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Thread: Ripping off new customers

  1. #41
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    But the nicest thing was membership of ANY swing dance club got you in for $12. They had never heard of Ceroc, but still accepted their card.
    d
    now thats what i call benefiting the customer - you dont get that sort of service here thats for sure. Smaller country, fewer people - is that the reason ?

    Originally posted by Carla B On the basis that I have heard of people collapsing and sometimes dying on the dance floor, I would have thought that maintaining a list of personal details of members is a good idea.
    Why ? Ceroc are unlikely to take it upon themselves to inform the next of kin! All they have to go on is a signed card, do all venues have instant access to all details filled in by the original person and how useful would it be if they did ? Theres no benefit to the member in personal detals being held by Ceroc that i can see.

    And lastly with a serious terrorist threat in London I'm very happy that Ceroc knows whose in the room at any one time.
    No they dont. You flash your card, they dont usually take a note of the number. Whose to say its your card, or that you gave correct details when you did fill in the form. I assume you mean if there was an explosion the authorities could identify the casualties because they have ceroc cards - they would certainly see that as unreliable id and look for other id to back it up, assuming Ceroc themselves could provide any data based on those cards anyway.

  2. #42
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Originally posted by RobC
    attaching a rudimentary 'skill level' to each customer, probably based on length of time since they registered in the absence of a better measure, and to monitor how many of each type of dancer come each week.
    A very crude measure, I'd suggest, and one that would give the wrong answers. At the venue I know best, there are many people who have been coming regularly for years and have got no better for a long time. Which is fine, of course - they enjoy themselves, and this makes for a very happy atmosphere on which many have commented, but it wouldn't help if the objective was to match the classes to the level.

    This information can then be fed back to the teachers who can then vary their routines to more accurately suit the capabilities of the people in the classes - hence benefiting the members.
    Well on this basis, the intermediate classes would by now be very difficult indeed, if those that have been dancing longest and come regularly are deemed to be the best and therefore in need of challenge.

    I think it's more productive for the teacher to simply observe how the class gets on with the routine taught, and adjust the difficulty level accordingly.

    It doesn't even follow that if the dancers aren't so good, easier routines are better - such an approach becomes self-perpetuating, and maybe more challenging routines would attract better dancers that would improve the general standard.

    It could also be used to monitor when a particular 'group' of dancers are no longer regularly attending the venue, and sending them offers to attract them back.
    Now you're talking. But again, defining the groups (except by actual identity) is likely to be too crude. The venue managers, teachers, and taxi dancers quickly get to know who the best dancers are at a venue, and would be a much more accurate way of defining a group to be targeted. Having their details of course makes that possible.
    but once we get the members database up and running in Fleet, it's definitely something I want to try and do.
    Don't get me wrong... I'd be quite interested to see if anything useful can be done with all the data. Having spent 5 years in the loyalty business myself, though, I know only too well how easy it is to ask the wrong questions and get meaningless answers.

    Question: does the card scanner also record the time at which the person turned up?

    Chris

  3. #43
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    Originally posted by RobC
    One way which springs to mind (though I have no idea if anyone actually does this) is to enable the venue to track changes in the demographics of the venue. By that, I don't mean tracking an individual and seeing when they come to the venue or not. What I mean is to use data mining techniques on the accumulated data, attaching a rudimentary 'skill level' to each customer, probably based on length of time since they registered in the absence of a better measure, and to monitor how many of each type of dancer come each week.

    This information can then be fed back to the teachers who can then vary their routines to more accurately suit the capabilities of the people in the classes - hence benefiting the members.

    It could also be used to monitor when a particular 'group' of dancers are no longer regularly attending the venue, and sending them offers to attract them back. For example, if you have a big influx of beginners, but some of your top dancer stop coming, a head count, or takings count won't show any problem, but the general standard in the venue will start to slip. If you know some of your top dancers are only coming 1 week in 3, you can send them 'personalised vouchers' to attract them back on the weeks they are less likely to attend, benefitting them with free/cheaper entry and the rest of the venue by maintaining a high standard of dancer.

