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Thread: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

  1. #21

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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    I think perhaps if the "social events" was split into different regions, and promoters payed the regular 'silver' membership, but had to pay a surcharge per thread (/event) regarding their event it would seem better value.
    Perhaps an option to either pay X(£10?) per "advert" or pay the yearly membership and get as many as you want. This way, people arranging one-off events could also consider it. Large events would want a post in each area, therefore ching Small events would only want local regional advertising, therefore pay less.
    Anyone visiting a region could look it up and see who/what's on in that area.

    I would also say that the "advertising" charge also allowed for the event to be placed in the calendar so it comes up on the front page.

    Summary: I don't see a problem with charging for advertising - I just think that the model needs a bit of work.

    This is a excellent idea - although I can imagine it might be an awful lot of work for Franck to set up and run. Maybe it could be an idea for the future??

    Rome wasn't built in a day!

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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    If he can set-up a big brother house, he can do anything!!!

  3. #23
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadget
    Summary: I don't see a problem with charging for advertising - I just think that the model needs a bit of work.
    I agree with that, and I am still thinking the concept around.
    I really appreciate the suggestions you make, and I had been considering a monthly commercial membership (which would allow a more modest outlay) but as far as I could tell, that would actually benefit the 'larger' one-off events rather than the small independent classes...

    Keep the ideas coming, I am open to constructive suggestions and would love to find a solution that worked for everyone and didn't involve so much moderating...
    Franck.

    There's an A.P.P. for that!

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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Pammy
    I think our Franck does a marvellous job at running this forum . The amount of time and money he has invested into the jive world, and more importantly, our pleasure is more than just commendable.

    From my dealings with Franck, he is a selfless, committed friend to all of us on this forum who has dug deep into his own pocket over the years to ensure we can all enjoy this buzzing little community that has evolved, which we all thoroughly enjoy being a part of.

    The growing rates that such forums cost to provide has resulted in a need for Franck to re-coup some of the monthly outgoings - judging by the number of fully paid members and given that our yearly subscriptions to the forum hardly seems to make a dent in the £200 a month Francks now having to pay out, I don't see why those who are making money from jive events should object to putting their hands in their pockets and paying something towards these costs. It's hardly unfair. What is unfair is when our poor old Franck is made to look like he's somehow imorrally gaining from our yearly subscriptions. Somehow I can't see our Franck living it up, night after night on the takings he's getting from his forum members....

    Keep up the good work Franck!!!
    Yeah. What she said!

    Personally I do not feel that the introduction of the commercial membership has had any detrimental affect on the forum. In fact if anything, I think it's made it better because posts which are 'pure advertising' add nothing to the community. I certainly don't miss them.

    I know that Franck has invested a great deal of his own money into the forum, and that the (entirely optional) individual and commercial membership fees don't even come close to covering that expense. I know the vast majority of forum members are with me in giving Franck our thanks for providing us with a community that has considerably enriched our dancing lives.

  5. #25
    Registered User DangerousCurves's Avatar
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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Pammy
    There has to be a rule somewhere on what is/isn't allowed. Franck has decided as best he could and should be supported in his decision.

    He's not trying to stop people making money, just trying to spread some (and by some, it's hardly even breaking the surface) of the costs, which seems pretty fair to me.
    I don't think you can recommend something more highly than to volunteer the information that you would happily pay more for it!

    Its really not a question of "supporting" or "not supporting" Franck. Of course we all think he does an extraordinary and wonderful job, and we want him to continue making good decisions based on our feedback and his own good judgement ...this is simply a discussion...

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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    I suspect that the members of this forum, as a whole, would be in the "market leader" category, and few could be classed as beginners. Even if you get only one or two there they would lift most nights. One example, I, and many others, stopped dancing to watch Marc in action last Friday.

    I heard this forum, Southport, and the quality of the Scottish dancers all mentioned at Bedford last night. I think that this forum has done far more that any of us can imagine for the MJ scene in general, and for Ceroc, and especially Ceroc Scotland. I have personally recommended two Bedford beginners going to work in Glasgow to the Ceroc scene there.

    How much value has Hipsters got out of this forum, directly and indirectly? My guess would be at least £4,000. I would not be surprised if it were double that or more. A reads about it, tells B,C, D & E. One of them goes, tells ...

    My guess is that Mikey has done exceedingly well out of it too, more than he realises.
    Last edited by bigdjiver; 20th-July-2004 at 05:37 PM.

