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Thread: X Rated Teachers

  1. #1
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Angry X Rated Teachers

    Contentious Subject No. 34a

    One of my common bugbears about 'cowboy' instructors has been their predeliction with drops and seducers ... there are several in my area which have caused me (and other dancers) no end of problems in letting badly trained dancers off onto dancefloors doing moves they are patently not capable of doing safely.

    Ceroc Teacher Association (CTA) trains Ceroc teachers only to do the minimal amount of drops on stage (orange moves) ... ALWAYS to be taught with an alternative and NEVER to teach red moves (e.g. Ballroom drop, Nelson seducers, lifts).

    Imagine my surprise when over the last few months I've seen and heard of sevral occaisions of such moves being taught from stage.

    OK .. don't claim to be a master expert in drops but I've done enough training and taught enough to know that you CANNOT teach such drops safely in the usual Ceroc format ... they should always be taught in a workshop environment. Even the main independant oirgainstaions agree on that.

    So ... whats going on .... is it some teachers just having a rush of ego or has there been a change of policy. Could be a bit contentious as (alledgely) there was a case brought against a Ceroc teacher that was only dropped because of the cost of financing the case. Given all the news about injuries been caused, this is any area that really needs to be watched.

    Also ... from a risk management standpoint, if a teacher teaches a non-Ceroc move and is then sued, does the Ceroc Public Liability Insurance still cover this incident?

    Oh ... and before the non-Ceroc instructors start any holier than thou responses .... from what I've seen, Ceroc are the least worst of the competitors I've seen.

    Comments please

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    So - what are you suggesting, Gus? All drops, leans, lifts, seducers, etc. should only be taught in workshops/specialist classes? If you are - I think I'm on your side.

    Personally, I loathe it when one of those moves is included in a regular class. I find it hard to put my trust in a stranger.

    To give him his due, Mandy & Sherif do arrange specific drops classes, where you stay with the same partner. That works well. Also, if, on the occasion they include one of these moves in the regular class format, they're careful to teach an alternative - normally a wiggle-type move - for those of us who are uncomfortable with it. I, for one, appreciate it - but not all Leroc teachers in this area are so obliging.

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    Omnipotent Moderatrix (LMC)
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    Hmmm..funny you should bring this up Gus..I was recently at a party night where a jump was taught, taught very quickly and with no alternative...

    This probably wouldn't have bothered me to be honest, only I got dropped (or did I fall off? It all happened rather quickly..) which bruised my knees as well as my pride and left me feeling very chary about the whole concept of jumps and drops. Like - never again with someone I don't know

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    B.T.C.
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    Re: X Rated Teachers

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Gus
    [B]Contentious Subject No. 34a

    One of my common bugbears about 'cowboy' instructors has been their predeliction with drops and seducers ... there are several in my area which have caused me (and other dancers) no end of problems in letting badly trained dancers off onto dancefloors doing moves they are patently not capable of doing safely.



    For goodness sake man.........................I can't keep up with reading your threads let alone reply to them..........

    But again you are right .......I'm really going to have to have a go soon:p


    I do few drops though I do like seducers mainly becuase I'm too aware of how dangerous they can be and I'd like to get my partner off the floor in one piece and without blood pouring from her !

    The number of times I've seen close shaves with feet and heads in close proximity and very often the man dropping the woman being totally oblivious to it ! But some women love drops and if it's safe, plenty of room and you know your partner then yep.....go for it and have fun but I know up here Lorna and Franck and the others teach these moves very safely, go through all the blurb about doing it safely and demonstrate an alternative.
    They are also very good at reminding couples to discuss whether they want to do the move with their new partner as they move on.

    The few drops I do do, I do with a few women I trust and who trust me but there are some women who almost throw themselves into drops or seducers even if you didn't intend doing the move. :reallymad

    Nice to know we are safe up here......or rather that the moves are taught safely. The teachers can hardly be responsible for how some individuals then use or interpret the moves.

  5. #5
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Re: X Rated Teachers

    Originally posted by bill foreman
    [QUOTE The teachers can hardly be responsible for how some individuals then use or interpret the moves.
    Good point .. I was at a venue last night where there are posters advertising an advanced workshop with a photo of the instructors (Matt and Helen) doing a stylised ballroom drop.

    Cue some lad who grabs a woman, looks at the photo and with that being the sum total of training proceeds to haul the woman round the floor trying to do it. Bring someone elses association I didn't feel I could just step in and stop them, thats for the venue mangement to do, but I did grab the lass afterwards and explain that throwing your head back, taking one foot off the floor and trusting the guy in the first place were all major mistakes.

    Not sure how well the guy took it when someone later suggested he should do a workshop.

    Fear not Bill ... nearly fnished details for the workshop ... and it will incorpoprate a session on drops.

