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Thread: Patience of a Saint

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    Patience of a Saint

    Quick question to Ceroc teachers.....
    Where the hell do you get your patience from???

    After my class on Wednesday there were a couple of people i would quite happily stripped of their dancing shoes and told to go take up another hobby.

    Unkind, maybe, but one guy in particular just drove me nuts!! Half way through the intermediate class poor Denise got lumbered with this fella....much to my amusement of course That was short lived....guess who got him next time around......and it was into the freestyle dance OK to be fair the move was slightly confusing but JEEZ!, i've never seen anyone get in a state so badly. After 5 mins trying to do just 1 rendition of the moves he kinda went huffy and said "OK, we'll just freestyle"
    How on earth does he think he's going to learn anything if he doesn't let me lead???....erm...i mean practice
    Just to clarify, this guy has been coming for a while now. I'm not that harsh to grieve about someone who's just learning.

    Am i the only person with such impatience? Actually to be fair i am quite patient. Maybe i just get frustratedly impatient with people who don't seem to want to try.

    How do you all cope when your looking down from the stage to see someone just not grasping it when everyone else is? OK we're not talking normal "really trying hard" people. I mean the ones that are clearly mental and unaccepting of the fact that they will never be able to dance and should take up another hobby before they damage someone.
    Or how do you handle situations where someone is being dangerous and you have to stay calm and professional, when all you really want to do is have a right go at them?

    Rather you than me......hence the reason your all teachers and i'm not.

    Am i being harsh??........Most likely
    Tactful?.....not in the slighest, anyone who knows me will tell you it's not my finest quality.
    And just to clarify that i'm not in any way implying that i'm so great at picking up moves. Yeah i have trouble aswell.I'm just thankful for people for the patience they have with me. I've just no patience for people who obviously don't want to try.

    flthycute x x

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    I have the utmost respect for anyone who can teach, and especially teach beginners.

    Every intermediate class I see there are a large number of men who just don't seem to have a clue. But you see them again in the freestyle, and most are fairly reasonable dancers.

    The moves that seem to cause the most problems are:
    - when man has to move while being close to the lady (eg walking steps, or when he has to move during the lead)
    - when the man has to turn himself
    - when his arms are behind his back

    So the lazy dancers (like me) just don't do many moves like this in freestyle.

    Of course if you have problems when you are not moving or spinning, and your hands are in front of your body....you sound like me playing golf!

    David

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    A lot of people think they are better than they actually are. This is an established scientific fact - look at http://www.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html for more details.

    (If anyone wants to waste their afternoon, look at the Ig-Nobel website http://www.improb.com/ig/ig-top.html . These are the alternative Nobel prizes, that "honor people whose achievements cannot or should not be reproduced.")

    David

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    Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by filthycute
    Quick question to Ceroc teachers.....
    Where the hell do you get your patience from???
    The thing is that the teachers can do very little on stage to correct mistakes although they may feel like jumping down and slapping a few folk.

    Lorna does her best by deliberately taking her time on stepping back and returning soemtimes to try and get the men (and women) to keep in time. It's reasonable to expect that all of us will have problems with some moves but when it's because hey just aren't paying attention - often chatting and ignoring the move then I get upset myself.

    I also find it frustrating when the men try and rush through the moves during the class as though it's some kind of race and ignore the beat completely and wonder why the woman ( especially poor beginners) looked stunned - it's certainly not a look of delight or pleasure :reallymad

    Lorna is good at liitle 'frinedly' suggestions like .....'the other left hand......no, the other left hand' :p but it's actually amazing that the teachers can teach from the stage, lead the moves and watch what people are doing. That's quite a skill

    Maybe more women , and possibly men, should be more vocal and tell their partners when it's going wrong - or more importantly when it hurts.

    Anyway, be interesting to see what the teachers have to say.

    ps ...........you leading FC - surely not. Well you can lead me next time we dance....you be there tonight

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    Not a spoon! Lou's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by bill foreman
    Maybe more women , and possibly men, should be more vocal and tell their partners when it's going wrong
    Oooh! Bill! Dangerous ground!
    or more importantly when it hurts.
    That's a definite.

