When we say "Im not good enough for you" (dance)

[Sparkles]

don't dance with beginners...

after all, if one can't stand the heat...

[Forte]

Er, why on earth would it put you off?

Lots of 1st time beginners say this - it's because they feel awkward, uncoordinated, foolish - any one of a number of things people feel when they start learning something.

If I'm taxiing and they say this to me, I sometimes grin at them and say "you're supposed to be crap for the first few weeks, otherwise we'd have nothing to teach you". That always gets a smile and breaks the ice.

Or I may say "It's completely normal to feel crap at the beginning but don't let that put you off - you should have seen me when I started, I was dreadful"

Or if I can tell they're going to be able to learn to follow pretty quickly, I stick my neck out and say "I promise you, you won't feel so bad by the end of this track" - and watch them start to get a grin a mile wide as they start to dance.

IMHO, if you're an experienced dancer and you can't do/say something along these lines, and in particular if it puts you off when they talk like that, then you shouldn't dance with first time beginners. And it's not enough just to say they aren't crap, cos it sounds like you're bullsh1tt1ng them, which will make it worse for them.

Chris

Sigh! I can't wait to dance with you! You say such lovely things and are a real dance ambassador.

[stewart38]

Let me suggest a motto: "When in a hole, stop digging."

If you, a dancer of 10 years' standing, have to listen to a 1st-time beginner saying they're crap, or expressing their feeling of awkwardness in any damn way whatsoever, then your job is to do everything in your power to make the dance as enjoyable and fun as damn well possible, and leave them feeling a little less crap.

It is not to feel "put off" yourself, poor diddums.

If you can't do that, don't dance with beginners.

Oh yes, and what Pammy said about body language...

Chris

why do threads now always soon go to personal attack ?

you dont know me chris so you dont know what i say. I always offer support and will continue to dance with beginners.

[ChrisA]

why do threads now always soon go to personal attack ?

you dont know me chris so you dont know what i say. I always offer support and will continue to dance with beginners.

Well I'm sorry if you feel it was a personal attack. It wasn't. It was an expression of my irritation with what sounded to me like an appallingly self-indulgent attitude towards beginners.

I'll say it again:

If a 1st time beginner is feeling awkward and keeps saying she's crap, even several times, you have no business feeling "put off". You are the one with all the experience and know-how, she is a 1st timer, for heavens sake.

In those situations, as the saying goes, "it's not about you".

If you can't cope with it, or if you aren't capable of making the beginner feel "not crap" (and this of course may not even be possible in extreme cases, although there are incredibly few of those, in my experience), then I find myself very much in the position of sympathy with the beginner, not with you I'm afraid.

As far as not knowing what you say is concerned, well this is of course true. If you think I've misinterpreted you, and you're interested enough, feel free to re-express your point, because if you're not being self-indulgent, then I fail to understand where you're coming from in either of your posts on the subject of "feeling put-off".

Chris

[ChrisA]

Sigh! I can't wait to dance with you! You say such lovely things and are a real dance ambassador.

You're most kind.

I try. I don't always succeed. But when I fail, I try (not always successfully, but increasingly so) to blame myself, not someone else. I can't improve others, but I can improve myself - so that's where I start.

Chris

[stewart38]

I'll say it again:

If a 1st time beginner is feeling awkward and keeps saying she's crap, even several times, you have no business feeling "put off". You are the one with all the experience and know-how, she is a 1st timer, for heavens sake.

In those situations, as the saying goes, "it's not about you".

If you can't cope with it, or if you aren't capable of making the beginner feel "not crap" (and this of course may not even be possible in extreme cases, although there are incredibly few of those, in my experience), then I find myself very much in the position of sympathy with the beginner, not with you I'm afraid.

As far as not knowing what you say is concerned, well this is of course true. If you think I've misinterpreted you, and you're interested enough, feel free to re-express your point, because if you're not being self-indulgent, then I fail to understand where you're coming from in either of your posts on the subject of "feeling put-off".

Chris

Try slagging someone else off im not responding in an open forum

[ChrisA]

Try slagging someone else off im not responding in an open forum

I have no desire to slag anyone off. If it helps, then I withdraw, with apologies, the "poor diddums" reference. Though in the interests of balance, I would like to thank the person who gave me positive rep for it

However, in open forum I can report that it has been suggested to me in a PM (it would be inappropriate to disclose from whom) that I stop being "bloody rude to people on the forum" and that "I do this to people again and again".

