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Thread: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

  1. #1
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Question Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    {ODA Mode ON}
    Do we need highly trained Teacher to teach beginners? Already, the main organisations all rely on Taxi Dancers/Blitz Jivers to reinforce or other teach beginners ... so is it that far removed to have them on stage? If you consider how many independents there are teaching, a fair few of whom are no more experienced than the average taxi dancer .....

    It would be one way of countering the shortage of fully qualified teachers. It could reduce costs on a night, and allow teachers who can't get to classes before 9pm a chance to still teach.
    {ODA Mode OFF}

    Discuss.

  2. #2
    The Oracle
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    I think you need qualified teachers to teach beginners. Whether they have to be fully qualified is a different question. As I understand it, the CTA involves learning how to teach in the Ceroc way, and also learning hundreds of moves to teach. Maybe there could be an interim qualification that just allows you to teach the standard beginner moves. It could also be cheaper - thus reducing the risk to the franchise holder that is sponsoring the CTA course.

    (My understanding of the CTA is not exactly extensive. They may already do this.)

    David

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    Good question. Difficult.
    In some ways I would prefer to see the (trained) teachers acting as (untrained) taxis and the taxi's acting as teachers:
    + Taxis are to help the novices and beginners to understand and 'get' the basics. They run a micro-workshop while the intermediate class is on. While they don't need to know any advanced stuff, they should have an extensive knowledge of the 'proper' way to execute moves & be able to pass on some advice. They are selected by the teacher, so they must show some 'spark' of teaching ability. I think that trained teachers should be better than untrained taxis at this.
    - Taxis are generally selected for enthusiasm and ability to put newbies at ease; teachers may not be as good at this as them. Being just 'one of the masses' instead of in the spotlight like the teachers, makes them more 'human' and approachable. Using Taxis for beginners frees up the teacher to comcentrate on the more advanced pupils. Taxis can give more time for one-on-one instruction (since there are more of them than the teacher)

    I would say that if you are looking to actually teach beginners, then a qualified teacher is best - beginner workshops.
    However Taxis are not really there to teach IMHO : They are there to pass on the addiction virus. To help them learn.


    I think that teaching is a skill and those who cannot, should not. I see no problem with those who can teach, teaching - even if they are not recognised teachers or have recognised qualifications. AS LONG AS they do not attempt to teach beyond there level or without adequate safety/slease warnings.

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    Taxis probably should have some teaching ability as well as being good dancers themselves, with that important spark of enjoyment.

    My experience of taxi dancers is that they vary a great deal.

    Some really can't explain a thing.

    Some can explain, but can't see where someone is going wrong.

    Some can teach ok, but are not really interested in supporting beginners (I was at one Ceroc night and the two taxi dancers spent quite a lot of the freestyle pre-10 o'clock time dancing with each other....now that's taking the p***).

    And some are great people, with an enthusiasm for dance and for passing it one, and with teaching ability.

    These perfect taxis are very rare!

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    Registered User Foofs's Avatar
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    I would have thought it would be best to have a teacher teach the beginners as it stops/reduces bad habits from the beginning. I'm not sayng taxi dancers have bad habits but it is my experience in other styles of dance that to start off being taught by an unqualified person can cause problems in the future, especially with more complicated moves.

    That is NOT to say that experienced/taxi dancers cannot help and point in the right direction.

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    teaching my granny to suck eggs

    I am not familiar with CeRoc rules

    It’s called LeRoc down ‘er in Bristol
    But I would suggest, regardless of what is being taught (. dancing, sailing, flying, or whatever)
    It is important that the person teaching a beginner to dance, not only knows how to dance but far more important how to teach
    I can remember, virtually word for word, what I was taught as a beginner and it still affects my dancing 10 years later

    Today - I am not interested in a teacher’s paper qualification, it easy to find out by word of mouth, if they are any good, something a beginner cannot do

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    Registered User John Gimber's Avatar
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    I suppose the "qualified teacher" thing does get quite muddy - as Phil says, here in Bristol it's definitely an interesting place to be teacher-wise. We have LeRoc Federation teachers and non-LeRoc Federation teachers, but we all teach roughly the same thing.

    As a teacher myself, I get horrified at the thought of a Beginner learning from someone who doesn't know what they're doing - the effects of this reach further than the learner, but also to everyone that learner subsequently dances with.

    I don't care whether the person is qualified or not, or a Federation member or not. Teaching ability (in my opinion) should be concentrated at the Beginner level to hammer in the technique used for "life", and again at the advanced level, to ensure that damage to self and others is avoided.

    Intermediates - well, that's a great melting pot for ideas, teaching methods, footwork, handword, you name it. Here I would say that teaching ability is less of an issue, providing the teacher can inspire and contribute something, if not everything. I would also encourage learners to visit lots of different teachers of different abilities - to take different ideas and styles from each, as is appropriate to their stage of learning at the time.

    Back to the Beginners though - consistency of teaching is something that I hold dear to my heart. If a person is taught the same thing in 5 different ways, what hope do we as teachers have of providing a consistent baseline for people to learn from? Get the basics right, everything else falls into place.

    (This does lean towards the age-old difference of how LeRoc and CeRoc differs a bit though - I seem to find that LeRoc is a little more technical - footwise and balancewise, which gives it a good flowing and tight appearance, but CeRoc is more relaxed, which leads to it being more expressive and more open to interpretation. Personal opinion there though!).

    John.

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    Re: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    Originally posted by Gus
    Do we need highly trained Teacher to teach beginners?
    ~snippity snip~
    It would be one way of countering the shortage of fully qualified teachers. It could reduce costs
    Gus, you sure you don't work for the Department of Education?

