Rep comments - missing!

[Divissima]

This is a slight tangent to the main discussion, so I'll try to keep it brief.

I have to say that, like Chris, I have changed my point of view on rep being anonymous. I had initially supported it, but now I am increasingly uneasy about the potential for the system to be abused. I realise, as Sparkles says, that most users like the system as it is and it is only a small number who are likely to send negative rep such as Jayne received. One or two malicious cowards spoiling it for everyone else.

Here comes the tangent....

I have noticed that far more people are posting about anonymous rep they have received (whether positive or negative) than I can remember posting about PMs they have received. I believe this is because rep, particularly negative rep, has the potential to leave people wanting to reply, or at least explain or defend their initial post or point of view. PMs, in my opinion, seem to have been more effective in keeping private disagreements private - people can exchange views, even heated, views, off the public domain. Rep gives people little choice but to complain, explain or justify publicly. They can also appeal to the Moderators if they get something unpleasant - but so far we don't know what action, if any, the moderators can or will take.

I agree with Andy that the system promotes honesty - but I don't think that is enough without responsibility and accountability. I have seldom considered giving negative rep - and did so only at the beginning of the new system (I have since discussed the rep and apologised for it with the 2 repees). I think this forum should be about exchanging views (with accountability), it shouldn't be a popularity contest. And don't forget, some people have been upset by negative rep even where there was no comment attached.

[Bardsey]

Having said that I like the rep system. I think it provides a quick and simple feedback on what you have posted - whether serious or light-hearted.

For me the best solution would be to have the option on whether you accept anonymous rep comments. You still get signed comments, and you still get rep without comments. But unsigned ones are optional.

I'm not one for posting my opinions on the serious stuff (as most of you must realise) I just usually go for the "fun" stuff, but must admit I was really disappointed to find that ALL my rep comments have now disappeared. I haven't had any rep points since, so can't say whether or not I get to see anyone's comments or not.

I always signed my rep comments and only ever sent one neg (which was in fun) and signed it.

I agree with the above comments of DavidB.

Please bring back the rep comments, Franck!

[Pammy]

I must admit I'm shocked as to the anonomous comment that Jayne received. Perhaps alarmed would be a better word. I have read everyones comments and still feel so disappointed that this has happened. Jayne is one of the last people I would expect to receive negative rep. I was appauled at what was actually said to her and horrified to think it was someone amongst us that could pass that sort of comment on to her without batting an eyelid.

This is the sort of thing that upsets me. I can see why Jayne has removed her personal details from the site; knowing that this sort of person is lurking on here certainly makes me feel more than a little uneasy, and call me naive, but I really had no idea that anyone would/could be that nasty to someone like Jayne...

This isn't just negative rep. It's almost like "playground bullying" that you'd expect from a bunch of primary school children, and not adults, as we are, joined (most of the time as friends) by a common hobby.

[Franck]

as has been pointed out with the rep system as it was, you could try different people on ignore until you found out who sent you the rep when it failed to show up. I assume thats why Franck has removed the comments on USERCP ? Dont take it to heart Jayne, "constructive" comments like that should be treated with utmost disdain.

That was indeed the reason, once Dianas had posted a way to bypass the anonymity, I decided to remove all comments from the User cp.

I still believe the rep system (positive and negative & anonymous) is a useful addition to the Forum, and regret that a hack was discovered to remove the anonymity, as I agree with Andy Mc Gregor when he says that you get a truer reflection of the general Forum opinion when comments are anonymous.
There are many times when I disagree strongly with the views or the tone of a post, but wouldn't want to either, fall out with the poster (as they are friends or I would also agree with them on other topics) or I simply don't have the time to get into a long debate via PM, and the rep system allowed me to voice my disapproval without any of the above.
To me, the rep system, is a bit like shouting at the television when someone (usually a politician) makes a particularly stupid comment or someone reflects exactly what you would have said. It's quick, it's easy, and apart from a few 'offensive' comments, pretty harmless.

The general adage about not speaking in anger, should also apply to the rep system of course, and i reckon that in the light of recent OTT comments, everyone should take Sheepman's advice and wait an hour or so before giving negative reputation...

With regards to the future, I am considering the different options. Unfortunately, the software is not as flexible as I would like it to be (yet), so I can't implement DavidB's suggestion, but I will investigate further.

