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Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by Lounge Lizard
Have I missed something here
See you in the hollow tree.
Entry = one cucumber!
--ooOoo--
Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)
Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
That date is recognized as her official birthday.
Excellent post Peter. A lot of relevent points well put....
God help me for posting this but how *exactly* does the fact that you have got negative rep for posting prove you didn't do it for personal gain??! Honestly Iam not saying you DID but really the fact that several people disagree with you really does not prove that you didn't!This is for those who think i started this for personal gain.... Acopy of the negative feedback I have been receiving.... NOTE... none added thier name by the way..... It takes guts to put your name to your words i suppose....
£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 09:46 AM Not constructive, just critical.
£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 01:30 AM Nobody wants to be linked from your website. it would make them look bad! bad smell you see
£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 01:29 AM you are a prat! anything goes as long as you're right. Grow up
£150 ? Has commercial c... 22nd-July-2004 01:27 AM clutching at straws now
£150 ? Has commercial c... 21st-July-2004 09:59 PM This post is criticising Franck and is provocative. You create conflict on the forum and people don't like it. Go away and don't come back.
£150 ? Has commercial c... 21st-July-2004 09:43 AM Please stop doing this. Several people left last time you started this sort of arguement on the forum. You do far more damage than any commercial charge that Franck makes.
This is for those who might think starting this thread was an easy desicion to make.. it' wasn't and this is the reason why....
Well, I think the point Mikey is making is that he knew that being the person to start this thread, he would attract a bit of flack. Many people have posted - some have said they think the changes were good, some have suggested modifications to the changes, some have agreed with Mikey's points, some have taken the discussion into areas that he hadn't thought of.
At the end of the day we may well end up with new ideas for revenue streams for the forum (eg regional commercial memberships, or one-off posting fees) which is great; we may end up with more targetted advertising threads (which means that people who don't want to read ads can easily avoid them) which is great; we may end up with small organisations or charities being able to promote their events which is great; and we may end up with more regional news/ads for people who want to know what's on in their area - also great. I can't remember another thread with so many potentially positive outcomes for a long time.
But for daring to start the debate... Mikey has had a pile of sh*t on his head! Some of the comments he has quoted are not just "disagreement" - which is fair enough - but abusive and mean-spirited. "You Smell" is hardly adult debate. Anonymous messages of this kind just mark out their sender as an ill mannered coward.
There have been some postings suggesting that Mikey started the thread to raise his own commercial profile, rather than to debate the issues. I think what he's showing is that he suspected from the outset - and was right in suspecting - that this was not going to be something that would win him any popularity contests. He knew instead that raising his voice could actually damage his commercial profile. It's not really true that all publicity is good publicity, as some of those nasty messages prove. If people dislike you - they are not that likely to frequent your venues!
He started it because he felt it was right to raise the issues - and as stated above, starting the thread could have some very positive outcomes for us all. I think praise should also go to Franck, who has mediated the (often very heated) thread very fairly, and has shown his own fine character in his patient explanations and his stated willingness to listen to suggestions put forward. His commitment to the forum, and balancing the interests of its very diverse members is clear and uncontestable.
And one final thought - whether you agree with him or not - Mikey always puts his name to what he writes....
As do I DC, which is why I foolishly posted publically and risked raising the heat of an already over-personalised debate, rather than negative repping Mikey.
Honest debate is always a good thing! I'm waiting to see if I get bad rep for my posting... but like you I prefer to say what I think and put my name to it! Share my last rolo with you anytimeAs do I DC, which is why I foolishly posted publically and risked raising the heat of an already over-personalised debate, rather than negative repping Mikey.
I have made two postings basicly supporting Mikey (got both positive and negative rep for them)
As a teacher-organiser-DJ I could benefit from advertising, I have three DVD's to sell I play music at events throughout the country and would like to be more involved in workshops nationwide.
So I am very keen to advertise, it is just the current offer is not clear in a number of areas as it is still in its early days.
Advertising as a freelance on a Ceroc forum where Ceroc (pretty much) does not use freelance is uneasy ground.
When i check the forum I click on new posts, I skip anything with big brother hollow tree, smoking, or northen events (nothing personal guys), first posts I read will be music related etc. etc
I never read what else is on offer on the forum, I guess many others are simmilar
So I found out about the commercial option via Mikeys thread, Franck was given new ideas and food for thought cos of Mikeys postings and subsequent replies, I find Mikeys direct approach no more annoying than Pammy's fluffy ways (would be great to see them swap over - Pammy posts like Mikey, Mikey like Pammy).
Why critisise the guy for asking a direct question?
Even if Mikey did use the thread for his own personal agenda, no problems with me, we have all done that from time to time, if an interesting and open discussion resulted (as has been the case) then well done that man and have some rep
LL
The newspapers have been wrestling with these sorts of problems for hundreds of years, and they still have no consistent solution. The local drama group puts on a show - is that news that you pay a reporter to put in the paper? Or do you allow the organiser to put in a puffed up promo for free? Or do you charge them for advertising it?
