Ripping off new customers

[Martin]

Having got back to the UK, picked up a wad of membership cards to various dance organisations, I thought I was set.

BUT NO - off I go to Woking to Katies dance, to get told "£5, where is your card" - well here it is goes I.
Not good enough, this says JK jive, we are called Rebel Rock - that will be £8 and you have to fill out more paperwork...

So what is the go, change your company name and charge everyone £3?

Is this going to happen at "Ceroc Plus" (what's the go Simon) still got my Jive Bug card.... Will I get into fleet without being ripped off? - or shall we all "rejoin".

Should we not be encoraging new customers and even letting them in half price for the first night?

Do you want new people to try out your venue, or is ripping extra money from them more important?

I took 2 Australians with me (well to be technically correct David B drove...) - who were also charged £3 each for the "pleasure" of being new customers.

So in total to try out a new (for me old, but no matter) venue it cost us £9 extra.

Is this going to happen all over the country?
Does ANYONE like new customers?

[Lounge Lizard]

Hi martin well at Hastings - the first class is free for beginners (and if anyone turns up after 9.30 they often get in free)
£5 ENTRY
7.30 T0 10.45
3 seperate dance areas
NO membership cards
5 different lessons each week
real dj (well me) not a mini disc player or laptop
loads of parking
licenced bar
capacity of venue 150
average number of dancers 50

peter

[Daniel Sandars]

This is an absolutely excellent point.

The benefits of membership schemes lie entirely with the club owners, in terms of capturing the dancer's personal info, but the costs lie entirely with the dancer.

Membership schemes may have their place in policing the dancefloor or for loyalty and reward.

All in all they need to be used far more flexibly, intelligently, critically and for the obvious benefit of dancers.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Daniel Sandars
All in all they need to be used far more flexibly, intelligently, critically and for the obvious benefit of dancers.

Membership cards are now being swiped with a card reader at Twickenham Ceroc.

Much less manual form filling by those at the desk...

... but it would be interesting to know exactly what the data has/will be used for. Franck?

Chirs

[Gus]

Originally posted by ChrisA
but it would be interesting to know exactly what the data has/will be used for. Franck?

Chirs

WE KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE

WE KNOW WHERE YOU DANCE

YOU ARE BEING ASSIMILATED

RESISTANCE IS FUILTE

.....etc. etc. etc.

[Chicky]

Originally posted by Martin
Should we not be encoraging new customers and even letting them in half price for the first night?

Do you want new people to try out your venue, or is ripping extra money from them more important?

........................
Does ANYONE like new customers?

I run Dance Riviera in Dartford and Swanley, Kent and we like new customers!!

We have a membership pack and people do have to join us, it costs £1.50 which is just reimbursing us for our costs, we make no money on that. The information they provide us, just gives us mainly email addresses to send newsletters, information on guest teach spots, special nights etc.

However, we have given new members free entry (with a flyer) when we've busked, we've also recently distributed 5000 postcards to attract new people, also with a free entry.

If people just turn up and are unsure, we let them in for free to see if they like it, they usually come back

Also, if people are from out of town and are unlike to return to us, if we know this, we just let them pay the £5 entry and not bother with the membership.

It's all about being flexible and not just seeing pound signs when people walk through the door.

[Martin]

Originally posted by Chicky
Also, if people are from out of town and are unlike to return to us, if we know this, we just let them pay the £5 entry and not bother with the membership.

It's all about being flexible and not just seeing pound signs when people walk through the door.

I like this idea, come on, with an address of Australia do I really need to join several clubs?

Even with people who already have danced for years, do they really need a beginners pack? So the cost is £1.50 (better than £3) , that is still your overhead to your new customers who you need to encorage to want to come back to you.
Think how much is costs to get one new person through the door in advertising.

Ceroc were good to me and did not re-charge me as did happen in Woking.
Last year they simply replaced my old red card with an up to date one and asked for my e-mail address. This year they then swapped that for a swipe card (no extra cash).

I do not mind paying to get in, but paying a joining fee several times over to several companies is a joke.

Is there anyone who thinks paying memberships is benificial to people who can already dance but want to support your venue?

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Martin
I like this idea, come on, with an address of Australia do I really need to join several clubs?