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    Re: Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by bill foreman
    The thing is that the teachers can do very little on stage to correct mistakes although they may feel like jumping down and slapping a few folk.
    oo-er! i was more on the lines of refunding their money, confiscating dance shoes and showing them the door.
    I'm sure the slapping theory would work quite well though....
    ...now just got to find someone to try it on.......
    but it's actually amazing that the teachers can teach from the stage, lead the moves and watch what people are doing. That's quite a skill
    Completely agree I'd probably go bonkers and end up with a more ....("OY! YOU!! yeah i'm talking to you!....rasie your right arm....don't you know your bloody left from your right!?!? JEEZ!!") approach. Ok maybe not that far
    Maybe more women , and possibly men, should be more vocal and tell their partners when it's going wrong - or more importantly when it hurts.
    Yes i think thats true, but it a fine line between being helpful and coming across as a patronising know it all. I admit to doing this but if it looks like it's going over their head or they have that "shut up woman! i'm trying to watch the teacher" look then i just give up and hope the class moves on fairly quick. I do like being on the recieving end of such info i must admit. Well if it's someone who's knows what they are talking about. I would hate to think i'm out there dancing and doing a move wrong or which is irritating for a man....(don't even mention the leading!!)
    Any info that improves my dancing is always appreciated..no matter how direct it's given.
    ps ...........you leading FC - surely not. Well you can lead me next time we dance....you be there tonight
    Me lead you??? Not a chance!! I wouldn't dream of it.
    You've got great moves and i'm sure they are all the better for not having me interfering with them
    I'll be there tonight and catch you for a dance

    See y'all this evening

    fitlhycute x x

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    Commercial Operator Heather's Avatar
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    I Know You!!!!

    Nudge, nudge!!!!!
    I KNOW who you are talking about Mel !!!!!!! :
    He must be bad if you can't manage to dance with him!!!!
    You manage to keep a smile on your face no matter how bad they are!!!!!!!!!

    Heather

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    Registered User Alfie's Avatar
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    Just a note to say thanks,
    To all ladies and teachers who had the patience with me in many classes and freestyles (coz I danced like a real donkey) untill it ''Clicked'' for me.
    I stillremember how hard I found the big step up to intermediates from beginners and I still feel for guys who I see struggleing with the moves week after week.
    So thank you again Ladies eveywhere.
    Alfie

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Alfie
    I still remember how hard I found the big step up to intermediates from beginners and I still feel for guys who I see struggleing with the moves week after week.
    I think the secret of infinite patience lies in the above To be a good teacher, you should be able to remember how hard everything is for a Beginner, and to be able to put yourself in their shoes to find a way to help them.
    I still cringe at the memory of my first couple of years dancing, and after that the Ceroc training course, where I felt I would never get the Armjive properly and forget about thinking of the next move, that was definitely advanced Of course, we all get there eventually (at least if we keep trying), and FC, there is hope, even for the man you were dancing with, in the last 10 years, I have seen many a bad start on the dance floor, but some of them are now amongst the best dancers at our nights!

    As Bill said, from the stage, we are sometimes tempted to jump down and physically move them in the right direction, but instead we have to make do with a (bad in my case) joke and hope they will pick up on it.

    I find I don't get annoyed at people who do not manage the move! However, the dancers who think they know everything already and rush ahead without listening to anything (and of course get it wrong ), well, that's another thread...

    Franck.

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    Re: Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by bill foreman
    The thing is that the teachers can do very little on stage to correct mistakes although they may feel like jumping down and slapping a few folk.

    Lorna does her best by deliberately taking her time on stepping back and returning soemtimes to try and get the men (and women) to keep in time. It's reasonable to expect that all of us will have problems with some moves but when it's because hey just aren't paying attention - often chatting and ignoring the move then I get upset myself.

