Teachers or Entertainers

[Heather]

I note from your location, Emma ,that you are English,or at least live in England. I would definitely NOT agree that in Scottish schools'people in most need tend to work with the people with the least training' . The Learning Support teacher is most definitely NOT an assistant, but a fully qualified teacher, possibly with a degree and who has undertaken further study to gain an extra qualification in Support for Learning.
HOWEVER, I may have misunderstood your comment, perhaps you are referring to the teaching of Ceroc, in which case you may well be correct in your statement.

Heather

[Lorna]

Originally posted by Heather
I note from your location, Emma ,that you are English,or at least live in England. I would definitely NOT agree that in Scottish schools'people in most need tend to work with the people with the least training' . The Learning Support teacher is most definitely NOT an assistant, but a fully qualified teacher, possibly with a degree and who has undertaken further study to gain an extra qualification in Support for Learning.
HOWEVER, I may have misunderstood your comment, perhaps you are referring to the teaching of Ceroc, in which case you may well be correct in your statement.

Heather

As a ceroc teacher and a secondary school teacher I am a little confused by your last statement When you say the 'teaching of ceroc' one assumes that you are talking about the teacher of the class, as it is not the role of the taxi dancer to teach, please clarify for me before I come over all defensive.

love lorna x-x

[Curtain]

I take it childcare doesn't pose enough challenge for you anymore, so you come on here ranting and raving. Get off the high horse and give it back to the wean (don't know if this is the correct spelling).

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Franck
we will be haveing a Taxi-dancer training workshop and general Crew meeting on Saturday 16th November. Once all the details (venue etc...) have been finalized, all the Aberdeen Crew will be contacted!

I am sure all the Beginners who join in Aberdeen / Glasgow after November will be very grateful!
Not to mention the respective teams of taxi-dancers who will of course have a fabulous day and get a free lunch in the process!

Well, not much of a help to me though? Any chance you could suggest to Scot that he does something similar for Dundee and Edinburgh although I realise he's got a lot to do at the moment organising Musselburgh.................

[Heather]

Lorna, I suggest you read Emmas comment earlier in the thread, then you will see that she suggested that the 'teaching ', of those in most need (I was assuming by that she was meaning in the school system)was usually done by those with the least training ie Learning Support Teachers. I then pointed out to her , the excellent qualifications of our Scottish Learning Support Teachers. However,she may have been referring to the Ceroc model of the Teacher taking the beginner class en masse, followed up by the Taxi dancers 'teaching' the beginners, ie, 'those most in need', in small groups(or very large groups if you are in Dundee!!) In which case, I concluded that she may well be correct, or not!!!!!
Either way theres no need to get in a strop!! I am qite sure that Ceroc Teachers are well trained and very qualified, but as a teacher yourself you will surely concede that, its not really ideal learning conditions to have a class of 50-60 people, and ensure that each of these pupils is learning at his own level and acheiving his full potential.That's why we fought for, and are still fighting for smaller class sizes, we might as well turn back the clock!!!!
However, Ceroc might well fly in the face of established teaching methods!!!!!
I would doubt if any Ceroc teacher could specify all the beginners names, let alone their individual skill and level in the moves taught on any particular Ceroc night.
I think Ceroc are well aware of this, otherwise , why would beginners be actively encouraged to attend beginners workshops, where the numbers are small and limited and the teaching more group/individual orientated ?
I hope that's enough clarification for you on my particular point of view, I still want to hear a reply from Emma, regarding her comments, though!!




Heather

[Heather]

Just re-read my post and want to add , I am well aware that it is not the taxi dancers job to 'Teach' the beginners, but the reality of a situation is somewhat different from the intention.
In Dundee, as Sheena pointed out previously, the beginners are extremely demanding and expect to be taught!! I am sure they think that the Taxi dancers are teachers/instructors whatever you may like to call them, and this is further enforced by the teacher saying 'the Taxi dancers are there for you',implying that their prime function is to spend the next hour entirely at their disposal 'teaching/ going over the moves', whatever you want to call it, in small groups.
I maintain that the best way to reinforce the moves taught, is to by all means go over the moves with the Taxi dancers , but also to practice with other, more experienced dancers in Freestyle. Beginners dancing with each other is a bit like the blind leading the blind.However, this does not seem to be happening in Dundee, the beginners go out into the foyer area to redo the moves taught in the class and then go home. Very few beginners stay for the Freesytyle!!!

Heather ( IN a ranting and raving mood this morning!!!!!)