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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Dance Demon
    and at that it is only a monthly freestyle, which does not earn large sums of money, consequently, i have not taken out a commercial membership either. however i understand where Franck is coming from re the cost to him personally, to provide us with this excellent forum, and accept the situation as it stands.
    I agree with DD. I think that taking out the commercial membership is a commercial decision. It doesn't make commercial sense to advertise nationally for a local event unless the return justifies the investment. This might be the case for something that attracts people from miles around. But, like DD, I run a small local event and can't think of any benefit I'd get from advertising it on here: so I haven't taken out a commercial subscription.

    If I do something that would attract people from far and wide I'll gladly pay the £150 as I think it's a good value way to communicate with hundreds of dancers.

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    Lightbulb Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    I agree with DD. I think that taking out the commercial membership is a commercial decision. It doesn't make commercial sense to advertise nationally for a local event unless the return justifies the investment. This might be the case for something that attracts people from miles around. But, like DD, I run a small local event and can't think of any benefit I'd get from advertising it on here: so I haven't taken out a commercial subscription.

    If I do something that would attract people from far and wide I'll gladly pay the £150 as I think it's a good value way to communicate with hundreds of dancers.

    I can hardly believe i am agreeing But yes, Andy I entirely agree and it's the point I was trying make...

  9. #29
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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Franck
    Keep the ideas coming, I am open to constructive suggestions and would love to find a solution that worked for everyone and didn't involve so much moderating...
    I like to see adverts: I like to feel that I am special and all these people are clambering for my business. But I only want to see them when I am actually looking for something they are selling.

    I still think that splitting the "Events" section into (eg)...
    Scotland
    North England
    Central England
    South England
    London
    Antipodeans
    Rest of the World
    (Note that Scotland comes first )
    ... is a good idea, no matter what follows on from that.

    As with "reported" or "outside" posts that moderators highlight, you could have a "Advert" class that moderators could put stuff into until approved (/paid for)

    How to highlight ads...? Prefix the title with Ad: like "Poll:"? Have a "special member" who actually posts the ad (moderators can log in as them to add/edit/change/credit posts) Advertisers would PM the member with the advert and they would post it.
    Don't know how payment or checking that a user had paid would work... Poss 'credit' the account from a PP payment of that person on a field that moderators could see on the user info screen?

    Tag line of the "Advertiser" would be something like "PM adverts to me: only £10 per ad, pay through the button on your user control panel"

    A bit of work to set-up, but once done, moderators could administer the ads instead of just the administrator.


    {I know soneone who's boss was an imagineer... I just love that title: wish I was one }

  10. #30
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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey
    I can hardly believe i am agreeing But yes, Andy I entirely agree and it's the point I was trying make...
    :even more confused:

  11. #31
    Registered User spindr's Avatar
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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Well, from my perspective I've probably been to a venue 2/3 times since finding it mentioned here -- and brought along a friend -- so I guess that's 3/4 entry fees extra they've got from it being mentioned here.

    To be honest from my naive punter viewpoint, I'd equate the commercial benefit as at least that of leaving a pile of leaflets at a competition, or similar venue -- although of course there are no printing costs, no travelling/postage costs to deliver them -- and its open 365/24/7. And it's a lot easier to fix typos and date mistakes

    SpinDr.

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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    However, I think this subject does need to be discussed as some people weren't on the Forum the last time there was a thread about it. IMHO this is Franck's forum: he is responsive to feedback: he is obviously intelligent and he's giving his time and money to this forum.

    If there was a way for Franck to get a bit more money by offering a regional commercial membership then I'm all for it. Maybe there could be a Social Events section divided into a National Events section followed by a number of regional divisions. People could pay the £150 to post in the national section and pay a lesser sum to post in each regional section.

  13. #33
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    For what is worth thought I'd stick my two-penneth in.

    To answer Mikey's question, "has commercial cost spoilt the forum" I would have to say NO. Personally I was starting to get a little sick of af ew forum members using the Forum purely as an advertising medium for their own events. I alwys fekt that the forum was an area for discussion and debate. Those that solely used it for promotion may well have killed the golden goose.

    As mentioned previously in a post ... advertising costs! Why should anyone expect a freebie. If you think it is worth the cost then you pay ... if you don't, you don't pay. At the moment I dont think that I could make a return on #150 through this advertising medium ... though there may well come a point in the future when it is.

