Ripping off new customers

[RobC]

Originally posted by Martin
Is this going to happen at "Ceroc Plus" (what's the go Simon) still got my Jive Bug card.... Will I get into fleet without being ripped off? - or shall we all "rejoin".

Currently at Ceroc Plus in Fleet, we are not strictly enforcing the "showing your membership card" thing, and we are not recording membership numbers as people arrive. However we are signing up new members and issuing them with cards.

We also have a time limited offer to exchange existing Ex-JiveBug membership cards with a new Ceroc card for free (although you do still have to fill out the form). So if you haven't been down to Fleet recently, now is a good time to pay us another visit.

[Graham W]

..visited Rebel roc myself & was also a bit taken aback with the membership vibe (thu Bristol might be 'down the road' from Surrey in Aus terms..I was hardly going to pop back to pick up the latest flyers) - the night out wasnt worth £8!! - hall a bit pokey..but in Kate's defence she does seem to have a friendly club type atmosphere going....

G

[Carla B]

On the basis that I have heard of people collapsing and sometimes dying on the dance floor, I would have thought that maintaining a list of personal details of members is a good idea.

Secondly, private members clubs have to maintain membership records to get around the licensing problems if you are to believe what door staff tell you.

And lastly with a serious terrorist threat in London I'm very happy that Ceroc knows whose in the room at any one time. I remember being very upset last year at the Champs having my bag searched, but quite honestly I only hope the same level of security is evident this year as you can't even go into a pub in the West End now without being searched.

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Carla B
And lastly with a serious terrorist threat in London I'm very happy that Ceroc knows whose in the room at any one time.

[cynical mode on]Have they added a new box to the form - "please tick here if you are a terrorist"? [cynical mode off]

J *sigh*

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Jayne
"please tick here if you are a terrorist"?

Comes under the same heading as "Have you ever taught at Hipsters?"

[RobC]

Originally posted by DavidB
Comes under the same heading as "Have you ever taught at Hipsters?"

Damn, that would have to be 'YES' then
No wonder they are dragging their feet on giving me the CTA training.....

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by DavidB
Comes under the same heading as "Have you ever taught at Hipsters?"

On a more serious note, I don't quite understand how Ceroc having your details helps if you die on the dance floor

Greg

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jayne
Have they added a new box to the form - "please tick here if you are a terrorist"?

You've seen the new swipe card readers at Ceroc venues?

Actually they're iris scanners to go with the new ID cards.

Chris

[Carla B]

REPLY TO SHEEPMAN

If someone were to collapse, then at least from their membership card Ceroc could ascertain who they were and where they lived.

Dancing is a physical activity and I see nothing wrong with the organiser knowing who I am.

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Carla B
If someone were to collapse, then at least from their membership card Ceroc could ascertain who they were and where they lived.

OK, but if that was me, all the bags in the place would have to be claimed first, hopefully there'd only be one unclaimed bag which would be assumed to be mine. Now anyone who's seen the contents of my bag (was it 121 items in it listed on another thread many months ago?) would know it is going to take another 10 minutes or so to search through that lot and find my membership card (if I remembered it that night). Then it would have to be run through the Ceroc database system, and then you might have identified me, though I could have changed addresses since I took out membership.
I think I'd prefer to take my chances that someone there knew me!

But I don't think that many people really object to membership, it's the fact that they have to pay for it, when the benefits are for the organisation, not the individual.

Greg

[RobC]

Originally posted by Sheepman
But I don't think that many people really object to membership, it's the fact that they have to pay for it, when the benefits are for the organisation, not the individual.

I agree. Even more so when the membership cards are changed due to a change in name / ownership and everyone is forced to 'rejoin'.

This is why we have a time-limited-offer for all existing JiveBug members to exchange their cards for a new Ceroc card when they come down to Ceroc Plus in Fleet - for FREE !

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by RobC
I agree.

[snip]

This is why we have a time-limited-offer

So why time-limited, then?

Chris

[Emma]

I've always regarded the membership card swiping/number collecting as the way that Ceroc (or indeed other organisations) ensures it's franchisees are paying the correct franchise fee. Business, innit? I'm always kindof surprised if I go to a venue and am not asked for my card or my number. Hipsters wouldn't need a membership scheme as it's not a franchise (er, is it?...correct me if I'm wrong).

I seem to remember (scraping through the memory banks a little) that after I'd joined Ceroc and paid my membership I got...er..a month...ish? of half-price entry, which certainly more than covered the measly £1.50 membership fee I paid...so in essence my membership was free, really.

I can see that if you are just up somewhere on a visit and attending a variety of different venues run by different organisations then the membership fee could be very irritating, but most of the places I go to would almost certainly waive that if you asked to speak to the franchisee/venue manager.

The swipe cards ought to speed up the entry process, I guess...and yes of course they are capturing data about where people dance as well as how many people are there (same as all those heinous loyalty cards and your credit and debit cards do), it's just quicker than the current paper system. Whether or not in 50 years or so anyone will be able to remember how to *write* is another issue!!

[RobC]

Originally posted by ChrisA
So why time-limited, then?