    I also find it frustrating when the men try and rush through the moves during the class as though it's some kind of race and ignore the beat completely and wonder why the woman ( especially poor beginners) looked stunned - it's certainly not a look of delight or pleasure :reallymad

    Lorna is good at liitle 'frinedly' suggestions like .....'the other left hand......no, the other left hand' :p but it's actually amazing that the teachers can teach from the stage, lead the moves and watch what people are doing. That's quite a skill

    Maybe more women , and possibly men, should be more vocal and tell their partners when it's going wrong - or more importantly when it hurts.

    Anyway, be interesting to see what the teachers have to say.

    ps ...........you leading FC - surely not. Well you can lead me next time we dance....you be there tonight
    I have to say that I never get annoyed with those people in the class who are finding the moves a little tricky, if anything I get annoyed at myself as I can only assume that it is a reflection on my teaching. As the teacher I think that it is always important to be well prepared and part of this is knowing which part of a move the class will find tricky and making sure that you can teach this part especially well. If all else fails, I agree with Franck, a good joke will keep up spirits, (or bad in my case)

    What is annoying however, is those people in the class who insist on finishing the move before me, this is very confusing for both myself and for beginners. As the teacher I am constantly looking out to see how everyone is coping (especially in the beginner's class) If I see people on different parts of the moves at different times then it is a little difficult to assess
    I often ask myself whether these guys can dance in time?

    As for complete beginners, they want to be seen to be successfully getting through the moves, but if they are dancing next to someone who finished the move or routine in advance then some of them may feel a little confused, inadequate or even embarrased.



    I have to say I have never felt like jumping down and slapping anyone, well not for this reason anyway Only joking!!!!

    I have however jumped down to help someone but this was near the end of the class and the music was on and everyone else was going through the routine. I think it was the octopus and well you can guess the rest, another case of right under left

    I do believe that people, not just women, should be more vocal about other people's dancing, but of course this should be handled with great care. I suggest that you speak to the teacher about it if you feel that you would offend anyone:sorry

    Lotsa love Lornax-x

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    Re: Re: Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by lorna
    What is annoying however, is those people in the class who insist on finishing the move before me, this is very confusing for both myself and for beginners.
    Sometimes the teacher decides to pause in the middle of the move, and half the class don't realise until it is too late. It gets even more confusing for beginners when their partner is trying to do the move in reverse to get back to the same point as the teacher.

    Now when the teacher says 'lets do that one step at a time', or 'lets do just the first 4 counts of that move' and we go straight through to the end - then you can be annoyed!

    David

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by DavidB
    Sometimes the teacher decides to pause in the middle of the move, and half the class don't realise until it is too late. It gets even more confusing for beginners when their partner is trying to do the move in reverse to get back to the same point as the teacher.
    We can usually tell the difference from the stage, I don't think Lorna was talking about a few people over-shooting, but about a few dancers determined to whizz through the move quickly. Maybe they think it will be impressive to their partners etc... They also do the same when practising to music, completely ignoring the beat and usually prompting me to remind them that Ceroc is not a race and there are no prizes for finishing first!!!

    Franck.

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by Franck
    We can usually tell the difference from the stage, I don't think Lorna was talking about a few people over-shooting, but about a few dancers determined to whizz through the move quickly. Maybe they think it will be impressive to their partners etc... They also do the same when practising to music, completely ignoring the beat and usually prompting me to remind them that Ceroc is not a race and there are no prizes for finishing first!!!
    Please allow me to clarify,

    I wasn't talking about the few people who 'overshoot' but as Franck explained the odd dancer who seems determined to impress their partner, and the problem arises when these partners are complete beginners and are often put off.