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    Originally posted by Emma
    Gus, you sure you don't work for the Department of Education?
    Ahh ... now you know what the genesis for this thread I havn't said what my views are but I beliebve there are pros and cons.


    Originally posted by John Gimber
    As a teacher myself, I get horrified at the thought of a Beginner learning from someone who doesn't know what they're doing - the effects of this reach further than the learner, but also to everyone that learner subsequently dances with.
    Hmm .. who says all taxi dancers dont know what they are doing? I've had crew who (IMHO) can teach beginners moves better than a number of Ceroc and LeRoc teachers I've seen. If Taxi Dancers were properly coaching specifically to teahc the 22 or so beginners moves ... could this work?

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    Registered User John Gimber's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    Originally posted by Gus
    Ahh ... now you know what the genesis for this thread I havn't said what my views are but I beliebve there are pros and cons.




    Hmm .. who says all taxi dancers dont know what they are doing? I've had crew who (IMHO) can teach beginners moves better than a number of Ceroc and LeRoc teachers I've seen. If Taxi Dancers were properly coaching specifically to teahc the 22 or so beginners moves ... could this work?
    Well, I never said "not taxi dancers"! I don't care who teaches them - if the person helping the dancer to learn knows what he/she is doing then I don't care who it is. If the taxi dancer is a better teacher than the teacher, then the taxi dancer is more qualified for the job. It's a "use the right tool for the job" kind of approach.

    If it's a person who "thinks" they know how to teach, but in fact doesn't teach well at all, then I'd rather that they didn't! Or that they found someone who could teach them how to teach properly.

    Your comment about having a good team is also a handy one - several people can teach something correctly but from different perspectives - this, in my opinion, often works really well to get points across to a wider cross-section of learners. I often try to teach the same thing different ways, to give different "biases" on them. Working as a team can be extremely successful, especially if some people are more specialised in different things - you can concentrate your teaching potential where it can do the most good.

    John.
    Last edited by John Gimber; 14th-April-2004 at 11:35 AM.

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    Re: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    Is there an advantage in having "world class" teachers teaching beginners?

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    Re: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinHarper
    Is there an advantage in having "world class" teachers teaching beginners?
    If you mean teachers who teach world class moves and world class dancers, then perhaps; they will know better than anyone that the main building blocks of your dancing are in the basics and simple things - if learned 'properly' early, then it could provide an excelent base for future development.
    But this may be boaring and too intensive/nitt-picking for most beginners.

    If you mean teachers who are world class in their teaching ability, then definetly.

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    Re: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    {ODA Mode ON}
    Do we need highly trained Teacher to teach beginners?
    {ODA Mode OFF}

    Discuss.
    If you think someone can do a good job and you observe them do so in a trail, I don't think they need any training at all.

    (which isn't to say they would not benefit from good training and detriment from bad training.)

    My favorite teachers of many things were not trained.

    I think attending good classes teaches you how to teach if you are observant enough, and bad classes can teach you as much.

    You can become more observant by practicing observing things.

    Intellectual DIY if you will.

    'Make everything you do the product of your own conclusions'
    - Jim Rohn

    'Don't rely on other people's quotes to back up your own poorly argued opinions'.
    - Amir Giles.

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    One thing you can't teach teachers is experience and IMO beginners need experienced teachers as they have the most patience (well should have) - I would think that is far more important than their qualifications


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minnie M
    One thing you can't teach teachers is experience and IMO beginners need experienced teachers as they have the most patience (well should have) - I would think that is far more important than their qualifications
    The most important thing that a beginner teacher has to learn is not to 'teach' . to explain, its fairly common to look down on the 60 or so dancers and see a couple of dancers who really haven’t got it. Unfortunately, to make the teaching model work and to stay on time, you cant start breaking out of the pattern to give them direct coaching .... that’s where the review lesson and taxi dancers comes in. You can try to identify what they are doing wrong and incorporate that into your key pint demonstration ... but otherwise if you get distracted and start trying to teach the minority the overall class deteriorates. Does that make any kind of sense?

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    Re: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    I expect it makes some kind of sense If only we could work out what it was

    In answer to Martin, I think it's essential to bear in mind that most teachers who are reknowned for being "world class" (or even "quite good in UK modern jive circles") are not necessarily famous for their skill in teaching beginners. Some actually do this fantastically well, but others are really better teaching people who already know how to dance (or in Viktor's case, people who are double-jointed )

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    Senior Member Minnie M's Avatar
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    Re: Do we need fully qualified teachers to teach beginners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gus
    The most important thing that a beginner teacher has to learn is not to 'teach' . to explain, its fairly common to look down on the 60 or so dancers and see a couple of dancers who really haven’t got it. Unfortunately, to make the teaching model work and to stay on time, you cant start breaking out of the pattern to give them direct coaching .... that’s where the review lesson and taxi dancers comes in. You can try to identify what they are doing wrong and incorporate that into your key pint demonstration ... but otherwise if you get distracted and start trying to teach the minority the overall class deteriorates. Does that make any kind of sense?
    that is why I can't teach dance but can teach in other areas

    and yes, I stand corrected, explain rather than 'teach' beginners


    --ooOoo--
    Age is a question of mind over matter, if you don't mind, it doesn't matter
    Leroy (Satchel) Paige (1906-1982)

    Mickey Mouse's girlfriend, Minnie, made her film debut, along with Mickey, in "Steamboat Willie" on November 18, 1928.
    That date is recognized as her official birthday.

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