As far as actions taken by moderators regarding abuse of the anonymity of comments, my current view is to have a word with the anonymous poster and ask them to tone down their comments in future. Should they continue to be abusive (with the same or different people) I would prevent them from giving reputation in the first instance and ultimately, would ban anyone not listening.
Reading all the negative reputation comments made from day 1, none were genuinely meant as aggressively as they would have been perceived, and in my opinion, it is just a case of learning how to be more circumspect. Despite the aggressive words / tone, I am assured in all cases and believe that no harm was intended, just a case of over-reaction.

[Jayne]

I am assured in all cases and believe that no harm was intended, just a case of over-reaction.

Why wasn't that assurance passed on then?

I will reply in full later once I've calmed down. At the moment I am absolutely livid.

J

[Franck]

Why wasn't that assurance passed on then?

I will reply in full later once I've calmed down. At the moment I am absolutely livid.

Sorry Jayne,

I was away on holiday for 2 weeks, and only came back in time for the Champs on Saturday. I have a huge backlog of emails etc... so since speaking to the people concerned, haven't have a chance to reply to your PMs.

Also, just to clarify my post above (and specifically the bit you quoted), the over-reaction I was referring to, was on the part of the anonymous reppers, not on your part as I can totally understand that receiving insults and abuse is distressing.

[ChrisA]

To me, the rep system, is a bit like shouting at the television when someone (usually a politician) makes a particularly stupid comment or someone reflects exactly what you would have said. It's quick, it's easy, and apart from a few 'offensive' comments, pretty harmless.

Franck, I'm astonished at this poorly-thought-out comparison.

If you shout at the television the person in question doesn't hear, so no offence is given.

my current view is to have a word with the anonymous poster and ask them to tone down their comments in future. Should they continue to be abusive (with the same or different people) I would prevent them from giving reputation in the first instance and ultimately, would ban anyone not listening.

This simply is not good enough IMO. With other abusive comments, at least there is the right of reply since they are attributable. With rep comments they are not.

You've provided absolutely nothing to reassure anyone who receives abusive, threatening, or otherwise unpleasant anonymous private messages - for that is what they are.

Except the promise of what may or may not become a smack on the wrist for the perpetrator with no guarantee of feedback to the victim, and I don't think this is sufficient protection.

You say yourself that you've been on holiday for a fortnight, and have been unable to attend to the matter. Well I'd never say you shouldn't take holiday, but in the meantime distress has been caused with no possibility of comeback.

Are you planning to tell Jayne who sent her the rep? Presumably you know who it was, and have had, or are planning to have a chat with him or her. But it still doesn't give her the right to reply, which is surely pretty much intrinsic to the 'forum' spirit.

Reading all the negative reputation comments made from day 1, none were genuinely meant as aggressively as they would have been perceived, and in my opinion, it is just a case of learning how to be more circumspect. Despite the aggressive words / tone, I am assured in all cases and believe that no harm was intended, just a case of over-reaction.

Franck, with respect, this seems to me an abuse of power. You are setting yourself up, now, to moderate not only what goes on in public forum, but also private exchanges. You are now judge and jury, you decide what one person may say in private to another. And it's all one way, since the repper gets in first, after which it's up to your good offices as to whether it's allowed or not, and in retrospect too, after any damage has been done.

Now I'm not at all suggesting that you would ever do anything but your very best in these circumstances, but such moderation is inappropriate IMO, since it is not within your remit to judge what offence or hurt may be caused by one individual to another in private – and certainly not after the event. As I say, I believe it’s an abuse of power.

