A reminder (I'm trying not to rant!)

[jivecat]

Sadly this dance really knocked my confidence (when you spend nearly a whole track getting it wrong and looking like a one-legged prawn it happens) and I ended up rather more upset than I should be. (I'm VERY insecure about my dancing, and how I don't seem to be able to improve).

Oh, and I need to develop a thicker skin.

I'm sure you've already improved more than you realise and will carry on improving because you're motivated. And for every bad experience there's usually a good one waiting- maybe next week you'll have one of those wonderful dances that are led so beautifully that you'll feel as though you could'nt put a foot wrong. And yes, you will develop a thicker skin.

After 2 and a half years of Ceroc my skin has thickened to that mildly arrogant stage where I get irritated when a guy attempts to lead various moves, badly, I fluff them, then he says "Oh, don't you know that one then?" and spends the rest of the dance trying to "teach" them to me!

[DavidB]

All this discussion on Lead & Follow is great apart from one minor point - it doesn't get taught to the vast majority of dancers. The fact that there are so many ladies who can follow well is a minor miracle.


I usually haven't got a clue whether the lady is a beginner or an 'advanced' dancer. I couldn't stick to beginner moves anyway - I've forgotten what they are. I just lead whatever she seems happy following. More accurately I try not to repeat anything she seemed uncomfortable with

It doesn't matter if she doesn't know the move. I usually don't know what move I'm doing, so she has go no chance. If she follows her hand, she can do 50% of what I lead. If she matches the pressure in the connection, she can do the other 35%. (It is coming up to the summer sales, so I've taken 15% off to make the ladies feel happier.)

[Andy McGregor]

(It is coming up to the summer sales, so I've taken 15% off to make the ladies feel happier.)

Are there SHOES in this sale?

I think us 'ladies' would like 50% before we get excited

[Rougeforever]

BTW what was the male female ratio like at your venue last night, compared to a football free evening?

During the intermediate class it was around 2 ladies to one man, with more men turning up later. Overall there were only around 30 of us there all evening. I guess there are normally about 100, maybe more -it's a smallish dance floor and having space was *wonderful*. Some of the more advanced dancers practised their lifts in peace. Roll on the next England game - I'm going dancing again !

[Gadget]

on re-reading my previous post occurred to me that some beginner leads might look at the list of negatives and sink into despair...

Don't worry too much about getting every minute aspect of leading correct (remember; you're trying to please a woman )
The ladies tend to make our lives a lot easier and compensate for many/all of the things noted in that list: a good follower, like a good lead, will make you feel like you can dance properly, despite any faults.

[Jayne]

a good follower, like a good lead, will make you feel like you can dance properly, despite any faults.

How does that work then? I'm interested...

J

[ChrisA]

All this discussion on Lead & Follow is great apart from one minor point - it doesn't get taught to the vast majority of dancers. The fact that there are so many ladies who can follow well is a minor miracle.

Indeed, but anything that raises awareness - even just here - can only be a good thing.

You never know - it might even filter out to the wider MJ world little by little.

Well, I can dream can't I?

Chris

[Franck]

How does that work then? I'm interested...

Very simply. A great follower (say LilyB for example) will not only follow the moves and react faster to compensate for errors in your leading, last minute changes / confusion, but will also 'literally' do what you lead and still makes it look good. Combined with a smile and giving at least the impression that you did well, a good follower is a joy to dance with, and a great learning experience.
Most importantly, a good follower will boost her partner's confidence. As with the example above, I can think of several women who undermine the men they dance with, and as above again, those men dance (lead) better with other women (assuming they haven't given up by then) as they feel under less pressure.

All the above excludes the anti-social leaders (and followers), i.e. those who hurt their partners etc...

[Gadget]

How does that work then? I'm interested...

as Franck said.

I take it that you can feel the difference between a good lead and a poor lead on the same move? Rotations round classes give you an idea of just how many different ways that people will try and lead you into the same move.

A good follower will move in (roughly) the same way, into the same move, no matter who the lead is. They guess where the beginner is trying to lead them and act as if an 80% probability of going from A to B is 100%. The poorer the lead, the more they anticipate - they have to to compensate. The better the lead, the less they anticipate - no need to.

{well that's my theory anyway }

[Lou]

After 2 and a half years of Ceroc my skin has thickened to that mildly arrogant stage where I get irritated when a guy attempts to lead various moves, badly, I fluff them, then he says "Oh, don't you know that one then?" and spends the rest of the dance trying to "teach" them to me!

That's not arrogance, that's justification for homicide.

This whole thread only goes to reinforce the fact that following is as much of a skill as leading. DavidB, as usual, is spot on to say that it's a miracle that ladies do follow so well considering how much is taught.

To sum up what I've leart from this thread:

• Anticipation is bad.
• Except if the man wants/needs us to anticipate, when it's good.
• But don't make it obvious (think of his ego!).

Aha! Exactly the same technique as how to make a man do what you want - make him think it's his idea!

[Lou]

That's not arrogance, that's justification for homicide.