Even with people who already have danced for years, do they really need a beginners pack? So the cost is £1.50 (better than £3) , that is still your overhead to your new customers who you need to encorage to want to come back to you.
Think how much is costs to get one new person through the door in advertising.

Ceroc were good to me and did not re-charge me as did happen in Woking.
Last year they simply replaced my old red card with an up to date one and asked for my e-mail address. This year they then swapped that for a swipe card (no extra cash).

I do not mind paying to get in, but paying a joining fee several times over to several companies is a joke.

Is there anyone who thinks paying memberships is benificial to people who can already dance but want to support your venue?

The information collected on membership forms is used to deliver a better and more efficient service, and members benefit from it.

Delivering the right product encourages people to come back.

The diversity of companies to choose from has to be paid for, the customer benefits.

As shown on the link Ceroc Central gives discount vouchers to new members, they more than recoup the extra charge. One of the problems for its database is lapsed experienced dancers joining again as newcomers.

Beginner guide

Some newcomers arrive with a promotional or gift Admit 1 free card. Some pay £2 extra on the normal price. The database allows the management to compare results. Policy is not dictated by chance. The franchisee benefits and the customer benefits, from having a well run business.

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
The information collected on membership forms is used to deliver a better and more efficient service, and members benefit from it.

Delivering the right product encourages people to come back.

The diversity of companies to choose from has to be paid for, the customer benefits.

Ummm. Can you please back this up in any actual way that this has happened?

I think that the only thing I've ever seen as a result of filling out the membership forms, is ending up on email lists that I don't want to be on, telling me about dances all over the country, that I'm not going to ever go to. These days, I just make up random details if any MJ organisation ever puts a form in front of me when I go to a class in a part of the country I've not danced at before.

Sorry, I'm not anti-ceroc, and I'm not having a go, but that just sounds like the sort of trite thing that companies who want you to fill out membership forms come out with. Did you copy it directly from the website?

Trampy

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Ummm. Can you please back this up in any actual way that this has happened?

Sorry, I'm not anti-ceroc, and I'm not having a go, but that just sounds like the sort of trite thing that companies who want you to fill out membership forms come out with. Did you copy it directly from the website?

Trampy

ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH ..... NNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I have to agree with Trampy

I must admit that when I was looking to go independent I seriously looked at bringing in swipe cards and backing it up with in integrated database and marketing tools ... BUT that was mainly for my benefit. The best the punters would have got would have been more focused marketing and the occasional 'Buy 10 get 1 free' type promotions. Seems like some Ceroc clubs don’t even do that! To be fair (against my nature I know) I do remember that Ceroc Central used to (still do?) run a loyalty scheme which at least was giving something back ... the more acceptable face of targeted marketing

[Gadget]

Wouldn't it be better if there was a feed-back form that got given on recipt of membership (after 'membership form' was completed)
There would be a 'suggestions box' to post them into at the end of the evening and it could contain basic questions on music, dancing, enjoyment and whether they would return (comments section as well). This would give much more relevant information to the organisers in terms of giving better service to the customer. It may also help flag up any potential problems and why some people leave - never to return.

Like Tramp, I can't really see how a membership form really gets any relevant data back to the organisers.

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Gadget
It may also help flag up any potential problems and why some people leave - never to return.

Absolutely! The hard part should be getting people through the door for that first time, but plenty do not come back. It may be that organisations do have suggestion boxes, but how prominent are they? I think I've only ever noticed one once. OK this isn't going to get reactions from many non-returnees, and may even be abused by some, but if my punters (speaking metaphorically) had a bad night, I would want to know why.

Greg

[Martin]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
The information collected on membership forms is used to deliver a better and more efficient service, and members benefit from it.

Delivering the right product encourages people to come back.

The diversity of companies to choose from has to be paid for, the customer benefits.

As shown on the link Ceroc Central gives discount vouchers to new members, they more than recoup the extra charge. One of the problems for its database is lapsed experienced dancers joining again as newcomers.

Beginner guide

Some newcomers arrive with a promotional or gift Admit 1 free card. Some pay £2 extra on the normal price. The database allows the management to compare results. Policy is not dictated by chance. The franchisee benefits and the customer benefits, from having a well run business.

This sounds like it has been taken from a Ceroc manual...

Since when has me filling out a membership card (which does not ask for feedback) give me a "better and more efficient service"?