[Lorna]

Originally posted by Heather
Lorna, I suggest you read Emmas comment earlier in the thread, then you will see that she suggested that the 'teaching ', of those in most need (I was assuming by that she was meaning in the school system)was usually done by those with the least training ie Learning Support Teachers. I then pointed out to her , the excellent qualifications of our Scottish Learning Support Teachers. However,she may have been referring to the Ceroc model of the Teacher taking the beginner class en masse, followed up by the Taxi dancers 'teaching' the beginners, ie, 'those most in need', in small groups(or very large groups if you are in Dundee!!) In which case, I concluded that she may well be correct, or not!!!!!
Either way theres no need to get in a strop!! I am qite sure that Ceroc Teachers are well trained and very qualified, but as a teacher yourself you will surely concede that, its not really ideal learning conditions to have a class of 50-60 people, and ensure that each of these pupils is learning at his own level and acheiving his full potential.That's why we fought for, and are still fighting for smaller class sizes, we might as well turn back the clock!!!!
However, Ceroc might well fly in the face of established teaching methods!!!!!
I would doubt if any Ceroc teacher could specify all the beginners names, let alone their individual skill and level in the moves taught on any particular Ceroc night.
I think Ceroc are well aware of this, otherwise , why would beginners be actively encouraged to attend beginners workshops, where the numbers are small and limited and the teaching more group/individual orientated ?
I hope that's enough clarification for you on my particular point of view, I still want to hear a reply from Emma, regarding her comments, though!!




Heather

Good night was it?

Well done for catching that spanner, you may have guessed that I'm new to posting and am amazed by the emotions that are stirred up so easily, Have a nice day!

love lornax-x

[Graham]

Good grief! Gus - I hope you're satisfied with the activity you have generated! Too quiet indeed!

Anyway, I think there have been several main issues discussed on this thread:

1. Do Ceroc classes teach anybody anything?
- As I discussed in my previous post, in my opinion they do an excellent job of taking most people from the standard of novice to intermediate.

2. Are Ceroc classes flawed because they do not seem to be able to take people from the standard of intermediate to a more advanced standard?
- I don't think so. As Franck has mentioned, the Ceroc infrastructure for doing this is through workshops. Let's face it, you wouldn't expect to become an expert in anything else simply by attending large mixed-ability classes. If you went to a conversational French class, for example, then I would expect that you would be able to progress from the standard of novice to the standard of someone who could communicate adequately in day-to-day situations. I would NOT expect you to become fluent, or to develop a gallic accent. People who do become fluent do so either by living in a French-speaking country or by having very intensive teaching with people who are themselves fluent.

3. Is there something wrong with modern jive teaching which means that you have to go "outside" to get better (eg lindyhop, salsa)
- Again, I don't think so. As Franck has also pointed out, it is a fundamental feature of modern jive that it is flexible and allows a very great deal of individual interpretation and variation, compared to, say, ballroom. When most of us think of people who are "outstanding" dancers, I'm sure that a large part of what makes most of them look so good is that they are incorporating style/variations from other dance forms which most of us wouldn't have thought of. In any case, Gus's original point that the good dancers were the same as two years ago is hardly surprising. He was talking about people who have either got bucketloads of natural talent or have spent a very long time practising. In either case I wouldn't have expected there to be a huge turnover within a period of two years.

4. Do/should taxi dancers teach?
- Like it or not, taxi dancers do teach. Beginners are specifically told to ask them for help, and unless they don't answer these questions they are teaching. Whether they do it very well is another question, and not one I feel qualified (or safe ) to answer. At least Franck is now going to have some training with them which should introduce a consistent approach.

5. Could Ceroc classes be any better in developing intermediate dancers than they are currently, without losing any of the things which make them good at teaching beginners and catering for social dancers?
- Absolutely yes. I notice that nearly everyone who has posted on this thread is either a teacher or in this "intermediate" category. Here's my suggestion. Last Wednesday was one of the best intermediate classes I've done. The reason was that two of the moves were lifted from H's workshop, so I already knew them. Having only two new moves to learn I found I was able to do the whole routine without any problem, and in fact only made one "terminal" mistake (ie one which interrupted the flow of the move) in the whole class. The penny suddenly dropped that the reason I normally found it difficult was that I was having to remember the entire sequence of movements, as opposed to simply remembering which order they were in like in the beginner class. Wendy suggested this before, but I think I would be able to get more out of the intermediate class if it wasn't always four complex/new moves, but perhaps two of these, and two which were merely variations of beginner moves, or even actually beginner's moves but with a style component. Although it seems as if you would learn fewer moves, I think you would actually REMEMBER more of them to be able to do in freestyle.

[Emma]

Ok, chaps, let's clear something up. Horribly off topic, but I guess that's my fault for mixing business with pleasure.

I'm an English primary school teacher and ex-SENco. When I read Heather's comments about 'Learning Support Teachers' I wrongly assumed she was referring to 'Learning Support Assistants', which is the latest euphamism here for a classroom helper. In England these people have very little training and are extremely poorly paid. They are however often the backbone of the Special Needs department, frequently giving full-time support to statemented children (ie, those in most need). I am extremely pleased to hear that this situation doesn't exist in Scotland.