    Like I said, I have no idea if anyone actually does this kind of thing at the moment, but once we get the members database up and running in Fleet, it's definitely something I want to try and do.
    Yeah. What Chris said. As a teacher, I'd be much more likely to base my classes on what I observed while I taught, rather than on some meaningless information based on how long the average person at the class had been attending (or whatever).

    Incidentally. If for whatever reason I decided to stop going to a venue, I think that the last thing I'd want, is for the venue to start contacting me. To whit, I usually put meaningless rubbish on the forms whenever I go to a new place, and have to fill them out (also negating what CarlaB said). I used to teach occasionally for Jeff Jasper in Brighton. He (without my permission) added my phone number, which I'd given him solely to use regarding contacting me about teaching for him, to his database, and I now regularly receive text messages regarding his dances. It's very annoying, and as yet, I haven't been able to manage to remove my number from his list (despite following the instructions given on how to do this).

    Maybe it's just me, and my own personal view on life, but getting "junk" communication through the post, email, or phone, trying to persuade me to do something I had decided I didn't want to do, would be just about the last way to get me to reverse my decision, and would probably make me much more likely never to go back there again.

    Trampy

  4. #44
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    Originally posted by ChrisA
    A very crude measure, I'd suggest, and one that would give the wrong answers.
    I agree - not ideal, but short of 'grading' everyone that comes through the door (and re-grading them on a regular basis) I can't think of a better measure. And besides, as a general rule of thumb, people do get better over time (even if not at the same pace).
    Question: does the card scanner also record the time at which the person turned up?
    I don't know, but I plan to find out. Perhaps this could be used to help 'guestimate' someone's level - do they turn up for the beginners class / int. class / just for freestyle.

    I think it's more productive for the teacher to simply observe how the class gets on with the routine taught, and adjust the difficulty level accordingly.
    Absolutely, and I would hope that any teacher worth their salt already does this. What I am referring to is in the lesson planning. If the teacher knows that a lot of the better dancers are not attending so regularly and there has recently been a large influx of beginners who are starting to try the intermediate lesson, then they can start off with a slightly easier routine and vary it accordingly as they see who is actually in the class.

    Don't get me wrong... I'd be quite interested to see if anything useful can be done with all the data. Having spent 5 years in the loyalty business myself, though, I know only too well how easy it is to ask the wrong questions and get meaningless answers.
    Me too - which is why I'm going to give it a try. Data mining is a discipline in itself though, and one that can take potentially forever to setup without any guarantee of getting anything useful out of it at the end. I've not done a great deal of data mining before, but I have been on one or two training courses and evaluated a couple of packages for a customer at work. As you say, it's not just about asking the right question, but often about how you ask it. And as part of this exercise, I am planning to take a look at the Ceroc database itself and see if any additional value can be had from it (such as recording entry time, if it's not already done, or if they bring a new member along for the first time/who introduced them to Ceroc etc).

  5. #45
    Registered User ChrisA's Avatar
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    Originally posted by RobC
    I agree - not ideal, but short of 'grading' everyone that comes through the door (and re-grading them on a regular basis) I can't think of a better measure.
    - Total nights attended would be better (though still not great) than time since registration. I had done three classes in my first 18 months, so I was still hopeless.

    - You'd want recency in there, too, to give an indication of how many of those nights were recent, as opposed to five years ago.

    - Nights per month would give an indication of current enthusiasm.

    - Workshops attended might give an idea of level for very early intermediates.

    I'm sure there would be other measures that might throw up things of interest. But I'd take a lot of convincing that any of them would be better at actually improving the venue than local knowledge, intelligently applied.

    Originally posted by RobC
    And besides, as a general rule of thumb, people do get better over time (even if not at the same pace).
    Actually, I think this is only true up to a point. The majority seem to rapidly get to a plateau and stay there. What else would you expect from the ones that only dance once a week or less?

    It's the keen ones that continue to improve. And from the state of my fingers, knees and shoulders, I fear that there aren't enough of the keen ones.

    Chris

  6. #46
    Registered User Daniel Sandars's Avatar
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    Data

    Customer's data should be gathered with explicitly permission to conduct market research. It should not be coaxed off them as a condition of the enjoying a good dance. There is plenty of data ethics and privacy legislation and related privacy groups that can be invoked to reinforce this point

    I think a distinction needs to be made between a novice dancers induction pack and simply welcoming a new dancer to your night.