Chris

[RobC]

~~~~SNIP~~~~
Franck, with respect, this seems to me an abuse of power. You are setting yourself up, now, to moderate not only what goes on in public forum, but also private exchanges. You are now judge and jury, you decide what one person may say in private to another. And it's all one way, since the repper gets in first, after which it's up to your good offices as to whether it's allowed or not, and in retrospect too, after any damage has been done.

Now I'm not at all suggesting that you would ever do anything but your very best in these circumstances, but such moderation is inappropriate IMO, since it is not within your remit to judge what offence or hurt may be caused by one individual to another in private – and certainly not after the event. As I say, I believe it’s an abuse of power.

Chris

Chill Chris. This is Franck's playground and if you don't like the way he polices the playground bullies, you do have the choice of not coming into the playground.

The forum is a fantastic place, and Franck has done wonderful things here. At the end of the day, how many other people can claim to have taken up the gauntlet and setup an online meeting place (at their own cost) where people from around the globe can come together and freely discuss passionate subjects close to their hearts.

That said, I personally am firmly in the 'Reps should not be anonymous' camp. If someone has decided to make a comment on another persons posting, then there should always be the right to reply. It would be like standing outside AndyMcG's house and shouting "I don't like the colour of your doors", or "Your flower beds suck" and then running off before Andy has a chance to open the window to see who was shouting. It's not big and it's not clever and removing the anonymity will prevent it from happening.

[Bardsey]

outside AndyMcG's house and shouting "Your flower beds suck"

Do they? That's clever! I could be very naughty here, but I'll tame it and just say.........so if I chuck them a Rowntree's Fruit Pastille, they can't chew it?

[ChrisA]

Chill Chris. This is Franck's playground and if you don't like the way he polices the playground bullies, you do have the choice of not coming into the playground.

Totally agree. I'd rather not exercise that choice yet, though.

And I've seen no evidence of Franck's attitude being 'this is the way it is, put up with it or go away'. He's been very receptive to feedback in the past, to his credit.

The forum is a fantastic place, and Franck has done wonderful things here.

I agree with this too, as I'm on record as saying on numerous occasions.

That said, I personally am firmly in the 'Reps should not be anonymous' camp. If someone has decided to make a comment on another persons posting, then there should always be the right to reply. It would be like standing outside AndyMcG's house and shouting "I don't like the colour of your doors", or "Your flower beds suck" and then running off before Andy has a chance to open the window to see who was shouting. It's not big and it's not clever and removing the anonymity will prevent it from happening.

.......

Blimey, that's three agrees in the same post.

I need a lie down now.

Still think chiding an abuser after the fact if he judges it to be abuse, when there's no saying how much hurt has already been caused is totally out of order as a solution to the problem though.

Chris

[Franck]

If you shout at the television the person in question doesn't hear, so no offence is given.

Don't you wish they would though?
In any event, many people send comments / feedback anonymously or not, via mail, email and interactive television which will be viewable by the person it is directed against. I am sure some comments are a lot more offensive than anything that has gone on here.

You've provided absolutely nothing to reassure anyone who receives abusive, threatening, or otherwise unpleasant anonymous private messages - for that is what they are.

I only apologized for not being able to reply to Jayne during my absence. To date, there hasn't been any single anonymous threatening message sent via the rep system. Some of it has been insulting / offensive (and in Jayne's case, while the message was pretty clear, all the offensive words had been deleted or replaced by asterisks which suggests that the poster while angry at the time was still attempting to be civil at some level.

Are you planning to tell Jayne who sent her the rep? Presumably you know who it was, and have had, or are planning to have a chat with him or her. But it still doesn't give her the right to reply, which is surely pretty much intrinsic to the 'forum' spirit.

I don't need to tell Jayne who it was as, thanks to Dianas' tip, she was able to work it out already.
In most cases, I wouldn't name the anonymous repper either. If anyone wants to reply, they can do so, as was done before by posting an open reply to the anonymous poster. In my opinion though, it is best to ignore childish insults and move on. Which is why, I have now hidden all the comments, so they can easily be ignored.

Franck, with respect, this seems to me an abuse of power. You are setting yourself up, now, to moderate not only what goes on in public forum, but also private exchanges.

I don't understand where you're coming from here. From the start of the forum (and since the introduction of the rep system) it was made very clear that myself and moderators had access to and were able to moderate posts, and reputation comments. No new 'power', as you refer to it, has been granted.