As to "The diversity of companies to choose from has to be paid for" - sure we pay every week and they are there to take the profit, why disadvantage new customers by charging them extra?

"One of the problems for its database is lapsed experienced dancers joining again as newcomers."
Should this read One of the problems is that when you forget your card you are required to join AGAIN at some venues, AND pay again AND get put on the database AGAIN

I am not bashing the Ceroc organisation, far from it, they have replaced my cards twice for free (even though I had to fill out those forms AGAIN) - This is a general to all those who charge visitors and new customers more money to get in by something called membership.

"the customer benefits" - now this is classic HOW do I and my friends benefit by paying a joining fee at each venue I visit - please I would LOVE to know more on this one... If nothing else please do expand on this

By the way money has nothing to do with personal details, you can fill out a new customer form without paying extra money.

[Daniel Sandars]

Of all the memberships that I have Modern Jive stands out. All the others entitle members to tangible benefits in return for signing on and/or paying fees. The benefits are automatic discounts at events, early notice of events, members only social events, democratic representation within the organisation and often informative news and magazines.

Why not make membership elective in return for discounts at all future events the dancer returns for?

Another idea...? Why not set up an dance-club affiliation scheme, especially in the London area, where if a dancer is a member of any one outfit they are welcome at any other.

BTW In my experience it is far harder than it seems to engage dancers in a meaningful rapport to gain feedback about your events, tastes in music, etc.

Dan

[Sheepman]

Originally posted by Daniel Sandars
an dance-club affiliation scheme, especially in the London area, where if a dancer is a member of any one outfit they are welcome at any other.

The perfectly aerodynamic pigs are accelerating up the runway . . .

IMO the best London venues/organisations don't have any membership requirements anyway.

Greg

[Martin]

Originally posted by Sheepman

The perfectly aerodynamic pigs are accelerating up the runway . . .

IMO the best London venues/organisations don't have any membership requirements anyway.

Greg

Is that so ... do not want to promote any one... BUT did go to Hip***rs (understand now a rude word) and no membership.

I am sorry Scotland (anti-hip***rs people) BUT had such a great night Tuesday, met lots of forumities...wonderful people.

Only trouble is getting the oppertunity to dance with everyone.

So am I going to "pay the premium" in Scotland to be able to dance OR do you like new customers?

Please tell?

Humble Aussie people wanting to dance and not get ripped off......

When we come to the Scots venue do we have to pay extra, or do you value new people to your classes?


This is a good test, so does Scotland want to encorage dancers or take the p*ss.

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Martin
When we come to the Scots venue do we have to pay extra, or do you value new people to your classes?

Not a class but flat price at the door at R66 in Edinburgh tomorrow night....

[John Gimber]

Well, for what it's worth... I don't think LeRoc has any form of membership at all!

Each class runs on it's own merit, and doesn't charge membership for anything as far as I'm aware.

We (at Elmgrove LeRoc in Bristol) do sweeten the deal for new people: normal price is £4.50 a night, but on the first night you pay £5. This gives you a ticket, where you can come back again for a free extra class, any time you want.

We also do a "free class for every friend you introduce" kind of thing, which is a great incentive for people to bring others along. You bring 3 friends, you're given chits for 3 classes of your choosing.

On top of this we do bulk tickets - 4 weeks' worth, where you save nearly an entire class with each ticket.

I think John Eastman's Clifton LeRoc class does a loyalty points system - after x weeks you get a free class.

I believe Trinity LeRoc also does a "bring a friend" scheme.

Not sure about the other classes in Bristol though.

We're all a bit cut-throat in Bristol, so trying to wangle extra money out of customers just isn't a game we can play.

John.

[Lou]

Originally posted by John Gimber
We're all a bit cut-throat in Bristol, so trying to wangle extra money out of customers just isn't a game we can play.

But you would do, if you could get away with it? Or did I read that wrong, John?

keeping hands firmly in pocket.....

[John Gimber]

Well now, that would be telling!

No, so long as we cover costs and manage to put a bit aside for the occasional party that's all we're after!

We haven't upped our prices since I started there, which was... ummm... 1997, so it would have been easy to make a large profit by claiming "inflation", but in reality I think we (in fact all classes in the area) offer good value for money, as they're all about the same price I think.

John.