it's the lead with that hand backwards through the cattapult that isn't really taught or highlighted when taught. Also the fact that the hand should not have traveled horizontally from brushing thigh to being behind.
{Well, that's what I do - please correct me if I'm wrong.}

[Dazzle]

When I first attended Ceroc in 2002 they taught the Catapult with the "hook" grip and still do in the few venues I still attend. I was taught to teach it with the hook grip lead too (Non CTA). The hand hold behind the back during the lean can be the same or with the hands with thumbs down if the lady is particularly well armed in the fingernail department. I always check them out before doing this move! My teaching has been more LeJive/Leroc biased to be honest. But I have seen it taught this way at Blitz too.

Noticed you taught it without the hook grip the other week Gus, but I adapt to the venue/teacher.

[DavidY]

Embarrassing question ... fingertip hook grip

Sorry to be so dumb myself - but what exactly is a fingertip hook grip?

[Gus]

Sorry to be so dumb myself - but what exactly is a fingertip hook grip?

On beat 2 (the step back) mans right hand is turned palm facing up, bending the fingers in at the second knuckle, lady reciprocating with their right hand palm facing down and hooking her fingers over the guys.

[Andy McGregor]

I think it depends on your intention.

Do you intend to stun your target or just surprise it?

[MartinHarper]

Extended blathering follows... add salt to taste.

I'd say that yes it's entirely possible to lead the difference between a windmill and a catapult with the same handhold, but for leaders or followers who have problems doing so, having a subtly different handhold is an additional aid for mere mortals.

For a catapult... the spare hand is offered in conjunction with the lean at this point - both hands directly back from shoulders, not behind the back or to the side.

Yes, but that's easy to mislead. Some poor leaders (inc. me) have a tendency to "throw" the follower's hand from right to left in the windmill. If you do a catapult with a light R-R handhold, then the offered left hand can look very much like a windmill with a throw.

For the half windmill ... a light step forward and to the side ... (note - very little leading accross the floor)

I've seen both variations taught. In a static windmill, the guy moves forward so the lady is spinning more-or-less in place. In a travelling windmill, the guy just moves to the side so the lady travels about four foot from her starting position. (Names made up on the spot). And anywhere in between, of course. Similarly, leaders can lead a catapult such that the follower is essentially static at either the beginning, or the end, or both, or they can lead it such that they don't move a foot and the lady whizzes around them. I don't know if any of these variants are considered "wrong", though.

Also, the follower's footwork is easier if you indicate a windmill vs a catapult at beat one, rather than at beat 2-2.5. If the lady inadvertantly does windmill footwork in a catapult, she'll have her left foot behind her right on beat three, rather than having feet together, and will therefore probably be too far away to grab the offered left hand: resulting in a desperate lean forward and racing the end of the move. Advance warning makes this less likely.

[Lou]

was wondering if was a LeRoc thing?

Yup. Sherif definitely teaches that grip. I'm pretty certain Elmgrove do too. Didn't know the thumbs down technique, but I can see it could come in ...errmmm... handy.

[under par]

Yup. Sherif definitely teaches that grip. I'm pretty certain Elmgrove do too. Didn't know the thumbs down technique, but I can see it could come in ...errmmm... handy.

Also been taught the fingertip grip all round the south coast.

[Gus]

Also been taught the fingertip grip all round the south coast.

I'm still not clear why. I dont see any reason to change grip. The fundamental point we try to teach is that moves are led by a light lead ... whereas a hook grip encourage the use of force. Why change a grip if you dont have to?

[Lou]

I'm still not clear why.

Dunno why, either. I've never really thought about it, but it does feel odd to go into a catapult without that grip, but that's probably only because it's what I'm used to. Sherif also taught another move with that grip last night - a Back to Back. The hook grip was quite useful there, as I needed a stronger lead to guide me into it.

[Rachel]

I'm still not clear why. I dont see any reason to change grip. The fundamental point we try to teach is that moves are led by a light lead ... whereas a hook grip encourage the use of force. Why change a grip if you dont have to?

Absolutely agree - I hate that grip! Feels horrible ... I've never known it to be specifically taught that way, but a lot of men seem to do it. So maybe, as Rob says, the teacher's analogy of bowling a ball makes them do this.
Rachel

[Gadget]

I'm still not clear why. I dont see any reason to change grip. The fundamental point we try to teach is that moves are led by a light lead ... whereas a hook grip encourage the use of force. Why change a grip if you dont have to?

I presume that it's for those who don't think they can get as much grip/purchace via a fingertip hold: you are meant to lean away from your partner - tension in the grip from supporting each other. The "proper" way should be that if you let go at this point, the lady would fall on her behind, and the man on his face. (well, that's what I've been lead to believe)

If there is this much tension, people assume that you need a firmer hand hold. I have proven to a few ladies that this is a false assumption, and am with Gus on being confused as to why a seperate hand hold is necessary or even advocated.

The only 'different' hand hold I have been known to use is the "butterfly" clasped hands where all/the majority of the lady's weight is going to be relying on this hold.

[Gus]

I presume that it's for those who don't think they can get as much grip/purchace via a fingertip hold: you are meant to lean away from your partner - tension in the grip from supporting each other. The "proper" way should be that if you let go at this point, the lady would fall on her behind, and the man on his face. (well, that's what I've been lead to believe).

Ahhh ...sorry Gadget ... we are talking at cross purposes. I'm talking about the lead into the move, i.e. beat 2, not the lean on beat 4.

[Gadget]

OK - I've never seen/experianced anything on beat 2 that indicates a different lead; I don't know how I could lead it differently