Is the paper paid for by its readers, or by the advertisers? or a mixture?
We get seemingly ridiculous anomolies. The "Local" paper may charge for the local drama group to advertise its production of "Grease", but it pays money to the broadcasters for the privilege of carrying the TV programs that tell us "Grease" is on national TV.
I cannot define what is fair or commercially correct, and even if there was someone that could I doubt that the rest of us would recognise it. I have settled for the simplistic attitude - It is Francks forum - whatever rules he cares to impose are OK by me. Long live King Franck.
I think its unfortunate that you recieved all that negative rep. Although I vehemently disagree with your point of view I think its a legitimate point of view to raise .. and people should be able to express an opinion withour resorting to negative rep (a new version of flaming?This is for those who might think starting this thread was an easy desicion to make.. it' wasn't and this is the reason why....).
I think there have been some going points raise (esp by LL) and some very good responses (esp by Franck). I think, like a number of other debates what is right comes down to what you as an individual believe.
I say all the above from the perspective that I'm not always Mikey's greatest fan... and I think that you do your self an injustice sometimes .... but I dont think you deserve some of the abuse you've received for this thread. Full marks for raising the issue in the first point .. and the same to Franck for allowing the debate to run without censor.
I would dearly like to say some things about a venture I'm involved in for a number of reasons but am aware that any mention of it could consitiute 'advertising' ... which is a little sad ... but I do understand Francks position.
Last edited by Gus; 23rd-July-2004 at 01:06 AM.
An interesting debate, which doesn't belong in this thread at all...I think its unfortunate that you recieved all that negative rep. Although I vehemently disagree with your point of view I think its a legitimate point of view to raise .. and people should be able to express an opinion withour resorting to negative rep (a new version of flaming?
There have been many recent incidences of posters complaining about negative reputation publically, either because they feel hard-done by, misunderstood or simply in the hope (generally correct) that they will get sympathy positive reputation.
I took a look at the negative rep that Mikey posted and most of it, wasn't for raising the issue of commercial membership but for either having a go at individuals (sometimes in self-defence), promoting his website via this thread or for other attacks on Ceroc etc... Not for making the original point, and this is crucial.
To get back on topic, I have seen many useful contributions to this thread, and I have already admitted that the 'Commercial membership' hadn't been implemented properly. There are many gaps in concept (as Mikey, Sheepman and Gus have pointed out) and this is why I hadn't promoted it much.
Amongst the few people who have had posts deleted, a couple have emailed me to offer support (despite losing the facility to advertise). A couple have repeatedly hi-jacked threads and used friends to 'help' advertise their events, which saddened me
Mikey started this thread, and while it was earlier than I had planned, I was glad to get the opportunity to discuss the issues at stake, and only one organization so far have offered to take up Commercial membership (Jive Addiction)...
From where I'm sitting, the outcome is not hugely positive, and certainly doesn't solve the initial issue: how to raise funds from those who benefit the most from the Forum?
My conclusions so far, having read all the above several times, are:
1 - Currently, the Forum doesn't have a large enough membership to justify £150.00 for local advertising, but it does for national events.
2 - Policing and moderating adverts is very difficult (and prone to mis-judgements) as well as time consuming. The ideal solution would be for all (most) dance events / classes organisers to subscribe to the Commercial membership. This will only happen if the cost is significantly reduced from the current £150.00 for local / small independents.
3 - The Forum is a public service / resource and it would be a shame if dancers with no ties / financial interest in the events they mention couldn't post questions about events. This will lead to potential abuse, but in my opinion is still worth allowing, relying on the integrity of all promoters.
These are my current thoughts and I would be happy to receive more feedback on how to develop the system.
Franck.
There's an A.P.P. for that!
Or, to add to your list, because they can't see the point of neg rep with no comments as it fails to add to the discussion. (Much better to debate on the thread itself). I certainly didn't post in order to get sympathy.Although I did feel the teensiest bit hard-done by!
And, if I remember rightly, you hadn't got neg rep at allAlthough I did feel the teensiest bit hard-done by!
"If you rebel against high heels, take care to do so in a very smart hat.'' George Bernard Shaw
Yup!Oooops! Some days I'm not all that bright.....
Hi Franck, when I advertise in a local paper I dont want my advert to be lost in the main body of the paper, but located in a 'what's on' page.My conclusions so far, having read all the above several times, are:
1 - Currently, the Forum doesn't have a large enough membership to justify £150.00 for local advertising, but it does for national events.
2 - Policing and moderating adverts is very difficult (and prone to mis-judgements) as well as time consuming. The ideal solution would be for all (most) dance events / classes organisers to subscribe to the Commercial membership. This will only happen if the cost is significantly reduced from the current £150.00 for local / small independents.