    Sorry I'm not very good at trying to explain exactly what I mean, this is the second time that I've got into trouble.




    lotsa love lornax-x

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    Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by lorna
    Please allow me to clarify,

    I wasn't talking about the few people who 'overshoot' but as Franck explained the odd dancer who seems determined to impress their partner, and the problem arises when these partners are complete beginners and are often put off.
    good point ... and very common ... all too common. I think Lorna suggested sometimes its down to lack of 'beat comprehension ' ... though at times I'm sure that applies to at least 25% of male dancers...

    again, to agree with a previous item, I think the biggest bane is the know-it-all dancers. I was demo-ing for a friend a few months back and I was amazed to see quite a few dancers totally ignoring her as she explained the intracacies of a complex move and eneded up doing a totaly different move ... what chance did their partners stand? Now thats when I really feel like jumping down and giving them a slap (well actualy educating them with the business end of a steel sheathed baseball bat is what I really want to do but there's never one around when you need one ...... probably just as well that I'm no longer allowed to grace the hallowed ground of a Ceroc teaching stage )

    Slightly off thread point, specificaly for teachers to answer, when you're at someone else's venue (especialy another jive organssation) and you see some muppet doing a move badly wrong close by in the row, do you correct them or do you feel that is a breach of ettiquette?

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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by lorna
    Sorry I'm not very good at trying to explain exactly what I mean, this is the second time that I've got into trouble.
    No - you explained it very well. I just didn't read it very well. I didn't realise there were so many speed demons around, and just assumed you were talking about everyone who overshoots.
    Originally posted by Gus
    ... its down to lack of 'beat comprehension ' ... though at times I'm sure that applies to at least 25% of male dancers...
    There are two different problems - those people who just completely ignore the music, and those who dance off beat. Understanding the beat is not easy. If you have never danced before, or never played a musical instrument, it can be difficult. There is at least one very experienced Ceroc teacher who has never been able to count music. However I've never seen any jive or swing teacher explain how to dance in time to the music. (I'm not talking about any advanced musical interpretation - just dancing to the beat.) I wouldn't even know how to teach it. But if it is obvious some people are having problems, maybe someone needs to have a go???

    And it's not just men that can't keep time. There are quite a few women that completely ignore the beat when they dance (or maybe I'm one of the 25% of men, and the lady is doing it right?)

    David

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    Ceroc Teacher Lorna's Avatar
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    Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by DavidB
    No - you explained it very well. I just didn't read it very well. I didn't realise there were so many speed demons around, and just assumed you were talking about everyone who overshoots.
    There are two different problems - those people who just completely ignore the music, and those who dance off beat. Understanding the beat is not easy. If you have never danced before, or never played a musical instrument, it can be difficult. There is at least one very experienced Ceroc teacher who has never been able to count music. However I've never seen any jive or swing teacher explain how to dance in time to the music. (I'm not talking about any advanced musical interpretation - just dancing to the beat.) I wouldn't even know how to teach it. But if it is obvious some people are having problems, maybe someone needs to have a go???

    And it's not just men that can't keep time. There are quite a few women that completely ignore the beat when they dance (or maybe I'm one of the 25% of men, and the lady is doing it right?
    Hi, back again and hopefully Franck won't need to come to my rescue this time.

    As well as being a ceroc teacher I also dabble in a bit of music teaching. (I am a secondary school music teacher).

    I don't think that people ignore the music. Perhaps they don't actually hear the beat. One reason for this would be that a lot of people are so caught up in what moves they are dancing and thinking about what is coming next that they find it hard to concentrate on the music. Unfortunately, and I say this as a music teacher and not a ceroc teacher, some people find it really hard to locate the beat in a piece of music and actually cannot even clap in time to music. Fortunately, in my experience, I believe that this can be improved.

    I actually touch on the aspect of timing when I am taking a beginners workshop. What I find helps is to get everyone to chant 'step back step in' with me as we go through the moves. We then progress to music and repeat this. I sometimes do the same whilst on the stage teaching a class. It's amazing to see everyone dancing in time when I chant 'step back step in'.

