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Thread: Shoulder Drop

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    Registered User stewart38's Avatar
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    Shoulder Drop

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh
    I saw a large number of (I assume) first timers last night, who seemed completely overwhelmed by what they felt was expected of them - I wouldn't be suprised if they didn't come back, but that was based on seeing them at the end of the lesson, rather than the end of the night. Discount vouchers sort of work for this, since it's nice to be able to 'spend' them! Actual cost isn't so important, imo.

    Sean
    Are we not just making beginners sessions too hard. I attended one the other day that had 5 moves and foot work.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    Are we not just making beginners sessions too hard. I attended one the other day that had 5 moves and foot work.
    Yup ... I saw that routine ... I think this is part of the centralised routines from HQ. If so whoever put that routine together should have been shot! It put undue pressure on the Teacher, it didnt flow, I couldnt see what it was trying to teach the beginners and (most importantly) the beginners were totaly confused about it! I think that what ceroc has done in challenging the traditional format is laudable BUT I have extreme reservation about regarding the shoulderdrop (one of those five moves) as a beginner move. I taught it in intermediate last week and there is a fair amount of movement and co-ordination to convey to the class ... NOt a beginner move (IMHO).

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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    .... BUT I have extreme reservation about regarding the shoulderdrop (one of those five moves) as a beginner move. I taught it in intermediate last week and there is a fair amount of movement and co-ordination to convey to the class ... NOt a beginner move (IMHO).
    I'm kind of boycotting this thread a little, but I've been absolutely seething since last night when something happened, and I really need to get it off my chest (so please forgive me!).

    Marc was having to teach that beginners' routine last night with the shoulder drop. Because it was a long routine and, for some reason, we had a huge number of brand new people, he altered the shoulder drop move slightly to make it easier. And everyone seemed fine with this.

    However, I was helping out during the refresher class, and the taxi dancer who was teaching came to the shoulder drop move. He then said to everyone - 'when Marc taught this in the class, he did it wrong. It should be done ... And isn't that so much more stylish?'

    I was so angry - for all he knew, Marc had good reasons to alter the move, and he never discussed it with Marc before the refresher. At the very least, it's completely impolite/insulting to announce to all the beginners that the teacher is wrong! I'm even more angry with myself for not saying something about it to this taxi - or the venue manager. I kept putting it off cos every time I saw him, he was talking to beginners and I didn't want to interrrupt or say anything in front of other people. I should have said something, though, and I'm really kicking myself now.

    Anyway, that's my rant over for today. Sorry! All I can say is, the sooner they organise training for people who teach the refresher classes, the better.
    Rachel

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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    ... I have extreme reservation about regarding the shoulderdrop as a beginner move. (IMHO).


    Definitely not a beginner move. It wiped out a couple of beginner guys at the class I was at. They could not get it, even with help from partners, and that failure spread through the rest of the routine. "I can normally do that one ..."

    It is probably just me, but I find it is also very hard on my left shoulder when I am not warmed up.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel
    However, I was helping out during the refresher class, and the taxi dancer who was teaching came to the shoulder drop move. He then said to everyone - 'when Marc taught this in the class, he did it wrong. It should be done ... And isn't that so much more stylish?'
    Rule 1 Teacher is ALWAYS right
    Ruke 2 When a Teacher is wrong ... see Rule1

    I can sympathise with that incident totaly. During Teacher training it is(was) custom for the trainee teachers to help out the Taxi dancers at a local club. Iw as doing this at Fulham .. showing the intial grip and how to get into a first move. The lead taxi dancer watching we with an expression that could only be described as mild contempt and .. as I finished the talk through ... proceeded to teach the hold totaly differently commenting that "the theory is fine but in practice ..." etc. etc. Must admit that its the closest I've ever come to decking someone at a MJ event

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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Yup ... was Mick taking ... lots of venues I know either dont have the facility or just dont bother. My main bugbear is that the majority of Taxi dancers I have seen really dont know how to coach beginners. Not their fault, they just haven't been trained properly ... and we wonder why we loose 90 - 96% of beginners within a few months
    I'd agree with this. I've experienced a big variation in teaching (as opposed to dancing) ability with taxis, but in general the 'review' session was almost entirely focused on the coarse structure of the moves. This is backed up with a strong tendancy for taxis to try and lead (or play an awkward follow). I was also told off by a taxi for jumping straight in with 3 consecutive nights in my first week (as I turned up!)