I'll get back under my rock now. If anyone sees me commenting about education again, slap me.

[Curtain]

By the way Lorna, I was only joking!! I probably should have made that more obvious.

Whoops!!

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Come to think of it, where's DaveB? He can usually be relied on to have a sage contribution on subjects like this.

I've been on holiday learning how to play golf. I now know what I'm doing wrong, but that doesn't mean I can do it right. (Sounds a lot like my dancing)

Interesting thread - it seems most people are happy with the way Modern Jive turns absolute beginners into reasonable intermediate dancers, and makes it very enjoyable in the process. Without a doubt it is better at this than any other form of dancing I've seen.

It also seems that some (but not all) intermediate dancers want to develop their dancing, but find that Modern Jive doesn't do this as well as they had hoped.

Taxi dancers for intermediates seems like a good idea. How about asking the intermediates themselves for suggestions on who they would like? And what would you call them - chauffeur dancers? Limo dancers?

A regular advanced class would be ideal, but they don't seem to be financially viable. Workshops are good, but how many people maintain a real improvement several weeks later? Why not have a short 'advanced' course, say 6 weeks long, where you can teach things like style and interpretation (and dare I say technique?) It would give you a chance to learn something new each week, and get reinforcement of what you did before.

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Why not have a short 'advanced' course, say 6 weeks long, where you can teach things like style and interpretation (and dare I say technique?) It would give you a chance to learn something new each week, and get reinforcement of what you did before.

David

Knew I could count on you to give some perspective on the situation.

The idea appeals. I remeber hearing a rumour that Nigel and Nina had run something similar on the South Coast about 18 months ago ... word was it was on the basis of by invitation only, addressing the cream of the crop.

I think its could work ... the main stumbling block(s) being sufficicent number of good enough/motivated enough dancers who also have the time to give up. Other than that its a brilliant, cunning plan Baldrick!


PS: Re holiday ... please remember to get permission from Uncle Franck before you skive off the Forum next time!

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
Why not have a short 'advanced' course, say 6 weeks long, where you can teach things like style and interpretation (and dare I say technique?) It would give you a chance to learn something new each week, and get reinforcement of what you did before.

An excellent summary of the (now really long) thread... Welcome back David, and as Gus said, make sure you give notice before going on holiday again

Regarding the above, I agree that this would be great, but as you mention, time and financial viability could make it difficult to organize...

One of the possible problems, is a misconception re. workshops (from Beginners to Style). Most people assume that once they have done a workshop, they can either stop then or move on to the next level.
From my experience, it is much better to treat workshops as something you should do every 2/3 of months (or more often!), repeating the same workshops several times, as many people have mentioned, you are unlikely to remember everything you learnt at any give workshop, but by repeating it a few months later, you actually learn twice as much, twice as fast!
This would have the same effect as your suggestion without forcing a (limited) number of people to all attend at once.

The problem I have is that when I mention that, people usually assume I am just trying to sell more workshops!
While this is true up to a point, I really believe that many (repeated) workshops is the fastest / easiest way to improving your dancing to the next level. In particular, I would recommend that most "Intermediate" Cerocers book themselves into a Beginners course, you would be surprised how many bad habits you have...

Franck.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Franck
you would be surprised how many bad habits you have...

Au contraire: depressed perhaps, but not surprised!

[Jon]

I totally agree with Frank and I'm not a teacher (although I wouldn't mind the job) so you can believe me.

I have done so many workshops now that I have actually lost count, all I know is it's well over 20 (did one this weekend). I've done all the beginner, intermediate and style workshops twice.

The first time you do a workshop you will leave having learnt some of the moves and be able to freestyle them confidently. Do it a second time and you will learn most if not all of the moves and be technically accurate in executing them. You'll find they become easier to do and that you can actually concentrate on the style points for each move and not the move itself.

It's doing the workshop a second time where I usually get the most benefit and I find my dancing improves alot more.

As for the beginner workshops these should be done by every one who's learning. After all they are the foundation that the intermediate moves are built on. Getting these technically accuracte makes the intermediate moves so much easier to learn, let alone the advanced stuff. It's the level of teaching on the cerocshops that make you a better dancer quickly as they cover so much more than you would be taught in an evening class.

One of my Ceroc teachers calls me 'Mr Technical' now.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jon
I have done so many workshops now that I have actually lost count, all I know is it's well over 20 (did one this weekend). I've done all the beginner, intermediate and style workshops twice.

/SNIP lots of useful advice/

One of my Ceroc teachers calls me 'Mr Technical' now.