    lotsa love Lornax-x

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    Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by Franck
    We can usually tell the difference from the stage, I don't think Lorna was talking about a few people over-shooting, but about a few dancers determined to whizz through the move quickly. Maybe they think it will be impressive to their partners etc... They also do the same when practising to music, completely ignoring the beat and usually prompting me to remind them that Ceroc is not a race and there are no prizes for finishing first!!!
    Oh dear. I wish I'd read this thread before tonight's class. Maybe then I wouldn't have got a row from Franck. I don't (as far as I'm aware) race through moves when we are actually performing them to a count (or at least, not deliberately - I often find there are "pause" beats which I hadn't picked up when walking through the move :sorry ). However, if I have "got" the move I sometimes find that on the second or third walk-through the teacher pauses to explain some crucial point which someone is missing. This invariably seems to occur whilst in an uncomfortable position (for example, tonight's misdemeanour occured during the "lunge forward" of a back-hander move). Sadly my quadraceps are not what they could be, and I start feeling pain in this position after a couple of seconds. In this situation I generally move forward to wait in the next comfortable stance.

    The other reason I sometimes zip through the walk-through when I know the move is when they are easier (for me) to perform at speed.

    Hopefully you're all correct about teachers having saintly patience, or I can look forward to a smack on the chops some time soon!

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    Omnipresent Administrator Franck's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by Graham
    Oh dear. I wish I'd read this thread before tonight's class. Maybe then I wouldn't have got a row from Franck.
    /SNIP/ I start feeling pain in this position after a couple of seconds. In this situation I generally move forward to wait in the next comfortable stance.
    I think you're safe enough this time You definitely fall into the right category. Though, the way my Radio mike behaved last night, I don't think I would have noticed anyway :reallymad: I am off to buy a new one today.
    I agree with you that some positions can be quite painful to hold, and in that case you obviously need to move to a more comfortable stance (with your partner sitting on your knee for example )
    Originally posted by Graham
    The other reason I sometimes zip through the walk-through when I know the move is when they are easier (for me) to perform at speed.
    This on the other hand is a trickier one. Some moves are easier when executed a bit faster, but you should be able to do them slowly as well, otherwise you might miss subtle style / lead points in the process!

    Franck.

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    Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by Franck
    This on the other hand is a trickier one. Some moves are easier when executed a bit faster, but you should be able to do them slowly as well, otherwise you might miss subtle style / lead points in the process!
    Oh I agree - I was merely owning up to a personal limitation . It takes me several seconds to work out which way clockwise/anticlockwise is (I can only do this in plan, so I need to mentally perform a spatial transformation to picture myself and my partner from above), so if I already know the mechanics of the move I find it easier not to confuse myself by listening to and thinking about the instructions on which way myself or my partner needs to turn. The better I understand the move the slower I can go. I suppose I could try not listening to the teacher instead .

    I usually find this a problem on moves where there's a lot of hand-holding, turns under arms etc. I suppose walking through these moves is similar to "air-dancing" (ie dancing normally but with no actual contact with your partner, or indeed no actual partner ), and there are just some moves I can only perform with the tactile feedback from my partner to remind me which way to push/pull/move.

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    Re: Patience of a Saint

    Originally posted by DavidB
    However I've never seen any jive or swing teacher explain how to dance in time to the music. (I'm not talking about any advanced musical interpretation - just dancing to the beat
    I suppose some time is spent during classes as Lorna says just counting out the beats but this could be an element for a workshop.

    The only couple I have seen who spend time actually teaching timing and musical interpretation which was a key part of one of their workshops and though a few folk might have wondered why they were doing it most found it very useful.

    One of my very few strengths is keeping to the beat and over the years this has been strengthened by demo-ing with Lorna who can take me through moves to a beat .........I get lots of moves wrong, I forget moves almost as quickly as I learn them just as I foget names I'm afraid :sorry ............... but some records are more difficult to dance to

    As Dave suggests........not everyone has a 'natural' sense of rhythm or the experience of dancing so it can take time but what everyone is agreeing on is not beginners who are doing their best or even more experienced dancers ( experienced ?? isn't that a different thread ) who might have problems with a move but those men/women who constantly rush ahead and confuse other dancers - for whatever reason or who just don't listen and then do the move badly or get it completely wrong then possibly blame their partner :reallymad

    To all the teachers who do such a good job......to quote Niall.........'respect' !!!!!

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