JiveBug still exists, and since Ceroc is a business like any other, we can't have new Dancers going to Bisley, signing up for JiveBug, then coming over to Fleet and expecting a free Ceroc membership as well, can we

Currently, we haven't set the time-limit in stone, so if an old regular who hasn't been around for a while decides to come back and dance at Fleet again, we can be flexible enough to accomodate them.

[Martin]

Originally posted by DavidB
Comes under the same heading as "Have you ever taught at Hipsters?"

Ahhh - guilty, maybe that's it then...

Seriously had no problems with Ceroc- even got in without "re-joining" in Scotland (although Franc did tell the door staff to charge me double as I came from Australia - fortunately the door staff took pity on me and only charged me once...)

It is the small fry companies who have classes in a limited area and expect travellers to pay extra to "join" their local company, having already traveled over 1 hour to get there. This discorages experienced dancers from visiting their venue.

I understand the need for membership for legal reasons, there is no sound reason to charge for this though.

"You can shop in Tesco's only if you pay a joining fee - oh if you want to shop in Asda you have to join Asda and pay again !!!!!!"

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by RobC
JiveBug still exists, and since Ceroc is a business like any other, we can't have new Dancers going to Bisley, signing up for JiveBug, then coming over to Fleet and expecting a free Ceroc membership as well, can we

Currently, we haven't set the time-limit in stone, so if an old regular who hasn't been around for a while decides to come back and dance at Fleet again, we can be flexible enough to accomodate them.

Point taken, and if you're flexible enough to cater for the old regulars, fair dos.

But it still comes back to Greg's point, which you agreed with, namely

Originally posted by Sheepman
But I don't think that many people really object to membership, it's the fact that they have to pay for it, when the benefits are for the organisation, not the individual.

Apart from the orgs that effectively make the membership free by offering cheap entry for a few visits or something equivalent it's still all for the benefit of the org, not the dancer.

Would you be happy with a supermarket loyalty card if

(a) you had to pay for it
(b) you got no benefit from it
(c) you couldn't shop without it?

If, of course, all the supermarkets behaved in exactly the same way, you'd have no option, which is exactly the case with the MJ venues.

Except one that I know of, of course

Chris

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Point taken, and if you're flexible enough to cater for the old regulars, fair dos.

But it still comes back to Greg's point, which you agreed with, namely

Apart from the orgs that effectively make the membership free by offering cheap entry for a few visits or something equivalent it's still all for the benefit of the org, not the dancer.

Would you be happy with a supermarket loyalty card if

(a) you had to pay for it
(b) you got no benefit from it
(c) you couldn't shop without it?

If, of course, all the supermarkets behaved in exactly the same way, you'd have no option, which is exactly the case with the MJ venues.

Except one that I know of, of course

Chris

The membership card and recording attendances help the organisation run better, which benefits all of the members. Joining ought to be a one time charge, and it paid for when it is incurred by whom it is incurred. It is good for the members, and fairly charged.

[Martin]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
The membership card and recording attendances help the organisation run better, which benefits all of the members. Joining ought to be a one time charge, and it paid for when it is incurred by whom it is incurred. It is good for the members, and fairly charged.

You have made similar statements earlier in the thread and then failed to back them up with any substantive evidence.

Please do enlighten us to exactly HOW recording attendance and membership cards (and charging for this) benifits the members and is good for the members.

I went to Hipsters last night, they do not have membership cards and did not feel in the slightest disadvantaged due to a lack of a card to carry with me.

[RobC]

Originally posted by Martin
Please do enlighten us to exactly HOW recording attendance and membership cards (and charging for this) benifits the members and is good for the members.

One way which springs to mind (though I have no idea if anyone actually does this) is to enable the venue to track changes in the demographics of the venue. By that, I don't mean tracking an individual and seeing when they come to the venue or not. What I mean is to use data mining techniques on the accumulated data, attaching a rudimentary 'skill level' to each customer, probably based on length of time since they registered in the absence of a better measure, and to monitor how many of each type of dancer come each week.

This information can then be fed back to the teachers who can then vary their routines to more accurately suit the capabilities of the people in the classes - hence benefiting the members.

It could also be used to monitor when a particular 'group' of dancers are no longer regularly attending the venue, and sending them offers to attract them back. For example, if you have a big influx of beginners, but some of your top dancer stop coming, a head count, or takings count won't show any problem, but the general standard in the venue will start to slip. If you know some of your top dancers are only coming 1 week in 3, you can send them 'personalised vouchers' to attract them back on the weeks they are less likely to attend, benefitting them with free/cheaper entry and the rest of the venue by maintaining a high standard of dancer.

Like I said, I have no idea if anyone actually does this kind of thing at the moment, but once we get the members database up and running in Fleet, it's definitely something I want to try and do.

[DavidB]

I once went to a dance in the states. The cost was $20. For members of the host club it was $8. Membership cost $15, but got you a copy of their newsletter, discounts at local dance shops, and a 1/2 hour private lesson with the instructor.

But the nicest thing was membership of ANY swing dance club got you in for $12. They had never heard of Ceroc, but still accepted their card.

David