In the same PM I was also asked where I dance. Needless to say, I found this mildly threatening so I chose not to answer the question.

All I can say is that if there's a consensus that I am repeatedly rude to people (other than Andy and Trampy, obviously), then please would any of my victims take the trouble to PM me with an example, and I will be only too glad to apologise to them for any rudeness.

Chris

[MartinHarper]

If you can't cope with (a beginner saying she's crap), or if you aren't capable of making the beginner feel "not crap", ...

I've carefully reviewed this thread, and was unable to find any post by Stewart indicating that he is incapable of coping with a self-deprecating beginner, or of boosting her self esteem. I was wondering where you picked that up from?

[ChrisA]

I've carefully reviewed this thread, and was unable to find any post by Stewart indicating that he is incapable of coping with a self-deprecating beginner, or of boosting her self esteem. I was wondering where you picked that up from?

You're right. He has indicated no such opinion of himself, and nor do I offer one.

My position is that someone that's been dancing MJ for 10 years should not feel put off by a beginner saying that she's crap. He should be able to take it in his stride, and make the beginner feel less crap.

Maybe he did this, I don't know.

I just picked up on Stewart's comment about feeling put off, which struck me as a bit strange coming from an experienced dancer. And I asked why he felt put off, which he didn't really answer, other than to say that if the beginner had phrased her expression of awkwardness differently, he wouldn't have felt so put off.

Maybe it would be helpful to hear what it put him off doing. Or if he simply didn't understand why a beginner would refer to herself as crap, I and others have given plenty of explanation of why this is often the case.

Chris

[TheTramp]

(other than Andy and Trampy, obviously)

That's a bit crap, isn't it Andy!!

Trampy

[Andy McGregor]

All I can say is that if there's a consensus that I am repeatedly rude to people (other than Andy and Trampy, obviously), then please would any of my victims take the trouble to PM me with an example, and I will be only too glad to apologise to them for any rudeness.

Chris

ChrisA can be rude to me any time he likes - and he often is. But he always gives me a reasoned argument. Of course that argument is usually flawed, probably on purpose, so I get the opportunity to gainsay ChrisA's point with even more rudeness ...

.. probably

But, ChrisA and I understand each others motivation. ChrisA is a sincere and earnest dancer who has a particular vision of the way the world should be - and I'm fickle and will do anything to get a laugh ...

Don't ask me why I'm like this, I wish I knew.

What point am I making? None that I'm aware of: but ChrisA is probably right, whatever it is that he's saying

p.s. ChrisA is a nice guy. Don't be confused by him disagreeing with you, he really does like everyone and want to think the best of them

p.p.s. ChrisA for Forum O.D.A. - move over Gus, you've been far too reasonable for too long

[Andy McGregor]

That's a bit crap, isn't it Andy!!

Trampy

We've been tarred with the same brush. What have we done to deserve that

Anyone remember what this thread was about?

Oh yes, I'm not good enough for you. Well, there's always a difference between partners. And that's what makes it fun. I recently danced with Mrs Ceroc (Linda Barker) and felt like there were buttons I wasn't pressing because I didn't know they were there. She was fabulous and did everything I led - but was there more I could have done for her? Will I ever know?

[MartinHarper]

People get put off by different things. Some people are put off by swearing. Some people are put off by shorts. I'm put off by lime green. Ghastly colour. Doesn't effect my dancing, though. Unless I get temporarilly blinded and dance them into a wall.

When I've been dancing MJ for ten years, should I no longer feel put off by someone wearing lime green? If I did still feel put off, would that be appallingly self-indulgent attitude? Should I no longer dance with such unfashionable people?

Feelings are just feelings.

[under par]

I'm definitely not with it today ... I've just been trying to figure out which move could possibly be called the 'Redcurrant hand jive'!
R.

You need some help

[under par]

[QUOTE=Daisy ChainPersonally, I'd never tell a man that I wasn't good enough to dance with him.............................I'd let him find out for himself and then agree with him that all my errors must be his fault as he is leading. After all, whatever is wrong, it's always the man's fault.

Daisy
(A fussy little flower)[/QUOTE]


ALWAYS the mans fault for not leading it properly.. that is what I say to every lady I dance with especially when Ive just trod on their toe or fluffed a move.