    Most useful, I think, are the follows who mis-interpret my signals until I am clearer, and the ones who pick up on a single repeated mistake and then bother to explain it at the end of a dance! Some taxis do this, but so do a few of the other experienced dancers.

    Sean

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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Teacher is ALWAYS right
    Contradicting the teacher to beginners can increase confusion for little gain, certainly. I wonder Gus - as a visitor, perhaps you were contradicting the Fulham teacher and regulars, who perhaps had his own style of grip? If so, the taxi had to say something to reduce the potential for beginner confusion.

    Still, I'm sure he could have handled it better.

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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    I wonder Gus - as a visitor, perhaps you were contradicting the Fulham teacher and regulars, who perhaps had his own style of grip? If so, the taxi had to say something to reduce the potential for beginner confusion.
    Hmm ... the teacher was Viktor .... not likely to correct him! Interesting point but the disagreement was a fundamental point ... of NOT using a tight hold on the ladies hand. As a trainee Ceroc teacher the idea was that we were passing on the techniques straight form the 'horses mouth' As Ceroc puts great store on a standardised approach I think they would get very concerned if basics like that were being taught differently. Modifying a move is one thing, changing a basic is another.

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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by stewart38
    Are we not just making beginners sessions too hard. I attended one the other day that had 5 moves and foot work.
    I don't think so. To start with, I found I could just keep up with the pace of the class (with some help from follower). After the revision session, it sort of made sense - and there was certainly a sense of achievement! The problem is not so much the complexity of the moves, but the huge number of different things that a beginner needs to learn all at once, e.g. leading/following, how to hold hands, which foot is left and right, which way to turn.

    Make the routine much simpler, and there wouldn't be much to practice for the rest of the evening. Expectation management might be something to think more about though - the first lession will be tough! The pink sticker seems good for this - it saves apologising to anyone who asks you to dance, and seems to get you lots of attention!

    Maybe the shoulder drop is a bit tricky (think I did it in my first class), but no more so than firstmove (too much footwork!), yoyo (both need to understand what happens!), octopus (which arm goes where, and which way do I turn), or catapult (too much moving about and turning). Is it a new move, or just new to beginners?

    Sean

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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by tsh
    . . . Maybe the shoulder drop is a bit tricky (think I did it in my first class), but no more so than firstmove (too much footwork!), yoyo (both need to understand what happens!), octopus (which arm goes where, and which way do I turn), or catapult (too much moving about and turning). Is it a new move, or just new to beginners?

    Sean
    The first move is tricky, but it is so useful for regaining control of partner that I would keep it as a beginner move.
    I am neutral on the Yo-Yo. There is a hazard for ladies who do not get it right to crash chest into arm.
    I have no problem in leading ladies who have never done an octopus or catapult before, but the octopus was difficult for me to learn in the first place, and I lacked the confidence to do the catapult for a while. Both the octopus and the catapult have sufficient "Wow" factor for non-dancers to retain my vote as beginner moves.

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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdjiver


    Definitely not a beginner move. It wiped out a couple of beginner guys at the class I was at. They could not get it, even with help from partners, and that failure spread through the rest of the routine. "I can normally do that one ..."

    It is probably just me, but I find it is also very hard on my left shoulder when I am not warmed up.
    Can anybody describe fully the shoulder drop move?

    Is it lead from a hatchback?

    Any clues please for someone who doesn't visit many Ceroc classes. Call me a heretic if you want !!!! But there aren't too many in Sussex.

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    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by under par
    Can anybody describe fully the shoulder drop move?
    I saw it recently... it went like this IIRC:

    Start guy's L lady's R.

    Count 1: step back (as ever)
    Count 2: return the lady
    Count 3: guy turns clockwise a half turn and combs himself to end up with his L and the lady's R on his R shoulder.
    Count 4: guy steps forward (ie away from the lady) and drops lady's R hand from his shoulder into his R hand.

    Finish like a catapult.

    It's the count 3 bit that's difficult for beginners, since there's quite a lot to do all at once.

    It's the same problem with the new version of the yoyo - the turn-to-face for the guy taking place at the same time as leading the lady back in from the step out. Requires a bit of multi-tasking, which can be a little difficult for beginner guys.