    The basic point that you don't need to charge for it is unwaveringly true. Why 'tax' your new and visiting supporters. Cover the admin by the rewards of a more accessible and enjoyable night for all.

    Of all the reason but forward to support the collection of membership data few survive any acid tests. Perhaps dance promotes should also consider electronic tagging to monitor customer behaviour, loyalty and even their vital statistics, such as heart rhythm. Don't knock it! It works for farm animal management and prisoners on parole.

  7. #47
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    Originally posted by Martin
    You have made similar statements earlier in the thread and then failed to back them up with any substantive evidence.

    Please do enlighten us to exactly HOW recording attendance and membership cards (and charging for this) benifits the members and is good for the members.
    In general I suggest that you do a web search on "data mining" and benefits.

    Ceroc Central has recently opened new venues in Rugby on a Thursday and Buckingham on a Monday, whilst changing Milton Keynes to a Wednesday. All based on demographics.

    It was able to mail members in those areas that had previously attended venues much more remote from them, and was able to identify others that may have found Wednesday a better night for dancing..

    It is possible that this was a nuisance to some, more paper for the bin. It is also certain that it was good news gratefully received by the others that attended, and continue to attend.

    The new members that were attracted by busks and local publicity had the benefits of the prescence of more experienced members that might not otherwise have known of the new venue.

    All of this contributed to the successful launch of these new venues, and to the increased likelihood of other new venues being opened, more future choice, another membership benefit.

    I went to Hipsters last night, they do not have membership cards and did not feel in the slightest disadvantaged due to a lack of a card to carry with me.
    They say that ignorance is bliss.

  8. #48
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    Originally posted by RobC

    Like I said, I have no idea if anyone actually does this kind of thing at the moment, ...
    I went to a few classes at Catzah Danz in Wentworthville, then stopped because it was a bit far for me to travel (which was a shame because Carren is a fantastic teacher).

    Anyway, when my birthday came around I got a "free birthday class" offer in the mail from them, which I thought was both nice and clever of them.

  9. #49
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    I thought as Ceroc's London manager I thought I would try and explain why we have to maintain a membership.

    1. For a number of our venues in London we are legally oblidged to maintain a list of members (with current details) as our entertainments licence is based on our being a private members club.

    2. Our Public liability insurance also insists that we maintain a current list of members.

    3. Ceroc is a business, and just like any other business we use this information for marketing purposes.

    4. In order to attract the sponsorship that we have agreed to date, and hopefully secure further sponsorship opportunities we need to be able to provide demographic information. Sponsorship enables us to grow and host major events where effectively the dancers attendance is subsidised.

    5. The information from our membership enables us to understand where we need to open new venues, where to have freestyle nights, where we need to advertise etc. I can also tell you that Ceroc in London spent last year £29.12 in advertising and promotion per new member that joined in 2003, and therefore it's critcal that we understand how effective this expenditure was.

    6. Lastly, we did have someone collapse at a London night and all they had on them was a work id card, a driving licence and a Ceroc membership card. From the membership card we were able to send someone to his home address at the same time as he was being put into an ambulance!

    Ceroc membership costs anything from free to £3 depending on which Ceroc venue you join at. This represents life membership and your card entitles you to go to any Ceroc venue in the country without having to re-join. Incidentally a membership card costs 74p and a 'Welcome pack' that new members receive costs £2.12 each. If you consider the joining fees that Gyms charge I don't think £3 can be considered unreasonable.

    More and more Ceroc venues are introducing laptops and swipe cards to improve the process.

    I hope this provides some clarity to the debate.

  10. #50
    Commercial Operator Gus's Avatar
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    How to set-up

    Curious. I work with Blitz and they dont have a membership card system. I think that they would benefit from one ... but it would be nice to go the whole hog and put in a swipe card system ... (at no cost to the punter). anyone suggest how you would go about this? are there (cheap-ish) all in one providers who can supply not just a series of sequentialy numbered cards, card reader and software?