Sorry to quote me - but I just want to elaborate that I'm criticising the leader - not poor Jivecat (who I sympathise with as I've been in similar sitautions before), because my wording isn't very clear. Sorry!

[under par]

[/font]

The amount of ladies at numerous venues who state "I'm only a beginner" or some thing similar astounds me. Who I then lead through a progressively more difficult series of moves with ease.
Self confidence of both males and females is at fault.
I don't believe in myself as being a good dancer although I am regularly complimented on my dancing. I struggle to see myself at any particular level.
I know I have better nights some times than others .
But I still feel clumsy and find myself apologising for dancing into cul de sac moves where I find I do not know how I got there or how to get out.!!!!!

Does anybody else recognise these symptoms?

[Gary]

... I get irritated when a guy attempts to lead various moves, badly, I fluff them, then he says "Oh, don't you know that one then?"

I believe the correct reply is "Oh, don't you know how to lead that one then?"

...and spends the rest of the dance trying to "teach" them to me!

How very very dull!

[Andy McGregor]

Does anybody else recognise these symptoms?

I can still remember when I'd been dancing about a year Graham LeClerc taught what he called the "combine harvester". It started from a crossed double hand-hold, you combed the lady, caught her hand underneath, combed with the other hand, then combed again, repeating over and over. For ages I didn't know how to stop doing this move I'd have to leave it 'til the last move of the track or just step away and start again.

I believe the correct reply is "Oh, don't you know how to lead that one then?"

Of course, this is a tongue-in-cheek comment. A response like this would cause upset/conflict on the dance floor. And as most dancers are trying to get along it would be more appropriate to say something about working out how to do the move together - after all, MJ is a partner dance and for the duration of the track you are partners not opponents.

[under par]

I can still remember when I'd been dancing about a year Graham LeClerc taught what he called the "combine harvester". It started from a crossed double hand-hold, you combed the lady, caught her hand underneath, combed with the other hand, then combed again, repeating over and over. For ages I didn't know how to stop doing this move I'd have to leave it 'til the last move of the track or just step away and start again.
.

Thankfully I missed that lesson with Graham, the thought of a combine harvester never stopping with or without diesel is scarey. Though I owe graham a debt for all the unique lessons and original moves he has taught.

[under par]

Thankfully I missed that lesson with Graham, the thought of a combine harvester never stopping with or without diesel is scarey. Though I owe graham a debt for all the unique lessons and original moves he has taught.

Finally made senior member!!!!!!!!

[Gary]

Of course, this is a tongue-in-cheek comment. A response like this would cause upset/conflict on the dance floor.

Not entirely tongue-in-cheek. The "so you don't know how to lead that move" response is no more likely to cause upset/conflict than the guy's "so you don't know that move" comment, and might break the guy out of being complacent and patronising. Plus, if I were the girl, I'd already be a bit annoyed (but I suspect I'd make a terrible girl on a lot of counts).

Guy's egos being what they are, though, you're right that it would probably generate more heat than light

[Lou]

I can still remember when I'd been dancing about a year Graham LeClerc taught what he called the "combine harvester". It started from a crossed double hand-hold, you combed the lady, caught her hand underneath, combed with the other hand, then combed again, repeating over and over. For ages I didn't know how to stop doing this move I'd have to leave it 'til the last move of the track or just step away and start again.

*lol* It's still a well recognised Leroc move, and probably my least favourite one of all. Well, that & the full Nelson.

[ChrisA]

I believe the correct reply is "Oh, don't you know how to lead that one then?"

Of course, this is a tongue-in-cheek comment. A response like this would cause upset/conflict on the dance floor. And as most dancers are trying to get along it would be more appropriate to say something about working out how to do the move together - after all, MJ is a partner dance and for the duration of the track you are partners not opponents.

But by an asinine comment such as "oh you don't know that one then" (rather than an apology for (a) having the insensitivity to try the move, and (b) the poor leading ability that resulted in its failure), the guy has already announced his mindset - that of believing his dancing ability to be superior to the lady's. And he has cemented his insensitive attitude towards his partner by putting her down

Such a guy would inevitably interpret a suggestion about "working out how to do the move together " as an invitation to teach it, since he already doesn't believe he has anything to learn.

I think Gary's suggested reply is the correct one - no need for tongue-in-cheek at all. If the sting snaps him out of his complacency, well and good; if it doesn't, well, does the lady really want to be dancing with him?

Chris

[Gadget]

The amount of ladies at numerous venues who state "I'm only a beginner" or some thing similar astounds me. Who I then lead through a progressively more difficult series of moves with ease.

But I still feel clumsy and find myself apologising for dancing into cul de sac moves where I find I do not know how I got there or how to get out.!!!!!

Does anybody else recognise these symptoms?

yup. The octopus was a dangerous move to me for a while - just couldn't break free, or when I did, I went straight back into it! I was also finding the same sort of thing for a couple of move combinations - after doing move A, I would automatically start move B... no matter what I actually wanted to do.
I'm trying to break a habbit of excessive 'behind the back' moves just now; I know loads of ways to get into a cross-handed position, but only a couple of ways out again!