Well Mr Technical, there is a name for your condition: "Ceroc-aholism", unfortunately, there is no cure at present, but with help you can manage your addiction

On a serious note, over 20 might be on the extreme side!
My recommendation would be to do a Beginners workshop in the first 12/16 weeks of learning Ceroc (but not before you have attended a couple of classes first). Then take a couple of months to practise what you learnt and doing the Intermediate class. Then do a couple of Intermediate workshops in the first 12/18 months. After that, I would recommend going back to a Beginners workshop again (you might be able to get a discount if you phone at the last minute and help balancing numbers ).
After that, try and do a Style or Intermediate workshop every six months and your dancing will progress beyond expectations!

This might seem like a lot, but it is only 2/3 workshops per year, and this is only for those of you that really want to work on your dancing. Most of us will manage to become perfectly good after 6 months of dancing and maybe a Beginners workshop!

Franck.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Franck
[After that, try and do a Style or Intermediate workshop every six months and your dancing will progress beyond expectations!

This might seem like a lot, but it is only 2/3 workshops per year, and this is only for those of you that really want to work on your dancing. Most of us will manage to become perfectly good after 6 months of dancing and maybe a Beginners workshop!

Franck. [/B]

I think this has been touched on before but I don't know if I agree with this Frank. As someone else mentioned earlier there will be some dancers who, for different reasons, won't really pick up any style however long they dance - but they can still have a great time. There are others who would not gain a great deal by repeating a beginner's class or even a style workshop when they have been dancing for a couple of years.

It ties a few comments and threads together I suppose. What is an experienced dancer and where do they go to improve ? Those dancers who really want to improve will 'devour' all the normal Ceroc workshops and then look for more but as Ceroc is not about technique - or always about real style - more style workshops would only be helpful if there were more of them and each one concentrated on very specific areas. There were ( are?) two differnt workshops and they were very good and I don't know many people who wouldn't admit that they could still improve their dancing

Top up classes are a good idea as it's so easy to forget and however good a workshop is most of us will only remember and use a fraction of what we learn. Last year I did a V& L workshop twice within a month or two and the second time was great as I already knew the basics but could concentrate on the more subtle style points. I can even remember a couple of the moves

Goodness I feel like a workshop........................

[Gus]

Hmmmm ... think, as usual, the truth may lie in the middle ground. More workshops can be good for dancers who want to improve ... at whatever level ... but there are limits to what you can achieve through workshops. A someone who runs workshops it pains me to say it but workshops are NOT the answer! The way to progress is to practice your moves with a regular partner(s).

I now only do a couple of workshops a year as I STILL havn't assimilated all the points fomr the Viktor/Lydia workshop from lats year (and probably not even from the 2000 workshop). when I go to Jivespree now I do less and watch more.

The biggest development in my dancing has come through noteing all the key points, finding the ones that suit my style, practising with a couple of dance partners, videoing the results, getting majorly depressed and swear never to dance ever again, get back on the dance floor and slowly the changes come.


Having said that ... ignoring the improvement in dance style ... workshops can actualy be great fun. I would recommend even advanced danecrs going back to do Beginners cerocshops ... surprising what you pick up!!

Personal view entirely.

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Hmmmm ... think, as usual, the truth may lie in the middle ground.

Are you feeling ok Gus??? Middle ground? If you don't watch it I will have to strip you of your Official Devil's Advocate title!

Originally posted by Gus
I now only do a couple of workshops a year as I STILL havn't assimilated all the points fomr the Viktor/Lydia workshop from lats year (and probably not even from the 2000 workshop).

Well, I agree, and it is nigh on impossible to assimilate all the points, but you do have to pick and choose, and every time you repeat a particular workshop, you build on the points you had assimilated from the previous one.

Originally posted by Gus
The biggest development in my dancing has come through noteing all the key points, finding the ones that suit my style, practising with a couple of dance partners, videoing the results, getting majorly depressed and swear never to dance ever again, get back on the dance floor and slowly the changes come.

This is so true. The first thing is to identify the Style points that either suit you or the ones that you are ready for. Trying to include Style points that do not fit your dancing style, body or current level of ability can be counter-productive. Once you have done that and if you survive the "I can't do this and never will" Phase then a lot of regular practise and voila! New style.

I fear we are in danger of agreeing there, so maybe you should start a new thread / topic where we can have a proper 'discussion'

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
Are you feeling ok Gus??? Middle ground? If you don't watch it I will have to strip you of your Official Devil's Advocate title!

I fear we are in danger of agreeing there, so maybe you should start a new thread / topic where we can have a proper 'discussion'

Franck.

Franck, your fears are without substance. I've got a weekend of doing too many things, a headcold and I KNOW that at the Saturday night freestyle I'll be requested to play Sophie Catface and other such drivel .... so I'll be just in the mood to post something REALLY contentious.

The idea has nearly taken form and this time the target is .... 'southern ceroc teachers/franchisees' ... that should stir up some controvesy

Ahh the power of the vitriol pen......