    The old argument about "free speech" is fine ... when someone has made all the effort and incurred the cost to create a platform to make advertising so easy. If I remember correctly, that was the view that the Southport orgnaisers use as their justification for flyering car parks of other Jive Organisations. Given Mikey's close ties with Jive Addiction I would have thought the easiest way to promote his activities would be to use their mailing list ... I'm sure they wouldnt charge him for it ... and he could then be far more selective in targeting who gets his ads. As for me .... I'm going to follow the example laid out by Jive Addiction and will be flyering all the cars at the next few Southport Events ... lot cheaper than paying #150 ( ) ... only joking of course

  14. #34

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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    For what is worth thought I'd stick my two-penneth in.

    To answer Mikey's question, "has commercial cost spoilt the forum" I would have to say NO.
    Personal opinion, duely noted and glad to have your views too...


    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    The old argument about "free speech" is fine ... when someone has made all the effort and incurred the cost to create a platform to make advertising so easy. If I remember correctly, that was the view that the Southport orgnaisers use as their justification for flyering car parks of other Jive Organisations..
    Just in case there is any confusion here, in 14 years of teaching etc i have never flyered a car park for any reason what so ever.. and think it a poor way to promote.. even in retaliation..

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    Given Mikey's close ties with Jive Addiction I would have thought the easiest way to promote his activities would be to use their mailing list ... I'm sure they wouldnt charge him for it ... and he could then be far more selective in targeting who gets his ads. :
    They have actually set up a recprical link from thier website to my website, just the same as others have done .. and we are discussing some joint promotions for this coming Septembers event in Southport. However, i find targeting my local dancers the most effective use of my advertising budget and have taken out adverts in several local papers and online local event guides too..

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    As for me .... I'm going to follow the example laid out by Jive Addiction and will be flyering all the cars at the next few Southport Events ... lot cheaper than paying #150 ( ) ... only joking of course
    You would save yourself a lot of shoe leather if you just put them on the table like everyone else did last time at the Southport event. If you want your flyers out at thier very successful event in Southport, then simply ask to do an exchange of flyers and they will oblige i am sure.. but i suspect you might rather loose a limb first.. pride over business.. many have done it, including myself in the past years...

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    Arrow Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy McGregor
    However, I think this subject does need to be discussed as some people weren't on the Forum the last time there was a thread about it. IMHO this is Franck's forum: he is responsive to feedback: he is obviously intelligent and he's giving his time and money to this forum.

    If there was a way for Franck to get a bit more money by offering a regional commercial membership then I'm all for it. Maybe there could be a Social Events section divided into a National Events section followed by a number of regional divisions. People could pay the £150 to post in the national section and pay a lesser sum to post in each regional section.
    your killing me here... I have to agree again Andy...

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    Unhappy Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianas
    Okay from a punters point of view I don't want to read threads like this....
    It's a choice you make personally hun.. no one forces it in your face, but plenty of people are enjoying debating a serious issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianas
    It feels like someones walked into someone else's house ignored the house rules and thrown a few plates about to make a scene.....
    No one has been abusive on the thread or personal, apart from one slip by your favourite friend andy in his footnotes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianas
    Okay a scene has been made, and you have had some attention, Mikey, but have you raised these things with Frank earlier on a one to one basis? .....
    Actually yes i have had a private chat between myself and franck and he is quite happy the point has been raised, and some very good ideas and suggestions are coming forward which otherwise might never have been voiced..
    QUOTE]

    Cleary you are someone who has a personal problem with me for whatever reason, fine , not everyone is likeable in this world, if we were how boring would that be eh... But should the Forum improve as a result of this debate, then all members will benefit, which is the whole point of this thread. Stiffling debate kills the opportunity for honest feedback and ultimate improvement..

    bye

  17. #37
    Registered User DianaS's Avatar
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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Originally Posted by Dianas
    It feels like someones walked into someone else's house ignored the house rules and thrown a few plates about to make a scene.....

    Originally Posted by Mikey
    No one has been abusive on the thread or personal, apart from one slip by your favourite friend andy in his footnotes...

    I think your mis-understanding me, my perceptions are that your origional advertising message was removed and rather than open the issue with Frank on a one to one basis then open the area up for discussion you walked into his "house" to publically challenge him. If you thought that what you were doing was okay, surely you wouldn't have anticipated that the new thread would be removed?