[under par]

The exact words you use do not matter, but gently you need to explain

The best way to improve your dancing is to dance

Your first lessons are always then most difficult

And next time you dance with them let them know their dancing has improved

[under par]

Let me suggest a motto: "When in a hole, stop digging."

If you, a dancer of 10 years' standing, have to listen to a 1st-time beginner saying they're crap, or expressing their feeling of awkwardness in any damn way whatsoever, then your job is to do everything in your power to make the dance as enjoyable and fun as damn well possible, and leave them feeling a little less crap.

It is not to feel "put off" yourself, poor diddums.

If you can't do that, don't dance with beginners.

Oh yes, and what Pammy said about body language...

Chris

When dancing locally I make a point of dancing with as many people as possible. That includes beginners and all those shy ones that sit 3 back from the dance floor.
Many make comments or state how bad they are or how few times they have danced.

I ask them to enjoy the dance follow my hands and tell them that any mistakes are down to me not leading properly.

It's amazing how good some of the dances are when you take the pressure off of the lady and how much the dance is appreciated after.

I like some of ChrisA's tactful helpful responses and will try to remember some of them too.

[quiet_flame]

When dancing locally I make a point of dancing with as many people as possible. That includes beginners and all those shy ones that sit 3 back from the dance floor.

Don't let them think becuase they hide at the back they are safe from the dance floor. Can't let the shy ones stay off the dance floor because (from personal experience) I find they end up being the loudest and most obnoxious dancers once they get the bug that is CMJ

It's amazing how good some of the dances are when you take the pressure off of the lady and how much the dance is appreciated after.

Totally agree with you here, I try to "wrong foot 'em" in other words completely distract them from their "begginner status".
I consider it a challenge: if they say they're crap, (cos I most definately am) I have to prove to them they are not crap and are perfectly capable dancers. For every "sorry" there's a laugh, for every apologetic look there's an "I don't care, you're a begginer".

In the end they have to have fun, I try to make them laugh so they understand there really isnt' a "right or wrong way" as such in CMJ, pobody's nerfect and really, I'm just a begginer (like trampy's free email accounts), cos I learn something new everday at Ceroc.

[ChrisA]

so I get the opportunity to gainsay ChrisA's point with even more rudeness ...

Yep, I'd be worried if there was any break from this tradition...

ChrisA is a sincere and earnest dancer

You calling me "earnest", you old git?

Now that is the ultimate rudeness.

p.s. ChrisA is a nice guy. Don't be confused by him disagreeing with you, he really does like everyone and want to think the best of them

Don't you believe it. I am perfectly capable of disagreeing politely with someone and still thinking they're a complete ****er.

And of disagreeing rudely with someone and thinking they're a top bloke, too, of course.

Chris

PS Please, not ODA. I don't like anything too official. UDA, maybe... I prefer to work freelance

[ChrisA]

People get put off by different things. Some people are put off by swearing. Some people are put off by shorts. I'm put off by lime green. Ghastly colour. Doesn't effect my dancing, though. Unless I get temporarilly blinded and dance them into a wall.

When I've been dancing MJ for ten years, should I no longer feel put off by someone wearing lime green? If I did still feel put off, would that be appallingly self-indulgent attitude? Should I no longer dance with such unfashionable people?

Feelings are just feelings.

Well, I was interpreting the original words "it put me off" as implying a reduced inclination to, or a reduced ability to, dance sensitively with the beginner concerned.

As in "it put me off my food", or "it put him off his putt and he missed the hole".

If lime green doesn't affect your dancing, I would argue it doesn't put you off.

Comparing a colour preference (which presumably isn't dependent on one's dance abilities that develop over time) with the difference in the way an experienced dancer might react to a beginner's awkwardness, compared with the way a less experienced dancer might, is IMHO a rather facile argument.

But you're right, feelings are just feelings.

Here's a rhetorical question, though. Do you think a dancer who feels "put off" by a beginner's expression of her feelings of awkwardness is going to be less or more likely to be able to be sensitive to that beginner and give her a good experience?

I know, for example, that if I feel intimidated when dancing with one of the dance goddesses, I am to some extent inhibited and don't dance as well as I can. But I'm not in the least inhibited with beginners that say they're crap

Anyway, maybe let's put this to bed now. Getting a bit bored with it all now, as I expect lots of people are.

Chris