3 - The Forum is a public service / resource and it would be a shame if dancers with no ties / financial interest in the events they mention couldn't post questions about events. This will lead to potential abuse, but in my opinion is still worth allowing, relying on the integrity of all promoters.
These are my current thoughts and I would be happy to receive more feedback on how to develop the system.
I refered to this in my previous posting.
Could you make a seperate "What's On" catagory, Threads can only be started by paid up members but all can contribute to postings
As a moderator you would include any key event (whether paid for or not) to keep public interest high.
To make it work the relevant threads in social events would need to be moderated
I would like to advertise my DVD's and availability for workshops 24/7 and any event I am DJ'ing at plus my own dances/classes on a regular week by week basis.
If this was the case I would pay the £150 now, but my main stumbling block (where does that phrase come from?) is any advertising being lost amongst the other postings - Even a special thread amongst Social events would be lost if other postings pushed it down the Line.
To clarify is it possible to add another heading (like DJ booth) titled "What's on" that is a permanent feature for commercioal advertisers to use?
I realise this has potential issues - if Jive addiction pay £150, and I then promote other weekenders (who do not subscribe to the £150 membership) cos I am appraring there that is unfair and wrong,
Also it would be wrong to prevent discussion on a major event cos the organiser is not a member
Peter
Learn from the newspapers, a Classified ads section?
with the ability to set "display until" dates? and a search unread facility?
I think that it's a shame that this thread has deteriorated into a public slagging match. Mikeys original posting was a valid posting asking a pertinant question. The forum has gone through a number of changes recently, and whenever you come accross change, there are usually teething problems, as there have been with the Forum. However the teething problems have mostly been sorted out over a period of time , using comments, feedback, and suggestions made by Forum members. I think that Mikeys original post was reasonable and well put, and has encouraged some people to come up with good suggestions as to how we can best sort out the commercial membership scheme fairly. Franck to his eternal credit, has allowed everyone to comment, and has taken everything on board and will almost certainly come up with a solution after looking at all of the suggestions that have been made. With regard to people hijacking posts to advertise their events, I will admit to being a guilty party on a couple of occasions. It has mostly been done tongue in cheek, but I understand where Franck is coming from, and I won't do it again. Please accept my humble apology fFranck
I don't consider Mikeys original post to be inflamatory, however soon after his original posting, the thread turned into a personal attack with all sorts of accusations being thrown around. Had it kept to discussing the points raised, we hopefully could have had a reasonable debate.
I don't always agree with Mikeys point of view, or his method of expressing it, however on this occasion the unpleasantness was not started by him. Hopefully this thread can return to debating the matters in a controlled fashion, and any personal attacks can be posted in the outside section...where they belong.
Been looking at this thread with interest. A lot of advertising is word of mouth (we are organising a workshop here in Belfast and almost every booking has come that way). The forum is a place where people chat and so events will be spread by 'word of mouth' which here equals posts (Southport is an example - someone - with no direct involvement with JiveAddiction at all - suggested to me in a thread about weekenders that it would be an easy location to travel to from NI and I passed the word on here in Belfast...) But that makes the 'advertising/word of mouth' a harder line to draw - sometimes it is an 'advertisement' by someone who only uses the forum to advertise and doesn't join in any other discussions - and sometimes it is a regular forum member saying 'hey guys, this is where I am teaching/DJing next month, should be a good night, come along'. The former should clearly pay to advertise, and the latter should maybe pay something, but I'm not convinced both should be treated the same.
I'm glad there has been debate on this subject as this is our forum, and its great that there can be this open discussion. Franck has costs and needs to work out a fair way for all, as I am sure he will!
Thanks DD I appreciate your apology, and I do realise that you were doing it in a 'tongue in cheek' way which is why I didn't remove any of the posts.With regard to people hijacking posts to advertise their events, I will admit to being a guilty party on a couple of occasions. It has mostly been done tongue in cheek, but I understand where Franck is coming from, and I won't do it again. Please accept my humble apology fFranck
I think that once the system is improved and worked out, the moderation will have to be stricter.
As Lynn says, the most effective means of advertising is word of mouth, but sometimes for word of mouth to start, you need the event to be advertised in the first place!
This Forum is the ultimate word of mouth loudspeaker... Which is why I think that every commercial organisation which benefits from the Forum should apply for Commercial membership, but there is no way for me to enforce it in practise, and as long as there are enough Hipsters supporters (for example) who out of loyalty or a sense of positive re-inforcement (ie I chose Hipsters therefore Hipsters is the best) then Hipsters will get lots of free publicity, and unless organizers decide to buy commercial membership (and why should they? they get everything for free) then there is nothing I can do about it...
Franck.
There's an A.P.P. for that!
Do we have any figures on this ? what % on here are north of watford
What % are scotish on the ceroc Scotand forum,probably dealt with on another thread ?
I wouldnt have gone to Southport had it not been for this forum
And wont be going to Barcelona as a result of this forum (I understand nos way down)
So it must have a commercial impact
stewart
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