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    Omnipotent Moderator Tiggerbabe's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: X Rated Teachers

    Originally posted by Gus


    Fear not Bill ... nearly fnished details for the workshop ... and it will incorpoprate a session on drops.
    Well, I hope you've got a second date arranged for your next workshop coz if it's on the same day as the 10th anniv. party then I won't manage to go

  7. #7
    The Oracle
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    It is unfortunately too late to stop people doing drops. They are just too popular. They allow virtually complete beginners to show in front of their friends without spending the time in learning how to dance. There's nothing wrong with this, as long as they are safe. Defining what is safe is the problem.

    Some venues have policies on not doing any lifts, but drops are allowed. Most allow anything. Virtually every venue can be dangerous.

    From what I've seen there would be few drops or lifts teachers that could satisfy an insurance company that they are sufficiently qualified or experienced, and all of them would have problems convincing a judge or jury.

    Ceroc's grading of drops is a start, but do they have training courses specifically for lifts? Who gets consulted when devising training courses? If the training were not as thorough as say for Gymnastics/Sports Acrobatic coaches, then you can bet a lawyer will point this out.

    Do you get taught injury prevention? Do you have qualified first-aiders on hand? Do you get taught how to spot?

    I just hope dancers can get together with some other recognised body to say what is safe, rather than waiting for the lawyers. With the 'no win no fee' system, people are not going to be put off by the cost anymore. And then no-one will be able to afford to teach drops.

    David

  8. #8
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    Ceroc's grading of drops is a start, but do they have training courses specifically for lifts? Who gets consulted when devising training courses? If the training were not as thorough as say for Gymnastics/Sports Acrobatic coaches, then you can bet a lawyer will point this out.

    Do you get taught injury prevention? Do you have qualified first-aiders on hand? Do you get taught how to spot?

    David
    Dave, CTA teachers are taught lifts ... but for private use only ... and I've got to say if I hadn't been trained in aerials by Andy and Rena I still wouldn't be able to do them correctly. CTA has it strengths ... teaching lifts is not one of them ... thats why I don't think there is any lift that a Ceroc teacher can teach from stage.

    The only people I would ever recommend for lifts is Andy and Rena ... but even they point out just how dangerous it is. It would be great to get some 'profesional training' from a gym/acro coach ... but where would you go and would they be able to teach moves that fitted in to Modern Jive?

    The reality is that while there are no real 'experts' in this field ... just self taught independants, what chace does the average punter have of getting safe training. How many of the cowboys teaching around the UK even have proper indemnity insurance?? That should be the first question you ask ANYONE running a workshop.

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    Registered User JMW's Avatar
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    Gus you dissapoint me.

    With a thread title like X-Rated Teachers I expected a plug for the latest Ceroc Calendar (tastefully done of course - although personally I'd be selective of which instructors you'd allow on there); a plea for a whip round for your local rival - so she can buy the other half of her dress; or a discussion on how to teach sleazy moves to the masses.

    Seriously drops, seducers etc can be fun (given the right partner/music/space etc.). If those irresponsible experienced dancers do do those moves at your classes (albeit properly, safely and with courtesy to other dancers, after having had all the appropriate training at your specialist workshops), you can bet your bottom dollar the newer dancers are going to want to do them too. Human nature. Having seen the new Audi RS6 I want one. Potential danger to other road users in me having such a car would not be much of a consideration if I could afford one (after all I know what I'm doing). Same sort of mental attitude as newish dancers with drops etc. He can do it - it doesn't look difficult - it looks great - let's give it a go.

    JW.
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  10. #10
    Registered User David Franklin's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gus


    Dave, CTA teachers are taught lifts ... but for private use only ... and I've got to say if I hadn't been trained in aerials by Andy and Rena I still wouldn't be able to do them correctly. CTA has it strengths ... teaching lifts is not one of them ... thats why I don't think there is any lift that a Ceroc teacher can teach from stage.
    The star jump used to get taught a few times a year in London. Not that many people did it any better than dreadfully. [Of course, in the old Central club where the far end had a low ceiling, this was probably a good thing!].

    Of course, the first move jump isn't particularly difficult - but whenever it gets taught, the freestyle that evening is, um..., interesting, as you try to avoid incoming fire!

    The only people I would ever recommend for lifts is Andy and Rena ... but even they point out just how dangerous it is.

    As David will undoubtably be too modest to say so, I'll just say that his and Lily's workshop at Camber was the best lifts class I've ever been to. Especially if you really mean lifts rather than airsteps.
    The reality is that while there are no real 'experts' in this field ... just self taught independants, what chace does the average punter have of getting safe training.

    Unfortunately, there's a real tendency for moves to be taught by "chinese whispers" as well. In other words, someone sees a move at a workshop, remembers (hopefully) 80% of what he was told, but starts teaching it anyway. Repeat for a few generations, and you either have a really good new move, or a lawsuit...