    Chris

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    Shoulderdrop

    The one I was shown (Ceroc Kidderminster) was similar to Chris's. Starting R-R, though

    Count 1: step back (if you do footwork, lady back right, man back left)
    Count 2: return the lady, but drop hands down to shoulder height, not waist height.
    Count 3: guy turns clockwise a half turn and drops hands onto R shoulder.
    Count 4: guy sidesteps left, and leads the girl to sidestep right
    Count 5: back to #3
    Count 6: guy steps forward (ie away from the lady) and drops lady's R hand from his shoulder into his L hand.
    Count 7: guy pulls lady forward and turns her half a turn anti-clockwise
    Count 8: step back.

    If it's not just part of the shoulderdrop, does the 4&5 bit have a name?

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    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulderdrop

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    The one I was shown (Ceroc Kidderminster) was similar to Chris's. Starting R-R, though

    Count 1: step back (if you do footwork, lady back right, man back left)
    Count 2: return the lady, but drop hands down to shoulder height, not waist height.
    Count 3: guy turns clockwise a half turn and drops hands onto R shoulder.
    Count 4: guy sidesteps left, and leads the girl to sidestep right
    Count 5: back to #3
    Count 6: guy steps forward (ie away from the lady) and drops lady's R hand from his shoulder into his L hand.
    Count 7: guy pulls lady forward and turns her half a turn anti-clockwise
    Count 8: step back.

    If it's not just part of the shoulderdrop, does the 4&5 bit have a name?
    Hmm. This is certainly the way it's described on the Ceroc Kidderminster web site - there's quite a lot in it for a beginners move.

    I wonder if the version I saw was simplified for the class it was taught in?

    Chris

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    Re: Strategies to keep beginners

    Your right Martin.....that is the whole move. I think it's way too long and complicated and don't see how they can justify putting something like that in the beginners moves and then putting the wurlitzer and hallelujah in intermediates.........?????

    filthycute x x

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    Omnipotent Moderatrix (LMC)
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    Re: Shoulderdrop

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    If it's not just part of the shoulderdrop, does the 4&5 bit have a name?
    'That bit people miss out in freestyle' ?

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    Ceroc Teacher Gordon J Pownall's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulderdrop

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    If it's not just part of the shoulderdrop, does the 4&5 bit have a name?
    Well...this is how I tend to call it as the move is danced...

    1.
    Gordy
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    'Τα δόντια μου είναι μου δικοί - οι γόμμες δεν είναι'

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    Ceroc Teacher Gordon J Pownall's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Shoulderdrop

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    If it's not just part of the shoulderdrop, does the 4&5 bit have a name?
    Well...this is how I tend to call it as the move is danced...

    1. Step Back
    2. Turn the lady
    3. To the shoulder

    4. NASTY
    5. NASTY

    6. Catch
    7. Under
    8. Step back


    Not the most popular move, but certainly not difficult....it depends on what else is being taught within the routine.....

    Problems arise with the set routines where there are sometimes 5 moves and footwork to consider and the moves could be 7 or eight beats long and whilst it is a good idea to standardise the beginners moves within Ceroc, I'm not sure that it remains a good idea to standardise the routines.

    It certainly has taken away artistic license from the teachers to set a beginners routine that meets the needs of the class on that night ie. lots of new members / no new members etc. etc.

    I believe the idea was to have a video on the CEROC website of each routine for people to view however a better idea may be to just video the beginners moves for people.

    As long as the teacher has his or her own rolling programme of beginners moves to ensure that all the moves are covered regularly and none are missed out or avoided being taught there shouldn't be a problem....

    I used a form for this, held by the venue manager from week to week - worked amazingly well...

    Oh well.....what do other Ceroc teachers think...???
    Gordy
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    'Τα δόντια μου είναι μου δικοί - οι γόμμες δεν είναι'

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    Re: Shoulderdrop

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon J Pownall
    . . . and whilst it is a good idea to standardise the beginners moves within Ceroc, I'm not sure that it remains a good idea to standardise the routines.

    It certainly has taken away artistic license from the teachers to set a beginners routine that meets the needs of the class on that night ie. lots of new members / no new members etc. etc.
    I do know beginners who benefit from the common routines on the same night policy.

    I do know of times where the set routine does not fit the class profile, and the teachers were not happy.

    If there are variations of beginner moves in the intermediate, then it might be helpful to have the freedom to teach those beginner moves that night to help the transition dancers.

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    Ceroc Teacher Little Em's Avatar
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    Re: Shoulderdrop

    [QUOTE=Gordon J Pownall]Well...

    4. NASTY
    5. NASTY





    We were told to say
    4. Away
    5. Together

    if you really wanted to know that!!!!!!!

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