I understand that on this occasion, you and Jayne disagree with my decision, and I'm indeed listening to your (public and private) pleas. I haven't made my mind up on how to handle the rep system yet, but will not take any knee-jerk reaction (beyond removing the comments, which I see as a temporary fix).
As this community grows ever larger, more boundaries will be tested, and some decisions will be wrong and the challenges will help develop and improve the Forum.
As I was typing this reply I noticed more posts and wanted to reply to this specific point:

Still think chiding an abuser after the fact if he judges it to be abuse, when there's no saying how much hurt has already been caused is totally out of order as a solution to the problem though.

I believe that it is the only way.
I can either remove the reputation system, and ultimately remove the ability for any guest to post anywhere etc... but if anyone decides to abuse the system, then generally the damage will be done before I can prevent it.
Hiding the comments will give myself and the moderators more time to spot abusive messages and delete them before they are noticed, but ultimately, the success of the rep system and of the forum will rely on each of us behaving better (being more careful in what we post and more tolerant of others). I sincerely hope and believe this will work!

[Sheepman]

if anyone decides to abuse the system, then generally the damage will be done before I can prevent it.

Which pretty much reflects real life, I don't see how it could be otherwise. (e.g take the case of advertising, (excluding TV ads,) advertisers are expected to conform to a code of conduct, but there is no moderator who is approving advertising before it appears. Ads are often pulled after the event when complaints are made about them.

People can cause offence be it anonymously or not, (we've seen it in posts here before, when it certainly wasn't anonymous). I think if we were to move to a system where everything was moderated before posting, the forum would soon be dead, but surely that is the only way that any damage could be prevented?

There is the argument about not having a right of reply to an anonymous repper, though I think as we have seen in the number of cases where discussions have followed from rep comments that have been posted up, there is certainly a "public" right of reply.

I can't say that the anonymous or not issue is one I feel especially strongly about, but I'm sure there are people who have valid reasons for wanting to remain anonymous, for positive or negative rep. Personally I felt the system was good as it was, OK it wasn't totally anonymous if you used Diana's method, but IMO you have to be pretty worked up about something before you will bother going through a list of possibly 100s of people in order to find out who repped you, and presumably all active members are pretty aware of how it was working. I'm reminded of the saying "Bad cases make bad law."

Greg

[ChrisA]

Big snip

Whatever you say Franck; I'm obviously not getting through here. [sigh]

One last post from me on this thread...

I think Rob summed it up - sending a nasty comment and running away isn't big and it isn't clever, and making remarks attributable would either stop people from doing it, or at least give the right of reply, which is what I think the forum should be largely about.

I suppose I'm just being naive.

I suppose I'm just disappointed that such a friendly place as this would end up with any kind of system where anonymous nastiness was made so simple to achieve.

Thank you for disillusioning me.

Chris, naive no longer

[Gus]

I suppose I'm just disappointed that such a friendly place as this would end up with any kind of system where anonymous nastiness was made so simple to achieve.

Come on Chris .... this forum is full of people with a passionate interest ... so its unfortunately invetiable that strong feelings will lead to strong expresssions. Given the fact that the interest is dance, then you also have to deal with all the egos that go with that. Passion AND egos ... it surprises me that there aren't more spats

Given the politics, personalities and hidden agendas that pervade, I think that Franck and his team do a superb job with this forum. Its great that people can put forward views as to how to improve the forum ... but I'd far prefer to have the current forum (warts and all) than none at all.

[ChrisA]

Ok, then, one more

Come on Chris .... this forum is full of people with a passionate interest ... so its unfortunately invetiable that strong feelings will lead to strong expresssions. Given the fact that the interest is dance, then you also have to deal with all the egos that go with that. Passion AND egos ... it surprises me that there aren't more spats

I totally agree. And I've said much the same thing on numerous occasions.

I'm all for a bit of rowdiness once in a while, and I'm not shy of getting stuck in. And I'm perfectly capable sometimes of generating more heat than light - I'm pretty passionate myself , and not entirely ego-free, I must admit

It's the anonymity I disagree with. If someone has the balls to post a strongly worded comment, then fine, I'd much rather people said what they mean rather than being complete jessies about expressing their opinion.

But not anonymously. That, I despise.

Chris

[Lounge Lizard]

there is a commercial angle here - Franck keeps all rep annonymous, then puts on a big dance where all the names behind the annonymous reps are displayed....but for that night only.
Think a lot might go to check that one out.

[bigdjiver]