    On the perspective front - I know of many more people injured from spins than from dips, drops and aerials.

    Dave

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: X Rated Teachers

    Originally posted by Gus
    Contentious Subject No. 34a
    Well yes I see you've been busy again... It would be nice (for a change) to check the forum and find a normal thread, you know, with no big argument, just everyone sharing good clean fun stuff
    Somebody wake me I think I'm dreaming Anyway back to the topic at hand.
    Originally posted by Gus
    One of my common bugbears about 'cowboy' instructors has been their predeliction with drops and seducers ...
    First of all on a personal note, I don't like drops / air moves / lifts... I don't even like seducers that much!
    However, as JMW says, people will try and do them regardless, and usually without proper training / practise or warm up, and on a crowded dance floor
    As a result, my view is that if you can't stop them, train them!
    So, we teach a few basic drops or lifts regularly at classes. Nothing too fancy or dangerous, but it does give us (teachers) the opportunity to bring up all the safety aspects of doing those moves. In particular, warning the women that they do not have to follow the man's lead if he is doing a drop without warning / experience; or indeed for the women not to ever throw themselves into a drop (whether signalled or not )

    I believe that by teaching some drops etc, we are making the venues safer for everyone and indeed preventing many potential accidents.

    Franck.

    P.S. I agree with JMW, the title of this thread was misleading and ultimately disappointing

  12. #12
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    X Rated Teachers!!

    so when's the pole dancing workshops?



    hehehehehe
    Fox

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Re: X Rated Teachers

    Originally posted by Franck
    P.S. I agree with JMW, the title of this thread was misleading and ultimately disappointing
    Well, Franck - why not start the ball rolling & post a piccy of yourself? In the manner of the thread title, of course!

  14. #14
    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: X Rated Teachers

    Originally posted by Lou
    Well, Franck - why not start the ball rolling & post a piccy of yourself? In the manner of the thread title, of course!
    Well Hmmm :sorry would not want to put people off
    What I meant, :sorry was that the title should be different, rather than start a genuine x-rated thread!

    As for pole dancing, I suspect that the experience is fairly similar for women when dancing with men who don't move their feet much (if at all), standing there while the women dance around!
    Anyway we've had the Limbo dancing incident already (if you have not read this thread, do a search for the words "limbo" and "Filthycute"

    Franck.

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    Re: Re: X Rated Teachers

    Originally posted by Franck
    Anyway we've had the Limbo dancing incident already (if you have not read this thread, do a search for the words "limbo" and "Filthycute"

    Franck.
    Nice one Franck...and here was me thinking everyone had forgotten about this incident!!

    Talking of alternative dancing, half of Dundee once thought i was a lap-dancer Thanks to a woman in my work thinking line-dancing and lap-dancing were both the same thing and telling anyone and everyone she knew that i was a "keen lap-dancer"

    BTW...they haven't barred me from Hoagies....have they???

    filthycute x x

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    Registered User JMW's Avatar
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    they haven't barred me from Hoagies....have they???
    I seem to remember somebody telling me Hoagies had lost its licence.

    JMW
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    PS Not a joke.

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    Registered User Jon's Avatar
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    Only tonight did I have to avoid a couple performing a seducer where the ladys head was at the height of my knee. It ruined the move I was doing with my partner as I had to take emergency avoiding action, and this was on a crowded dance floor. People need more sense, prehaps a workshop on spacial awarness would be a good idea!:reallymad

    I personally don't like dips, jumps or seducers and never do them unless I know my partner really well. And as for the women who throw themselves in to one even though you haven't led it. Gggggrrrrrrr springs to mind, I'm leading at least I thought I was!. I've had a couple of near misses before and I know one day the lady is going to end up on the floor.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Suicide Blondes

    Originally posted by Jon
    And as for the women who throw themselves in to one even though you haven't led it......I've had a couple of near misses before and I know one day the lady is going to end up on the floor.
    In the darker reaches of my mind there's a voice that keeps telling me that the next time the lady decides to do a seducer on her own I'm going to let her .... it might teach her not to do it again. Unfortunately, so far, pure instinct makes me catch them. But one day.....

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    Omnipotent Moderatrix (LMC)
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    Re: Suicide Blondes

    Originally posted by Gus


    the next time the lady decides to do a seducer on her own I'm going to let her ....
    Oooh, bad man!!

  20. #20
    The Oracle
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    Re: Suicide Blondes

    Originally posted by Gus
    the next time the lady decides to do a seducer on her own I'm going to let her ....
    ... and nothing should happen. If the lady thinks you are doing a drop or seducer, and you are not used to dancing with each other, then she should still be trying to support her own weight.

    This is what you should get taught when doing drops. Or is it another thing that gets forgotten in the desire to get people to look flashy... Even worse, are drops being taught where there is no option but to put the lady's life into the man's hands.

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