    Originally Posted by Dianas
    Okay a scene has been made, and you have had some attention, Mikey, but have you raised these things with Frank earlier on a one to one basis? .....

    Originally Posted by Mikey
    Actually yes i have had a private chat between myself and franck and he is quite happy the point has been raised, and some very good ideas and suggestions are coming forward which otherwise might never have been voiced..

    Well would it have been better to raise it with Franck before you made the origional or second new thread postings? I private messaged him before I opened a thread on Beach Boogie out of courtesy and surely behaving with courtesy in someone else's home is the least we should expect?

    Originally Posted by Mikey
    Cleary you are someone who has a personal problem with me for whatever reason, fine , not everyone is likeable in this world, if we were how boring would that be eh... But should the Forum improve as a result of this debate, then all members will benefit, which is the whole point of this thread. Stiffling debate kills the opportunity for honest feedback and ultimate improvement..

    Hmmm Mikey, there's debate, and there pressure group politics, and I wonder whether you were using the forum as a means to exert pressure on our host rather than to stimulate debate. That's where I take issue with you, its concerning the use and misuse of private and public space, for me it's a professional issue rather than personal one, learning and communication technology is my trade, and I actively debate its use and development.

  18. #38

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    Question Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianas
    If you thought that what you were doing was okay, surely you wouldn't have anticipated that the new thread would be removed?.
    Errr... joke??... the remark was meant lightly, not literally.. hence the smiley..

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianas
    ... surely behaving with courtesy in someone else's home is the least we should expect?.
    Sorry, maybe it's me, but I was sure this was a forum for debate.. enough said.. I have made it clear in repeated postings that no criticism of Franck was implied, I am merely asking for debate on a change made to the forum, not anyone's personal morality etc. All debate has been polite and considered. Good suggestions are being made - which could benefit all - Franck included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianas
    ... Hmmm Mikey, there's debate, and there pressure group politics, and I wonder whether you were using the forum as a means to exert pressure on our host rather than to stimulate debate..
    Group ? what pressure group... most who have posted have publically disagreed - though some have also made excellent suggestions to make things even better, but I have had messages both privately and via e mail supporting the views I expressed from people who do not want to make a public statement and take the heat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianas
    ... That's where I take issue with you, its concerning the use and misuse of private and public space, for me it's a professional issue rather than personal one, learning and communication technology is my trade, and I actively debate its use and development.

    The function of a forum is to permit people to express views, even ones which not everyone will agree with...it would be a waste of this public space if only voices in agreement were heard...

    As for your claim your posting is a professional view and not a personal one.. might Iremind you your first posting on this thread was far from impersonal...

    To refresh your distant memory...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianas
    ..."Never mind Andy, I don't read him either, mainly 'cas I don''t like some aspects of what he teachers, to me it isn't dance, and if I wanted people acting like that with me I wouldn't be so sad to pay for it!".
    I may not enjoy reading your personal view of myself considering you have never met me I suspect, nor spent time in my company, you have seen me teach and judged the book by it's cover at best - but I uphold your right to express yourself in this public space (without needing to send me a private message to clear it first )

    However, I would like to see this thread get back on topic...

  19. #39
    Registered User Chickadee's Avatar
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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey
    I can hardly believe i am agreeing But yes, Andy I entirely agree and it's the point I was trying make...
    I am in complete shock!

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    Re: £150 ? Has commercial cost spoilt the Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Pammy
    I think our Franck does a marvellous job at running this forum . The amount of time and money he has invested into the jive world, and more importantly, our pleasure is more than just commendable.

    From my dealings with Franck, he is a selfless, committed friend to all of us on this forum who has dug deep into his own pocket over the years to ensure we can all enjoy this buzzing little community that has evolved, which we all thoroughly enjoy being a part of.

    The growing rates that such forums cost to provide has resulted in a need for Franck to re-coup some of the monthly outgoings - judging by the number of fully paid members and given that our yearly subscriptions to the forum hardly seems to make a dent in the £200 a month Francks now having to pay out, I don't see why those who are making money from jive events should object to putting their hands in their pockets and paying something towards these costs. It's hardly unfair. What is unfair is when our poor old Franck is made to look like he's somehow imorrally gaining from our yearly subscriptions. Somehow I can't see our Franck living it up, night after night on the takings he's getting from his forum members....

    Keep up the good work Franck!!!

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