Personally, I don't understand why people feel the need for anonymous reps (positive or negative). If you feel that strongly about something to make a comment, surely you would want your name associated with the comment ? ...

If someone gives me a positive rep I feel bad if I have not given them one they have deserved, when the reason was lack of time or laziness. On the premise that others might feel the same, and because I do not wish to descend into luvviness, I mostly keep my positive reps anonymous. I have decided not to give negative ones, and to either respond instead via PM or on the forum.

[Pammy]

I think I'm slightly missing the point here as well. It's not about positive rep - yay, they're great to read, or negative rep - they're constructive and in their own way positive too.

What the Jayne debate is about is threatening rep. Negative rep does not need to use swear words or unpleasant references as to what you can do with your thoughts etc. We don't talk to each other like that on the forum??? Whoever wrote that message was all to aware that we don't use that sort of language to express ourselves on the forum as it can be taken in so many different ways and so whoever it was knew that she would take the rep in a way that upset her. That is what is unacceptable.

I'm all for negative rep's that say, anonomously or not "I think you're point was sarcastic and insulting" etc. but not the sort that Jayne received. That sort of behaviour has to be stamped out. If I received a message like Jayne's, I would be incredibly disturbed by it. Call me naive if you like, but I really would be very upset, as I think she probably is (although I've not spoken to her about it). Knowing that someone has that sort of strong negative feeling about you, and is someone you could possibly be standing next to whenever you go out dancing must be an awful feeling and I really feel for Jayne in this....

Again though, it's a shame that someone would come onto the forum and want to make a comment that would cause Jayne upset, cause Franck hassle in trying to work out the best way of dealing with it etc. etc.

Negative Rep : Fine.
Positive Rep: Fine.
Anonymous Rep: Fine.
Just no nastiness or threatening rep either....

[Jayne]

I'm all for negative rep's that say, anonomously or not "I think you're point was sarcastic and insulting" etc. but not the sort that Jayne received. That sort of behaviour has to be stamped out. If I received a message like Jayne's, I would be incredibly disturbed by it. Call me naive if you like, but I really would be very upset, as I think she probably is (although I've not spoken to her about it). Knowing that someone has that sort of strong negative feeling about you, and is someone you could possibly be standing next to whenever you go out dancing must be an awful feeling and I really feel for Jayne in this....

That's exactly the point Pammy - and one that Franck seems unable to grasp.

I've had neg rep about other things and I've taken it on board (I'd thank the person, but it was another anonymous one.)

But this rep was different. I was terribly upset by it. I was sitting at work, minding my own business and all of a sudden I got that (albeit censored) foul-mouthed outburst sent to me personally. It wasn't just shouting at the TV, it wasn't an advert by the road - it was deliberately sent to me.

Now if it was signed by someone like Andy (love ya babe - you're just my example! ) then I could a)PM him, b)speak to him about it or c) think "oh, it's Andy. I wouldn't expect anything else from him".

BUT

This was unsigned.

I had NO idea who it had come from.

I didn't know if they were just a "standard to$$er" or someone who had a real grudge against me. I didn't know how much they knew about me. Or if they felt so strongly about it as to do other things to me. OK, looking back it would be easy to say that that's an over-reaction - but I had no idea how serious the threat was or where it was coming from. I was literally scared $hitle$$ to go dancing again.

Can you imagine how you would feel if you started receiving anonymous letters in that tone through the post? Or if you received a heavy breathing phone call? Now take that emotion and double it - because you know that the abuse has most likely come from someone you know.

Now Franck's so-called argument is that he's spoken to the person who sent it to me and is "assured in all cases and believe that no harm was intended". Really?? Like they're going to say otherwise? Well that's of no reassurance to me Franck.

His policy seems to be to let people send abuse and then once it's happened to have a nice quiet word with the abuser - and say nothing to the abused. Franck doesn't know if I know who sent it to me. And he is withholding that information from me.

This isn't a case of random outbursts at the TV or offensive advertising campaigns Franck. This is personal abuse sent from one person to another. The result of which is much upset on the part of the recipient and a cozy wee protective bubble for the abuser.

Franck, you seem to be fogetting that you now have paying customers. This doesn't just mean income for you. It means that you have a responsibility to your paying customers. You seem to be fogetting this latter point. I would put this in a PM - but it appears that you haven't read the previous ones I sent you (unless you can manipulate the forum like that, being supreme forum moderator). And if you have read them you haven't had the courtesy to reply.

Sorry if the language in this post offended anyone - this is the toned down version of what I felt like posting yesterday.

J

[bigdjiver]

I think I too am coming around to the view that the rep system has more downside than upside.