    ...just a thought...

  11. #51
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    Originally posted by bradders

    More and more Ceroc venues are introducing laptops and swipe cards to improve the process.
    That could let you do some cool things like loyalty rewards "hey, you've been ten times this month, this class is free" and managing monthly passes (just pay once a month, computer remembers when you're paid up until).

    My only problem with loyalty reward programs is keeping track of all the little cards.

  12. #52
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    Originally posted by bradders
    Incidentally a membership card costs 74p and a 'Welcome pack' that new members receive costs £2.12 each.

    More and more Ceroc venues are introducing laptops and swipe cards to improve the process.
    What I particularly object to is paying a full membership every time I lose my card.

    So if a venue has a laptop with membership details on it, and I have lost my card, then I should be able to get a new membership card for just the cost of the card. They should be able to validate my id from other sources (bank cards, driving licence etc) and cancel the lost card. I don't even get offered the Welcome Pack again, so where does the £2.12 go?

    It costs Ceroc a lot more money - I have plenty of other places to go to dance, and will only fork out for a new Ceroc card when there is something special on (eg someone's birthday.)

    David

  13. #53
    Papa Smurf
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    What I particularly object to is paying a full membership every time I lose my card.
    indeed, thats just bad organisation on Cerocs part.

    Good reply from bradders , but do ceroc really have access to all ceroc members details from the card or is it just the locals ? i.e. I got my card from Edinburgh - could they have accessed my home address if i had collapsed on my many visits to London venues ? Theres still the issue of the wrong address being associated with the card, i would guess quite a high percentage of members have wrong info associated with their cards. If you moved house would you immediately phone ceroc HQ to change your details - do they even get requests like this ?

    This represents life membership
    If policy is to make people rejoin if they cannot produce the card then this statement is false!

  14. #54
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    Originally posted by DavidB
    What I particularly object to is paying a full membership every time I lose my card.
    Don't lose your card.

    You lose £1 every time you lose £1 Fact of life.

    Think of the £2 as a punishment for gumming up the works, holding up the queue, fixing up the database to recognise both cards. People will find their lost cards and want to use them. I have one in my wallet and another in my dance bag.

  15. #55
    Registered User John Gimber's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Gary
    That could let you do some cool things like loyalty rewards "hey, you've been ten times this month, this class is free" and managing monthly passes (just pay once a month, computer remembers when you're paid up until).

    My only problem with loyalty reward programs is keeping track of all the little cards.
    Easy way around this - we let people buy "bulk tickets" in advance, with space on for a fixed number of classes. The bulk ticket is purchased at what is effectively the "loyalty bonus" price, i.e. £13.50 for 4 classes rather than (4 x £4.50 = £18). They bring the ticket in, and get a box marked off each class. Once the ticket is full, they've done their x classes and earned the bonus - all paid for already. This also has the bonus that the dancers don't need to bring money to the classes - just the prepaid tickets, as we do free drinks too.

    John.

  16. #56
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    Originally posted by John Gimber
    Easy way around this - we let people buy "bulk tickets" in advance, with space on for a fixed number of classes. The bulk ticket is purchased at what is effectively the "loyalty bonus" price, i.e. £13.50 for 4 classes rather than (4 x £4.50 = £18). They bring the ticket in, and get a box marked off each class. Once the ticket is full, they've done their x classes and earned the bonus - all paid for already. This also has the bonus that the dancers don't need to bring money to the classes - just the prepaid tickets, as we do free drinks too.

    John.
    This sounds a bit like the way "Admit Ones" are run by Ceroc Central - you buy a block of 10 tickets at a discount, each ticket gets you into any class at a Ceroc Central venue (or indeed venues at other franchises that accept Admit Ones - the Ceroc.com website has some info about which venues accept Admit Ones).

    One thing I wonder about though - are Ceroc Admit Ones the same cost everywhere? Can I buy a block of Admit Ones from the Ceroc franshise with the cheapest price, and use them at another one?
    Love dance, will travel

  17. #57
    Registered User John Gimber's Avatar
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    Dunno - I'm coming from a Bristol LeRoc perspective. Not much CeRoc around here!

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